1.4 - better from Jenkins

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Re: 1.4 - better from Jenkins

Schwab,Wilhelm K
That's precisely what I'm trying to do.  Sig's answer might provide a piece of the puzzle, but I still have to figure out whether/why/how the problem really does persist after executing code and not saving the image.  I added some snapshots thinking I could take success as it comes and repeat steps that failure, but I removed them all (I think) when I started to discover that once hobbled, the image remains hobbled, saved or not.  Weird.

For all I know, I have made this reproducible.  One response said essentially, "yeah, I sometimes just load the packages MC would load" - hardly the way one speaks of a robust infrastructure.



________________________________________
From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] on behalf of Marcus Denker [[hidden email]]
Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 5:26 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 - better from Jenkins

On Feb 10, 2012, at 11:22 AM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:

> Dale,
>
> I'm not "complaining," I'm stating facts and asking for advice.  Not only did I state that I produced a "big" debug log, I also POSTED a smaller one.  If you mean something different by a "stack trace," can you provide some instructions for how to obtain it?
>
What we need is a description of how to re-produce the problem.
Do not think that anyone can (or even wants to help) if you just say "I did something and than I got strange results".

Make it reproducable, and then add a bug report.

        Marcus

--
Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de



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Re: 1.4 - better from Jenkins

Nick
Hi Bill,

I've reading about your trails with Monticello/Metacello and been surprised about all the difficulties you are having. I frequently load fairly complex configurations on top of Pharo 1.3 without a problem. 

You can flush Monticello caches with:

MCMethodDefinition cachedDefinitions removeAll.
MCFileBasedRepository allSubInstancesDo: [:ea | ea flushCache].

and try removing the 'package-cache' folder from the folder containing your image.

other than that, as others have said if you can isolate the problem we stand a chance of helping you

Nick

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Re: 1.4 - better from Jenkins

Igor Stasenko
In reply to this post by Schwab,Wilhelm K
On 10 February 2012 11:33, Schwab,Wilhelm K <[hidden email]> wrote:
> That's precisely what I'm trying to do.  Sig's answer might provide a piece of the puzzle, but I still have to figure out whether/why/how the problem really does persist after executing code and not saving the image.  I added some snapshots thinking I could take success as it comes and repeat steps that failure, but I removed them all (I think) when I started to discover that once hobbled, the image remains hobbled, saved or not.  Weird.
>
yes, the problem is when you have an error and i had wrong idea to
suspend a process before scheduling request to open debugger on it :)

> For all I know, I have made this reproducible.  One response said essentially, "yeah, I sometimes just load the packages MC would load" - hardly the way one speaks of a robust infrastructure.
>
>
>
> ________________________________________
> From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] on behalf of Marcus Denker [[hidden email]]
> Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 5:26 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 - better from Jenkins
>
> On Feb 10, 2012, at 11:22 AM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
>
>> Dale,
>>
>> I'm not "complaining," I'm stating facts and asking for advice.  Not only did I state that I produced a "big" debug log, I also POSTED a smaller one.  If you mean something different by a "stack trace," can you provide some instructions for how to obtain it?
>>
> What we need is a description of how to re-produce the problem.
> Do not think that anyone can (or even wants to help) if you just say "I did something and than I got strange results".
>
> Make it reproducable, and then add a bug report.
>
>        Marcus
>
> --
> Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de
>
>
>



--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.

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Re: 1.4 - better from Jenkins

Ben Coman
In reply to this post by Schwab,Wilhelm K
Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:

> One snag: I'm still getting strangely broken images (won't open process browser or debugger) after trying to download some things.  I have mirrored squeak source, BUT, some things (SIXX, ODBC) don't appear to have working configs, so I'm trying to grab the latest packages, and *that* might not be mirrored.  I might need to specify the mirror server in my code to make them work.
>
> Still, I don't get how simply asking MC to download something will permanently mar the image w/o my doing an explicit save.  Does MC snapshot before/during an attempted load?  It seems very misguided that an innocent attempt to load something can hobble an image??
>
> One other crazy possibility: is killing a vm from the (Ubunutu) system monitor somehow not sufficient to clear what is running?  Dumb question?  Maybe, but I'm stumped.  Any ideas?
>
> Bill
>
>
>
> ________________________________________
> From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] on behalf of blake [[hidden email]]
> Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 2:58 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 - better from Jenkins
>
> I just downloaded the latest CogWin and Pharo 1.4 image and I got
> "WARNING: Manufactured file handle detected!" at the bottom, and popup
> full of startup errors.
>  
A couple of days ago tried Pharo-1.4-14315 and with cogwin_r2522.   I
had the same warning, with a debugger showing "Error: Got startup errors"
in method SmalltalkImage snapshot:andQuit: "  
at line:
    startupErrors isEmpty
        ifFalse: [ self error: 'Got startup errors ' ].
where startupErrors = an OrderedCollection(ShouldBeImplemented:
#preferencesFolder should have been implemented in DosFileDirectory class)

So I thought I may as well try implementing
DosFileDirectory>>preferencesFolder - which I've left as a comment on
ISSUE 5255. <http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=5255>
A nice side effect of this was that all the "WARNING: Manufactured file
handle detected!" went away.  Reverting this change reintroduces the
warnings.

cheers, -ben

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Debugger hanging... was Re: 1.4 - better from Jenkins

Ben Coman
While I was working towards implementing
DosFileDirectory>>preferencesFolder & >>preferencesGeneralFolder
I was stepping through: SmalltalkImage>>snapshot:andQuit:
did a: <Restart>
and then stepped down to:  Cursor write show
at which point the debugger hung the image.

Now I guess theres an equal chance this is not really an issue as
something "special" might be happening here straddling the save point.  
Just thought I would report it for review.

To reproduce on non-Windows you could probably set preferencesFolder &
preferencesGeneralFolder on your platform to self shouldBeImplemented
and proceed from the debugger that comes up.

SmalltalkImage>>snapshot: save andQuit: quit
    | snapshotResult resuming startupErrors |
    Object flushDependents.
    Object flushEvents.
    self addSnapshotRecord: save andQuit: quit.
    self processShutDownList: quit.
    Cursor write show.   <--------Image Hangs Here after a <Restart> of
the method while debugging following a resume..

cheers, -ben


Ben Coman wrote:

> Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
>> One snag: I'm still getting strangely broken images (won't open
>> process browser or debugger) after trying to download some things.  I
>> have mirrored squeak source, BUT, some things (SIXX, ODBC) don't
>> appear to have working configs, so I'm trying to grab the latest
>> packages, and *that* might not be mirrored.  I might need to specify
>> the mirror server in my code to make them work.
>>
>> Still, I don't get how simply asking MC to download something will
>> permanently mar the image w/o my doing an explicit save.  Does MC
>> snapshot before/during an attempted load?  It seems very misguided
>> that an innocent attempt to load something can hobble an image??
>>
>> One other crazy possibility: is killing a vm from the (Ubunutu)
>> system monitor somehow not sufficient to clear what is running?  Dumb
>> question?  Maybe, but I'm stumped.  Any ideas?
>>
>> Bill
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________________
>> From: [hidden email]
>> [[hidden email]] on behalf of blake
>> [[hidden email]]
>> Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 2:58 PM
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 - better from Jenkins
>>
>> I just downloaded the latest CogWin and Pharo 1.4 image and I got
>> "WARNING: Manufactured file handle detected!" at the bottom, and popup
>> full of startup errors.
>>  
> A couple of days ago tried Pharo-1.4-14315 and with cogwin_r2522.   I
> had the same warning, with a debugger showing "Error: Got startup errors"
> in method SmalltalkImage snapshot:andQuit: "  at line:
>    startupErrors isEmpty
>        ifFalse: [ self error: 'Got startup errors ' ].
> where startupErrors = an OrderedCollection(ShouldBeImplemented:
> #preferencesFolder should have been implemented in DosFileDirectory
> class)
>
> So I thought I may as well try implementing
> DosFileDirectory>>preferencesFolder - which I've left as a comment on
> ISSUE 5255. <http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=5255>
> A nice side effect of this was that all the "WARNING: Manufactured
> file handle detected!" went away.  Reverting this change reintroduces
> the warnings.
>
> cheers, -ben
>
>


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Re: 1.4 - better from Jenkins

Dale Henrichs
In reply to this post by Schwab,Wilhelm K
Bill,

I guess I missed the Metacello stack and I can't seem to find it... if you could point me to the post with your Metacello stack in it I will be glad to take a loook.

Dale

----- Original Message -----
| From: "Wilhelm K Schwab" <[hidden email]>
| To: [hidden email]
| Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 2:21:30 AM
| Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 - better from Jenkins
|
| Dale,
|
| I'm not "complaining," I'm stating facts and asking for advice.  Not
| only did I state that I produced a "big" debug log, I also POSTED a
| smaller one.  If you mean something different by a "stack trace,"
| can you provide some instructions for how to obtain it?
|
| As for "continuing beyond errors" - AFAIK, *I* am not saving the
| image in a confused state, but *something* appears to be doing just
| that.  Yes, I "ignored errors" in the sense that I used the task
| manager to kill off an image that was flailing trying to download
| packages, and was mystified to discover that, without an explicit
| save on my part, the image "woke up" trying to do the same fruitless
| exercise.  Several iterations of trying to unravel that led to the
| large log.  I then removed the log, did one cycle, and posted the
| log from that.
|
| Bill
|
|
|
|
| ________________________________________
| From: [hidden email]
| [[hidden email]] on behalf of Dale
| Henrichs [[hidden email]]
| Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 8:33 PM
| To: [hidden email]
| Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 - better from Jenkins
|
| Bill,
|
| The last time you complained about Metacello being broken I asked you
| for a stack trace and I have seen no stack trace, although I believe
| that you were able to confirm that Metacello worked fine until you
| loaded some of your own code into the system ...
|
| Here you are complaining again ... if you don't provide specifics,
| the issues cannot be resolved ...
|
| There are apparently a lot of moving parts in your system, so it
| takes great attention to detail to get such a system running
| smoothly. The fact that you don't provide specifics tells me that
| perhaps you are not paying attention to the details ...
|
| When you are porting to a new environment (for you) like Pharo 1.4,
| you should stop and isolate the FIRST ERROR that you encounter ...
| in a complicated system once an error occurs, all bets are off ...
| You MUST pay attention to details ...
|
| You state that you have a giant debug log ... so it sounds like you
| tried to keep moving forward in the face of initial errors...I say
| good luck with that approach!
|
| If you post a Metacello stack trace I can very likely tell you what
| went wrong, if you prefer to continue to whine and complain about
| Metacello without even attempting to help me characterize the
| issues, then I will leave you to your own devices and you can can
| complain about Metacello all you want --- I won't be paying
| attention any more:)
|
| Dale
|
|
| ----- Original Message -----
| | From: "Wilhelm K Schwab" <[hidden email]>
| | To: [hidden email]
| | Sent: Thursday, February 9, 2012 4:26:27 PM
| | Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 - better from Jenkins
| |
| | I think you might be right about loading the .mcz files.  But I
| | don't
| | have an expectation other than what has been said here many times:
| | that Metacello is the future.  So far, I don't see it.
| |
| | Bill
| |
| |
| | ________________________________________
| | From: [hidden email]
| | [[hidden email]] on behalf of Yanni
| | Chiu [[hidden email]]
| | Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 6:22 PM
| | To: [hidden email]
| | Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 - better from Jenkins
| |
| | On 09/02/12 5:39 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
| | > Sven,
| | >
| | > Fair enough, but the game plan is for people to use Metacello
| | > configurations to load what they need to build an image.  I am
| | > attempting to do just that, and am reporting (rather negative so
| | > far) experience, with debug logs.
| | >
| | > Pharo's fault or not, something is broken.  But if Pharo is going
| | > to send users into the current state of Metacello, the weather
| | > around the lighthouse is going to be grim.
| | >
| | > Interesting ideas about the package cache being damaged.  Maybe
| | > the
| | > logs will reveal something??
| |
| | You might want to check the package cache for 0-length .mcz files,
| | which
| | might happen when the server is down.
| |
| | When I upgrade to a new image version, I just start my build
| | process
| | with the new image, and cross my fingers. If it fails, then I do it
| | manually with the build script in a workspace - select each
| | framework/package and "doIt". Sometimes I run the framework's
| | tests,
| | after each step.
| |
| | I load all "community" code first, unless I have extensions to this
| | code. Sometimes I've had to upgrade to a newer version of the
| | framework,
| | if available. At other times, I had to create patches because I was
| | tracking the Pharo updates (so no fixed version was available yet).
| |
| | In extreme cases, I've had to generate the list of packages that
| | Metacello would load, then load each .mcz individually.
| |
| | Typically, I'd do "save image as" at various points, to be able to
| | get
| | back to the problem code, more quickly.
| |
| | I think you're pretty much following a similar process, except the
| | expectation that a Metacello configuration should just load without
| | problems on Pharo1.4-unstable is too optimistic.
| |
| |
| |
| |
|
|
|

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Re: 1.4 - better from Jenkins

Schwab,Wilhelm K
In reply to this post by Ben Coman
Dumb question, *where* do you see these warnings?  Just curious, because a bad snapshot/startup seems a likely (if not mysterious) part of my troubles.  

BTW, sleep intervened, but I did have some additional success after clearing the mc caches.

Bill

________________________________________
From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] on behalf of Ben Coman [[hidden email]]
Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 12:21 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 - better from Jenkins

Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:

> One snag: I'm still getting strangely broken images (won't open process browser or debugger) after trying to download some things.  I have mirrored squeak source, BUT, some things (SIXX, ODBC) don't appear to have working configs, so I'm trying to grab the latest packages, and *that* might not be mirrored.  I might need to specify the mirror server in my code to make them work.
>
> Still, I don't get how simply asking MC to download something will permanently mar the image w/o my doing an explicit save.  Does MC snapshot before/during an attempted load?  It seems very misguided that an innocent attempt to load something can hobble an image??
>
> One other crazy possibility: is killing a vm from the (Ubunutu) system monitor somehow not sufficient to clear what is running?  Dumb question?  Maybe, but I'm stumped.  Any ideas?
>
> Bill
>
>
>
> ________________________________________
> From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] on behalf of blake [[hidden email]]
> Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 2:58 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 - better from Jenkins
>
> I just downloaded the latest CogWin and Pharo 1.4 image and I got
> "WARNING: Manufactured file handle detected!" at the bottom, and popup
> full of startup errors.
>
A couple of days ago tried Pharo-1.4-14315 and with cogwin_r2522.   I
had the same warning, with a debugger showing "Error: Got startup errors"
in method SmalltalkImage snapshot:andQuit: "
at line:
    startupErrors isEmpty
        ifFalse: [ self error: 'Got startup errors ' ].
where startupErrors = an OrderedCollection(ShouldBeImplemented:
#preferencesFolder should have been implemented in DosFileDirectory class)

So I thought I may as well try implementing
DosFileDirectory>>preferencesFolder - which I've left as a comment on
ISSUE 5255. <http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=5255>
A nice side effect of this was that all the "WARNING: Manufactured file
handle detected!" went away.  Reverting this change reintroduces the
warnings.

cheers, -ben


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Re: 1.4 - better from Jenkins

Yanni Chiu
In reply to this post by Schwab,Wilhelm K
On 10/02/12 5:33 AM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
>
> For all I know, I have made this reproducible.

I must have missed the steps to reproduce it. Can you repeat them:
- what Pharo-1.4 image are you starting from?
- what doIt's are you executing, up to the point you see a problem?

 >   One response said
> essentially, "yeah, I sometimes just load the packages MC would load"
> - hardly the way one speaks of a robust infrastructure.

If you're loading configurations into Pharo-1.4-unstable, you're doing a
porting task. Pharo1.4 is under development and is a work in progress.
It's quite possible that a package you're trying to load does not work
on the particular Pharo-1.4-unstable you're using.

This says nothing about "robust infrastructure". When I said to load the
MC packages individually, that was the process you might need to follow
to debug a problem with that package on Pharo-1.4-unstable.


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Re: 1.4 - better from Jenkins

Schwab,Wilhelm K
In reply to this post by Dale Henrichs
Dale,

This might not be what you want.  If not, please outline what I need to do to get exactly what you need and I will do it to the best of my ability.  

Attached is a debug log from a measured amount of the badness.  The huge one I mentioned had been building up over many experiments, and it took me a while to notice same.  Once I did, I deleted the log, fiddled some more, and captured the attached zip file.

Bill

________________________________________
From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] on behalf of Dale Henrichs [[hidden email]]
Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 12:57 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 - better from Jenkins

Bill,

I guess I missed the Metacello stack and I can't seem to find it... if you could point me to the post with your Metacello stack in it I will be glad to take a loook.

Dale

----- Original Message -----
| From: "Wilhelm K Schwab" <[hidden email]>
| To: [hidden email]
| Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 2:21:30 AM
| Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 - better from Jenkins
|
| Dale,
|
| I'm not "complaining," I'm stating facts and asking for advice.  Not
| only did I state that I produced a "big" debug log, I also POSTED a
| smaller one.  If you mean something different by a "stack trace,"
| can you provide some instructions for how to obtain it?
|
| As for "continuing beyond errors" - AFAIK, *I* am not saving the
| image in a confused state, but *something* appears to be doing just
| that.  Yes, I "ignored errors" in the sense that I used the task
| manager to kill off an image that was flailing trying to download
| packages, and was mystified to discover that, without an explicit
| save on my part, the image "woke up" trying to do the same fruitless
| exercise.  Several iterations of trying to unravel that led to the
| large log.  I then removed the log, did one cycle, and posted the
| log from that.
|
| Bill
|
|
|
|
| ________________________________________
| From: [hidden email]
| [[hidden email]] on behalf of Dale
| Henrichs [[hidden email]]
| Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 8:33 PM
| To: [hidden email]
| Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 - better from Jenkins
|
| Bill,
|
| The last time you complained about Metacello being broken I asked you
| for a stack trace and I have seen no stack trace, although I believe
| that you were able to confirm that Metacello worked fine until you
| loaded some of your own code into the system ...
|
| Here you are complaining again ... if you don't provide specifics,
| the issues cannot be resolved ...
|
| There are apparently a lot of moving parts in your system, so it
| takes great attention to detail to get such a system running
| smoothly. The fact that you don't provide specifics tells me that
| perhaps you are not paying attention to the details ...
|
| When you are porting to a new environment (for you) like Pharo 1.4,
| you should stop and isolate the FIRST ERROR that you encounter ...
| in a complicated system once an error occurs, all bets are off ...
| You MUST pay attention to details ...
|
| You state that you have a giant debug log ... so it sounds like you
| tried to keep moving forward in the face of initial errors...I say
| good luck with that approach!
|
| If you post a Metacello stack trace I can very likely tell you what
| went wrong, if you prefer to continue to whine and complain about
| Metacello without even attempting to help me characterize the
| issues, then I will leave you to your own devices and you can can
| complain about Metacello all you want --- I won't be paying
| attention any more:)
|
| Dale
|
|
| ----- Original Message -----
| | From: "Wilhelm K Schwab" <[hidden email]>
| | To: [hidden email]
| | Sent: Thursday, February 9, 2012 4:26:27 PM
| | Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 - better from Jenkins
| |
| | I think you might be right about loading the .mcz files.  But I
| | don't
| | have an expectation other than what has been said here many times:
| | that Metacello is the future.  So far, I don't see it.
| |
| | Bill
| |
| |
| | ________________________________________
| | From: [hidden email]
| | [[hidden email]] on behalf of Yanni
| | Chiu [[hidden email]]
| | Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 6:22 PM
| | To: [hidden email]
| | Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 - better from Jenkins
| |
| | On 09/02/12 5:39 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
| | > Sven,
| | >
| | > Fair enough, but the game plan is for people to use Metacello
| | > configurations to load what they need to build an image.  I am
| | > attempting to do just that, and am reporting (rather negative so
| | > far) experience, with debug logs.
| | >
| | > Pharo's fault or not, something is broken.  But if Pharo is going
| | > to send users into the current state of Metacello, the weather
| | > around the lighthouse is going to be grim.
| | >
| | > Interesting ideas about the package cache being damaged.  Maybe
| | > the
| | > logs will reveal something??
| |
| | You might want to check the package cache for 0-length .mcz files,
| | which
| | might happen when the server is down.
| |
| | When I upgrade to a new image version, I just start my build
| | process
| | with the new image, and cross my fingers. If it fails, then I do it
| | manually with the build script in a workspace - select each
| | framework/package and "doIt". Sometimes I run the framework's
| | tests,
| | after each step.
| |
| | I load all "community" code first, unless I have extensions to this
| | code. Sometimes I've had to upgrade to a newer version of the
| | framework,
| | if available. At other times, I had to create patches because I was
| | tracking the Pharo updates (so no fixed version was available yet).
| |
| | In extreme cases, I've had to generate the list of packages that
| | Metacello would load, then load each .mcz individually.
| |
| | Typically, I'd do "save image as" at various points, to be able to
| | get
| | back to the problem code, more quickly.
| |
| | I think you're pretty much following a similar process, except the
| | expectation that a Metacello configuration should just load without
| | problems on Pharo1.4-unstable is too optimistic.
| |
| |
| |
| |
|
|
|


PharoDebug.log.zip (35K) Download Attachment
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Re: Debugger hanging... was Re: 1.4 - better from Jenkins

Schwab,Wilhelm K
In reply to this post by Ben Coman
This is interesting.  I am seeing images with behavior that should have not been saved, but was, *and* sometimes oddly flashing cursors and debuggers not opening.  Where there's smoke, there's fire??

Bill

________________________________________
From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] on behalf of Ben Coman [[hidden email]]
Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 12:42 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Pharo-project] Debugger hanging... was Re: 1.4 - better from  Jenkins

While I was working towards implementing
DosFileDirectory>>preferencesFolder & >>preferencesGeneralFolder
I was stepping through: SmalltalkImage>>snapshot:andQuit:
did a: <Restart>
and then stepped down to:  Cursor write show
at which point the debugger hung the image.

Now I guess theres an equal chance this is not really an issue as
something "special" might be happening here straddling the save point.
Just thought I would report it for review.

To reproduce on non-Windows you could probably set preferencesFolder &
preferencesGeneralFolder on your platform to self shouldBeImplemented
and proceed from the debugger that comes up.

SmalltalkImage>>snapshot: save andQuit: quit
    | snapshotResult resuming startupErrors |
    Object flushDependents.
    Object flushEvents.
    self addSnapshotRecord: save andQuit: quit.
    self processShutDownList: quit.
    Cursor write show.   <--------Image Hangs Here after a <Restart> of
the method while debugging following a resume..

cheers, -ben


Ben Coman wrote:

> Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
>> One snag: I'm still getting strangely broken images (won't open
>> process browser or debugger) after trying to download some things.  I
>> have mirrored squeak source, BUT, some things (SIXX, ODBC) don't
>> appear to have working configs, so I'm trying to grab the latest
>> packages, and *that* might not be mirrored.  I might need to specify
>> the mirror server in my code to make them work.
>>
>> Still, I don't get how simply asking MC to download something will
>> permanently mar the image w/o my doing an explicit save.  Does MC
>> snapshot before/during an attempted load?  It seems very misguided
>> that an innocent attempt to load something can hobble an image??
>>
>> One other crazy possibility: is killing a vm from the (Ubunutu)
>> system monitor somehow not sufficient to clear what is running?  Dumb
>> question?  Maybe, but I'm stumped.  Any ideas?
>>
>> Bill
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________________
>> From: [hidden email]
>> [[hidden email]] on behalf of blake
>> [[hidden email]]
>> Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 2:58 PM
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 - better from Jenkins
>>
>> I just downloaded the latest CogWin and Pharo 1.4 image and I got
>> "WARNING: Manufactured file handle detected!" at the bottom, and popup
>> full of startup errors.
>>
> A couple of days ago tried Pharo-1.4-14315 and with cogwin_r2522.   I
> had the same warning, with a debugger showing "Error: Got startup errors"
> in method SmalltalkImage snapshot:andQuit: "  at line:
>    startupErrors isEmpty
>        ifFalse: [ self error: 'Got startup errors ' ].
> where startupErrors = an OrderedCollection(ShouldBeImplemented:
> #preferencesFolder should have been implemented in DosFileDirectory
> class)
>
> So I thought I may as well try implementing
> DosFileDirectory>>preferencesFolder - which I've left as a comment on
> ISSUE 5255. <http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=5255>
> A nice side effect of this was that all the "WARNING: Manufactured
> file handle detected!" went away.  Reverting this change reintroduces
> the warnings.
>
> cheers, -ben
>
>



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Re: 1.4 - better from Jenkins

Dale Henrichs
In reply to this post by Schwab,Wilhelm K
Bill,

This would be exactly the type of information that I would need, except that there is no trace of Metacello in the attached log ...

In your mail, you implied that you had posted a small stack that was from a problem you had while using Metacello. The attached log has no trace of Metacello on the stack ...

I don't have the time or patience to teach you how to develop in Smalltalk, but if you have specific issues with Metacello I am very interested in addressing them.

You have been making statements about Metacello that, until I see an actual stack trace with Metacello on the stack, I will assume are unfounded, which is your prerogative.

In the future if you have a stack trace with Metacello on the stack please submit a Metacello bug[1] with the stack trace included, otherwise I won't be paying attention, which is my prerogative.

Dale

[1] http://code.google.com/p/metacello/issues/entry

----- Original Message -----
| From: "Wilhelm K Schwab" <[hidden email]>
| To: [hidden email]
| Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 10:06:10 AM
| Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 - better from Jenkins
|
| Dale,
|
| This might not be what you want.  If not, please outline what I need
| to do to get exactly what you need and I will do it to the best of
| my ability.
|
| Attached is a debug log from a measured amount of the badness.  The
| huge one I mentioned had been building up over many experiments, and
| it took me a while to notice same.  Once I did, I deleted the log,
| fiddled some more, and captured the attached zip file.
|
| Bill
|
| ________________________________________
| From: [hidden email]
| [[hidden email]] on behalf of Dale
| Henrichs [[hidden email]]
| Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 12:57 PM
| To: [hidden email]
| Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 - better from Jenkins
|
| Bill,
|
| I guess I missed the Metacello stack and I can't seem to find it...
| if you could point me to the post with your Metacello stack in it I
| will be glad to take a loook.
|
| Dale
|
| ----- Original Message -----
| | From: "Wilhelm K Schwab" <[hidden email]>
| | To: [hidden email]
| | Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 2:21:30 AM
| | Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 - better from Jenkins
| |
| | Dale,
| |
| | I'm not "complaining," I'm stating facts and asking for advice.
| |  Not
| | only did I state that I produced a "big" debug log, I also POSTED a
| | smaller one.  If you mean something different by a "stack trace,"
| | can you provide some instructions for how to obtain it?
| |
| | As for "continuing beyond errors" - AFAIK, *I* am not saving the
| | image in a confused state, but *something* appears to be doing just
| | that.  Yes, I "ignored errors" in the sense that I used the task
| | manager to kill off an image that was flailing trying to download
| | packages, and was mystified to discover that, without an explicit
| | save on my part, the image "woke up" trying to do the same
| | fruitless
| | exercise.  Several iterations of trying to unravel that led to the
| | large log.  I then removed the log, did one cycle, and posted the
| | log from that.
| |
| | Bill
| |
| |
| |
| |
| | ________________________________________
| | From: [hidden email]
| | [[hidden email]] on behalf of Dale
| | Henrichs [[hidden email]]
| | Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 8:33 PM
| | To: [hidden email]
| | Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 - better from Jenkins
| |
| | Bill,
| |
| | The last time you complained about Metacello being broken I asked
| | you
| | for a stack trace and I have seen no stack trace, although I
| | believe
| | that you were able to confirm that Metacello worked fine until you
| | loaded some of your own code into the system ...
| |
| | Here you are complaining again ... if you don't provide specifics,
| | the issues cannot be resolved ...
| |
| | There are apparently a lot of moving parts in your system, so it
| | takes great attention to detail to get such a system running
| | smoothly. The fact that you don't provide specifics tells me that
| | perhaps you are not paying attention to the details ...
| |
| | When you are porting to a new environment (for you) like Pharo 1.4,
| | you should stop and isolate the FIRST ERROR that you encounter ...
| | in a complicated system once an error occurs, all bets are off ...
| | You MUST pay attention to details ...
| |
| | You state that you have a giant debug log ... so it sounds like you
| | tried to keep moving forward in the face of initial errors...I say
| | good luck with that approach!
| |
| | If you post a Metacello stack trace I can very likely tell you what
| | went wrong, if you prefer to continue to whine and complain about
| | Metacello without even attempting to help me characterize the
| | issues, then I will leave you to your own devices and you can can
| | complain about Metacello all you want --- I won't be paying
| | attention any more:)
| |
| | Dale
| |
| |
| | ----- Original Message -----
| | | From: "Wilhelm K Schwab" <[hidden email]>
| | | To: [hidden email]
| | | Sent: Thursday, February 9, 2012 4:26:27 PM
| | | Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 - better from Jenkins
| | |
| | | I think you might be right about loading the .mcz files.  But I
| | | don't
| | | have an expectation other than what has been said here many
| | | times:
| | | that Metacello is the future.  So far, I don't see it.
| | |
| | | Bill
| | |
| | |
| | | ________________________________________
| | | From: [hidden email]
| | | [[hidden email]] on behalf of Yanni
| | | Chiu [[hidden email]]
| | | Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 6:22 PM
| | | To: [hidden email]
| | | Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 - better from Jenkins
| | |
| | | On 09/02/12 5:39 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
| | | > Sven,
| | | >
| | | > Fair enough, but the game plan is for people to use Metacello
| | | > configurations to load what they need to build an image.  I am
| | | > attempting to do just that, and am reporting (rather negative
| | | > so
| | | > far) experience, with debug logs.
| | | >
| | | > Pharo's fault or not, something is broken.  But if Pharo is
| | | > going
| | | > to send users into the current state of Metacello, the weather
| | | > around the lighthouse is going to be grim.
| | | >
| | | > Interesting ideas about the package cache being damaged.  Maybe
| | | > the
| | | > logs will reveal something??
| | |
| | | You might want to check the package cache for 0-length .mcz
| | | files,
| | | which
| | | might happen when the server is down.
| | |
| | | When I upgrade to a new image version, I just start my build
| | | process
| | | with the new image, and cross my fingers. If it fails, then I do
| | | it
| | | manually with the build script in a workspace - select each
| | | framework/package and "doIt". Sometimes I run the framework's
| | | tests,
| | | after each step.
| | |
| | | I load all "community" code first, unless I have extensions to
| | | this
| | | code. Sometimes I've had to upgrade to a newer version of the
| | | framework,
| | | if available. At other times, I had to create patches because I
| | | was
| | | tracking the Pharo updates (so no fixed version was available
| | | yet).
| | |
| | | In extreme cases, I've had to generate the list of packages that
| | | Metacello would load, then load each .mcz individually.
| | |
| | | Typically, I'd do "save image as" at various points, to be able
| | | to
| | | get
| | | back to the problem code, more quickly.
| | |
| | | I think you're pretty much following a similar process, except
| | | the
| | | expectation that a Metacello configuration should just load
| | | without
| | | problems on Pharo1.4-unstable is too optimistic.
| | |
| | |
| | |
| | |
| |
| |
| |
|
|

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example preferences startup script Re: 1.4 - better from Jenkins

Ben Coman
In reply to this post by Ben Coman

I just realized that clearing up those two ShouldBeImplementeds from
DosFileDirectory did not really prove that startup preferences worked on
MS Windows.
So I found the StartupLoader class>>example method
and did get... 'I should only be displayed once'    ...one time only
and do get... 'I should be displayed each time'   ...each time I start
Pharo.  So its good :) !!

However the 'each time' also dialog comes _every_ time I save the
image.  Is that desired behaviour? or is it just not finished yet?

btw, I was a little confused at first by how to use StartupLoader
class>>example. Initially I copied the whole text of that method into
pharo/1.4/startup.st
and the started the image - and the 'once' and 'each time' messages did
appear - but also a number of errors.   It wasn't until I notice and
wondered about the created file pharo1.4.st that I worked out that
'StartupLoader class>>example' should have just been executed rather
than manually copied.  Perhaps you can update the comment to say "An
example of script generation. Execute me to write a sample script to the
preferences folder"

cheers, -ben

Ben Coman wrote:

> Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
>> One snag: I'm still getting strangely broken images (won't open
>> process browser or debugger) after trying to download some things.  I
>> have mirrored squeak source, BUT, some things (SIXX, ODBC) don't
>> appear to have working configs, so I'm trying to grab the latest
>> packages, and *that* might not be mirrored.  I might need to specify
>> the mirror server in my code to make them work.
>>
>> Still, I don't get how simply asking MC to download something will
>> permanently mar the image w/o my doing an explicit save.  Does MC
>> snapshot before/during an attempted load?  It seems very misguided
>> that an innocent attempt to load something can hobble an image??
>>
>> One other crazy possibility: is killing a vm from the (Ubunutu)
>> system monitor somehow not sufficient to clear what is running?  Dumb
>> question?  Maybe, but I'm stumped.  Any ideas?
>>
>> Bill
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________________
>> From: [hidden email]
>> [[hidden email]] on behalf of blake
>> [[hidden email]]
>> Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 2:58 PM
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 - better from Jenkins
>>
>> I just downloaded the latest CogWin and Pharo 1.4 image and I got
>> "WARNING: Manufactured file handle detected!" at the bottom, and popup
>> full of startup errors.
>>  
> A couple of days ago tried Pharo-1.4-14315 and with cogwin_r2522.   I
> had the same warning, with a debugger showing "Error: Got startup errors"
> in method SmalltalkImage snapshot:andQuit: "  at line:
>    startupErrors isEmpty
>        ifFalse: [ self error: 'Got startup errors ' ].
> where startupErrors = an OrderedCollection(ShouldBeImplemented:
> #preferencesFolder should have been implemented in DosFileDirectory
> class)
>
> So I thought I may as well try implementing
> DosFileDirectory>>preferencesFolder - which I've left as a comment on
> ISSUE 5255. <http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=5255>
> A nice side effect of this was that all the "WARNING: Manufactured
> file handle detected!" went away.  Reverting this change reintroduces
> the warnings.
>
> cheers, -ben
>
>


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Re: example preferences startup script Re: 1.4 - better from Jenkins

Camillo Bruni

On 2012-02-10, at 20:06, Ben Coman wrote:

>
> I just realized that clearing up those two ShouldBeImplementeds from DosFileDirectory did not really prove that startup preferences worked on MS Windows.
> So I found the StartupLoader class>>example method
> and did get... 'I should only be displayed once'    ...one time only
> and do get... 'I should be displayed each time'   ...each time I start Pharo.  So its good :) !!
>
> However the 'each time' also dialog comes _every_ time I save the image.  Is that desired behaviour? or is it just not finished yet?

see http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=5275 ;)

> btw, I was a little confused at first by how to use StartupLoader class>>example. Initially I copied the whole text of that method into pharo/1.4/startup.st
> and the started the image - and the 'once' and 'each time' messages did appear - but also a number of errors.   It wasn't until I notice and wondered about the created file pharo1.4.st that I worked out that 'StartupLoader class>>example' should have just been executed rather than manually copied.  Perhaps you can update the comment to say "An example of script generation. Execute me to write a sample script to the preferences folder"
>
> cheers, -ben
>
> Ben Coman wrote:
>> Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
>>> One snag: I'm still getting strangely broken images (won't open process browser or debugger) after trying to download some things.  I have mirrored squeak source, BUT, some things (SIXX, ODBC) don't appear to have working configs, so I'm trying to grab the latest packages, and *that* might not be mirrored.  I might need to specify the mirror server in my code to make them work.
>>>
>>> Still, I don't get how simply asking MC to download something will permanently mar the image w/o my doing an explicit save.  Does MC snapshot before/during an attempted load?  It seems very misguided that an innocent attempt to load something can hobble an image??
>>>
>>> One other crazy possibility: is killing a vm from the (Ubunutu) system monitor somehow not sufficient to clear what is running?  Dumb question?  Maybe, but I'm stumped.  Any ideas?
>>>
>>> Bill
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________________
>>> From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] on behalf of blake [[hidden email]]
>>> Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 2:58 PM
>>> To: [hidden email]
>>> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 - better from Jenkins
>>>
>>> I just downloaded the latest CogWin and Pharo 1.4 image and I got
>>> "WARNING: Manufactured file handle detected!" at the bottom, and popup
>>> full of startup errors.
>>>  
>> A couple of days ago tried Pharo-1.4-14315 and with cogwin_r2522.   I had the same warning, with a debugger showing "Error: Got startup errors"
>> in method SmalltalkImage snapshot:andQuit: "  at line:
>>   startupErrors isEmpty
>>       ifFalse: [ self error: 'Got startup errors ' ].
>> where startupErrors = an OrderedCollection(ShouldBeImplemented: #preferencesFolder should have been implemented in DosFileDirectory class)
>>
>> So I thought I may as well try implementing DosFileDirectory>>preferencesFolder - which I've left as a comment on ISSUE 5255. <http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=5255>
>> A nice side effect of this was that all the "WARNING: Manufactured file handle detected!" went away.  Reverting this change reintroduces the warnings.
>>
>> cheers, -ben
>>
>>
>
>


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Re: 1.4 - better from Jenkins

Stéphane Ducasse
In reply to this post by Schwab,Wilhelm K

On Feb 9, 2012, at 8:06 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:

> I grabbed 1.4 and cog/unix from jenkins, dumped all the files in one directory, made a shell script to run the image using Cog, and all I can say is "wow."

tx

> The usability problems I was having are gone.  In particular, the context menus work.  I loaded Migrate and set preferences, with a really nice appearance resulting.
>
> One question: why did ClassDescription>>package go away?  That seems to be a really useful message.

we have to check. because this is probably not intended.

> I'll try to build an image using the SqueakSource mirror.  No promises, but 1.4 "suddenly" looks a LOT more polished than it did.  Are the links on the Pharo page old,

which page?

> or did somebody just do a lot of work to make things better?

probably that too :)
>
> Bill


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Re: 1.4 - better from Jenkins

Stéphane Ducasse
In reply to this post by Miguel Cobá
Hi miguel

I do not think that bill was nasty and I appreciated his feedback.
What is true is that we integrated in our way of life long time ago that doing something today is the best
way to have done something that is not left to do :).

Stef

On Feb 9, 2012, at 9:12 PM, Miguel Cobá wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 1:06 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>
>> I'll try to build an image using the SqueakSource mirror.  No promises, but
>> 1.4 "suddenly" looks a LOT more polished than it did.  Are the links on the
>> Pharo page old, or did somebody just do a lot of work to make things better?
>>
>
> Are you kidding?
>
> How could this possibly "suddenly" happen? What do you think that the
> Pharo community is doing? Of course isn't suddenly! It is the result of
> the hard work that Stef, Markus, Igor, INRIA people and the Squeak
> community (from where a lot of improvements are picked) are doing every
> day, one step at the time.
> So, please don't send messages like this. Isn't that "somebody just do a
> lot work to make things better". It is the result of the long term plan
> that Pharo was created to fulfill. It is the work of people, with names,
> with effort invested.
> This mail is very offensive to the people that, from long ago and with a
> lot of fights and effort, has been working hard to make a vision a
> reality.
>
> Miguel Cobá
>


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Re: 1.4 - better from Jenkins

Stéphane Ducasse
In reply to this post by Schwab,Wilhelm K
bill

can you build a reproducable situation?
Because we use daily packages with 1.4

In fact in often only develop in 1.4 and did not experience this problem. but it does not mean that we do not have problems :)

Stef


On Feb 9, 2012, at 9:15 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:

> One snag: I'm still getting strangely broken images (won't open process browser or debugger) after trying to download some things.  I have mirrored squeak source, BUT, some things (SIXX, ODBC) don't appear to have working configs, so I'm trying to grab the latest packages, and *that* might not be mirrored.  I might need to specify the mirror server in my code to make them work.
>
> Still, I don't get how simply asking MC to download something will permanently mar the image w/o my doing an explicit save.  Does MC snapshot before/during an attempted load?  It seems very misguided that an innocent attempt to load something can hobble an image??
>
> One other crazy possibility: is killing a vm from the (Ubunutu) system monitor somehow not sufficient to clear what is running?  Dumb question?  Maybe, but I'm stumped.  Any ideas?
>
> Bill
>
>
>
> ________________________________________
> From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] on behalf of blake [[hidden email]]
> Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 2:58 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 - better from Jenkins
>
> I just downloaded the latest CogWin and Pharo 1.4 image and I got
> "WARNING: Manufactured file handle detected!" at the bottom, and popup
> full of startup errors.
>
> But!
>
> It's all actually very friendly! I can look through the errors and try
> to figure out what caused them. It's way cleaner than the old style
> mega-DNU-stacks.
>
> Nice work!
>
> On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 11:06 AM, Schwab,Wilhelm K <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I grabbed 1.4 and cog/unix from jenkins, dumped all the files in one
>> directory, made a shell script to run the image using Cog, and all I can say
>> is "wow."
>>
>> The usability problems I was having are gone.  In particular, the context
>> menus work.  I loaded Migrate and set preferences, with a really nice
>> appearance resulting.
>>
>> One question: why did ClassDescription>>package go away?  That seems to be a
>> really useful message.
>>
>> I'll try to build an image using the SqueakSource mirror.  No promises, but
>> 1.4 "suddenly" looks a LOT more polished than it did.  Are the links on the
>> Pharo page old, or did somebody just do a lot of work to make things better?
>>
>> Bill
>>
>>
>
>


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Re: 1.4 - better from Jenkins

Stéphane Ducasse
In reply to this post by Schwab,Wilhelm K

On Feb 9, 2012, at 11:39 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:

> Sven,
>
> Fair enough, but the game plan is for people to use Metacello configurations to load what they need to build an image.  I am attempting to do just that, and am reporting (rather negative so far) experience, with debug logs.

Sure we will start to work on distribution certification as I mentioned in the draft of Pharo Vision document which escape my hd recently.. new version coming soon.

Bill can you post a reproachable case for us to play with?


>
> Pharo's fault or not, something is broken.  But if Pharo is going to send users into the current state of Metacello, the weather around the lighthouse is going to be grim.
>
> Interesting ideas about the package cache being damaged.  Maybe the logs will reveal something??
>
> Bill
>
> ________________________________________
> From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] on behalf of Sven Van Caekenberghe [[hidden email]]
> Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 5:14 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 - better from Jenkins
>
> On 09 Feb 2012, at 22:27, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
>
>> My new 1.4 image is behaving a *little* better than its predecessors, but there is still a problem.  It seems to happen after invoking Metacello loads, even with the mirror.  Odd behaviors include:
>>
>> (1) can't open debugger
>> (2) can't open process browser
>> (3) intermittent flashing/alternating cursors in text editors.
>>
>> Whatever happens, it seems to be saved into the image as MC works, because killing the image and reloading results in a hobbled system.
>>
>> At least with 1.4, I can sometimes break into a debugger, presumably because something is busy in a tight loop.  That might be a/the parser??
>>
>> BTW, in an hour (max) of playing around, I've generated a 38 MB debug log - too big to read :(  There are mentions of a parser, but my grep creativity has not allowed me to pull out any useful information. Perhaps I can start over with a clean log, let it get into some trouble, and review the log at a smaller size.
>>
>> Suggestions?
>
> Some remarks:
>
> - if you load code and it fails for whatever reason, and there was no hidden save somewhere, I would be extremely surprised if killing the image (clean or otherwise) would result in permanent damage; the only side effect could be in your filesystem (local package cache), but even that would normally not hurt the image itself
>
> - you are obviously loading lots of stuff: when this does not work, that is not 'Pharo's fault', you should ask the people who wrote these libraries for help (maybe through this list); you can't call gcc crap or unstable when a certain library fails
>
> - when you are reporting bugs and ask for help, you really have to bring your problem down to a simple test case that others can reproduce; even if people would want to help you, they cannot do so with these generalizations
>
> Sven
>
>
>


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Re: 1.4 - better from Jenkins

Stéphane Ducasse
In reply to this post by Benoit St-Jean
Hi benoit
I think that this is clear to everybody :)
Now I would like to be able to help and for that we need a case.

Stef

On Feb 10, 2012, at 2:59 AM, Benoit St-Jean wrote:

> Before we even get to the details, we should make sure we all exchange on a polite and non agressive tone.
>
> That being said, I don't think Bill is whining.  You never hear people who don't care.  I don't give a damn about product X, environment Y and programming language Z.  That's why I never complain (or whine) about X, Y or Z.  On the other hand, that's why you'll hear me complain about Smalltalk, Pharo, mathematics and a few other topics.  Why?  Because I care!
>
> Saying stuff don't work shouldn't be perceived as an ad hominem attack.  It just shows someone, somewhere, somehow had an interest to say it so it gets fixed.  And please, no "if you're no happy why don't you fix it and contribute" answer...  This is the kind of answer that made me walk away from Pharo at a certain point...
>
> If we can't take critics/bugs/suggestions/tickets/whatever without entering a "defensive mode", we won't get far.
>
> Let's keep it cool and remember that nobody forced anyone to use Pharo and read this mailing list and take the time to post.
>
> We're all here because we do care!
>  
> -----------------
> Benoit St-Jean
> Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean
> A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero.
> (Albert Einstein)
> From: Dale Henrichs <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Sent: Thursday, February 9, 2012 8:33:20 PM
> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 - better from Jenkins
>
> Bill,
>
> The last time you complained about Metacello being broken I asked you for a stack trace and I have seen no stack trace, although I believe that you were able to confirm that Metacello worked fine until you loaded some of your own code into the system ...
>
> Here you are complaining again ... if you don't provide specifics, the issues cannot be resolved ...
>
> There are apparently a lot of moving parts in your system, so it takes great attention to detail to get such a system running smoothly. The fact that you don't provide specifics tells me that perhaps you are not paying attention to the details ...
>
> When you are porting to a new environment (for you) like Pharo 1.4, you should stop and isolate the FIRST ERROR that you encounter ... in a complicated system once an error occurs, all bets are off ... You MUST pay attention to details ...
>
> You state that you have a giant debug log ... so it sounds like you tried to keep moving forward in the face of initial errors...I say good luck with that approach!
>
> If you post a Metacello stack trace I can very likely tell you what went wrong, if you prefer to continue to whine and complain about Metacello without even attempting to help me characterize the issues, then I will leave you to your own devices and you can can complain about Metacello all you want --- I won't be paying attention any more:)
>
> Dale
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> | From: "Wilhelm K Schwab" <[hidden email]>
> | To: [hidden email]
> | Sent: Thursday, February 9, 2012 4:26:27 PM
> | Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 - better from Jenkins
> |
> | I think you might be right about loading the .mcz files.  But I don't
> | have an expectation other than what has been said here many times:
> | that Metacello is the future.  So far, I don't see it.
> |
> | Bill
> |
> |
> | ________________________________________
> | From: [hidden email]
> | [[hidden email]] on behalf of Yanni
> | Chiu [[hidden email]]
> | Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 6:22 PM
> | To: [hidden email]
> | Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 - better from Jenkins
> |
> | On 09/02/12 5:39 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
> | > Sven,
> | >
> | > Fair enough, but the game plan is for people to use Metacello
> | > configurations to load what they need to build an image.  I am
> | > attempting to do just that, and am reporting (rather negative so
> | > far) experience, with debug logs.
> | >
> | > Pharo's fault or not, something is broken.  But if Pharo is going
> | > to send users into the current state of Metacello, the weather
> | > around the lighthouse is going to be grim.
> | >
> | > Interesting ideas about the package cache being damaged.  Maybe the
> | > logs will reveal something??
> |
> | You might want to check the package cache for 0-length .mcz files,
> | which
> | might happen when the server is down.
> |
> | When I upgrade to a new image version, I just start my build process
> | with the new image, and cross my fingers. If it fails, then I do it
> | manually with the build script in a workspace - select each
> | framework/package and "doIt". Sometimes I run the framework's tests,
> | after each step.
> |
> | I load all "community" code first, unless I have extensions to this
> | code. Sometimes I've had to upgrade to a newer version of the
> | framework,
> | if available. At other times, I had to create patches because I was
> | tracking the Pharo updates (so no fixed version was available yet).
> |
> | In extreme cases, I've had to generate the list of packages that
> | Metacello would load, then load each .mcz individually.
> |
> | Typically, I'd do "save image as" at various points, to be able to
> | get
> | back to the problem code, more quickly.
> |
> | I think you're pretty much following a similar process, except the
> | expectation that a Metacello configuration should just load without
> | problems on Pharo1.4-unstable is too optimistic.
> |
> |
> |
> |
>
>
>


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Re: 1.4 - better from Jenkins

Stéphane Ducasse
In reply to this post by Igor Stasenko

On Feb 10, 2012, at 12:18 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote:

> On 10 February 2012 11:33, Schwab,Wilhelm K <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> That's precisely what I'm trying to do.  Sig's answer might provide a piece of the puzzle, but I still have to figure out whether/why/how the problem really does persist after executing code and not saving the image.  I added some snapshots thinking I could take success as it comes and repeat steps that failure, but I removed them all (I think) when I started to discover that once hobbled, the image remains hobbled, saved or not.  Weird.
>>
> yes, the problem is when you have an error and i had wrong idea to
> suspend a process before scheduling request to open debugger on it :)

:)
so igor do you have a fix? is it the rollback suggestion at the end of the issue?

Stef

>
>> For all I know, I have made this reproducible.  One response said essentially, "yeah, I sometimes just load the packages MC would load" - hardly the way one speaks of a robust infrastructure.
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________________
>> From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] on behalf of Marcus Denker [[hidden email]]
>> Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 5:26 AM
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 - better from Jenkins
>>
>> On Feb 10, 2012, at 11:22 AM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
>>
>>> Dale,
>>>
>>> I'm not "complaining," I'm stating facts and asking for advice.  Not only did I state that I produced a "big" debug log, I also POSTED a smaller one.  If you mean something different by a "stack trace," can you provide some instructions for how to obtain it?
>>>
>> What we need is a description of how to re-produce the problem.
>> Do not think that anyone can (or even wants to help) if you just say "I did something and than I got strange results".
>>
>> Make it reproducable, and then add a bug report.
>>
>>        Marcus
>>
>> --
>> Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Igor Stasenko.
>


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Re: 1.4 - better from Jenkins

Schwab,Wilhelm K
In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse
Stef,

I am trying to simplify it :)  You use a Mac, right?  I'm using Linux, and the vm differences might be at play??

Thanks for understanding my motivations.  I'll keep at it.  It might also be interesting for me to try to orchestrate an attempt on a Windows vm.  I don't care for Windows, but I have long respected Andreas' work on it vm.

Bill


________________________________________
From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] on behalf of Stéphane Ducasse [[hidden email]]
Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 3:26 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 - better from Jenkins

bill

can you build a reproducable situation?
Because we use daily packages with 1.4

In fact in often only develop in 1.4 and did not experience this problem. but it does not mean that we do not have problems :)

Stef


On Feb 9, 2012, at 9:15 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:

> One snag: I'm still getting strangely broken images (won't open process browser or debugger) after trying to download some things.  I have mirrored squeak source, BUT, some things (SIXX, ODBC) don't appear to have working configs, so I'm trying to grab the latest packages, and *that* might not be mirrored.  I might need to specify the mirror server in my code to make them work.
>
> Still, I don't get how simply asking MC to download something will permanently mar the image w/o my doing an explicit save.  Does MC snapshot before/during an attempted load?  It seems very misguided that an innocent attempt to load something can hobble an image??
>
> One other crazy possibility: is killing a vm from the (Ubunutu) system monitor somehow not sufficient to clear what is running?  Dumb question?  Maybe, but I'm stumped.  Any ideas?
>
> Bill
>
>
>
> ________________________________________
> From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] on behalf of blake [[hidden email]]
> Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 2:58 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 - better from Jenkins
>
> I just downloaded the latest CogWin and Pharo 1.4 image and I got
> "WARNING: Manufactured file handle detected!" at the bottom, and popup
> full of startup errors.
>
> But!
>
> It's all actually very friendly! I can look through the errors and try
> to figure out what caused them. It's way cleaner than the old style
> mega-DNU-stacks.
>
> Nice work!
>
> On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 11:06 AM, Schwab,Wilhelm K <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I grabbed 1.4 and cog/unix from jenkins, dumped all the files in one
>> directory, made a shell script to run the image using Cog, and all I can say
>> is "wow."
>>
>> The usability problems I was having are gone.  In particular, the context
>> menus work.  I loaded Migrate and set preferences, with a really nice
>> appearance resulting.
>>
>> One question: why did ClassDescription>>package go away?  That seems to be a
>> really useful message.
>>
>> I'll try to build an image using the SqueakSource mirror.  No promises, but
>> 1.4 "suddenly" looks a LOT more polished than it did.  Are the links on the
>> Pharo page old, or did somebody just do a lot of work to make things better?
>>
>> Bill
>>
>>
>
>



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