A Canticle for Smalltalk

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A Canticle for Smalltalk

horrido
A big fan of my work created this rogue video: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1opveHaukFK8WbQ8wg8b14wuKJsjoOZfO/view

I appreciate the homage, but I can't take credit for it.

It's really quite beautiful, though. I'm using it as part of my evangelism.

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Re: A Canticle for Smalltalk

Tim Mackinnon
It’s very entertaining but it seems a bit sad - it’s a shame it refers to JP-Morgan as “used Smalltalk “ as actually they are “still using Smalltalk” (so it’s not in the past)

Tim

Sent from my iPhone

On 5 Aug 2019, at 16:19, Richard Kenneth Eng <[hidden email]> wrote:

A big fan of my work created this rogue video: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1opveHaukFK8WbQ8wg8b14wuKJsjoOZfO/view

I appreciate the homage, but I can't take credit for it.

It's really quite beautiful, though. I'm using it as part of my evangelism.

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Re: A Canticle for Smalltalk

Mariano Martinez Peck
Yes. And I think it's even more sad than the containers example doesn't work anymore... AFAIK they replaced the system. 

On Tue, Aug 6, 2019, 05:06 Tim Mackinnon <[hidden email]> wrote:
It’s very entertaining but it seems a bit sad - it’s a shame it refers to JP-Morgan as “used Smalltalk “ as actually they are “still using Smalltalk” (so it’s not in the past)

Tim

Sent from my iPhone

On 5 Aug 2019, at 16:19, Richard Kenneth Eng <[hidden email]> wrote:

A big fan of my work created this rogue video: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1opveHaukFK8WbQ8wg8b14wuKJsjoOZfO/view

I appreciate the homage, but I can't take credit for it.

It's really quite beautiful, though. I'm using it as part of my evangelism.

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Re: A Canticle for Smalltalk

horrido
In reply to this post by Tim Mackinnon
"Used Smalltalk" doesn't imply that they stopped using Smalltalk, esp. if
Kapital is still operational.


Tim Mackinnon wrote
> It’s very entertaining but it seems a bit sad - it’s a shame it refers to
> JP-Morgan as “used Smalltalk “ as actually they are “still using
> Smalltalk” (so it’s not in the past)
>
> Tim
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On 5 Aug 2019, at 16:19, Richard Kenneth Eng &lt;

> horrido.hobbies@

> &gt; wrote:
>>
>> A big fan of my work created this rogue video:
>> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1opveHaukFK8WbQ8wg8b14wuKJsjoOZfO/view
>>
>> I appreciate the homage, but I can't take credit for it.
>>
>> It's really quite beautiful, though. I'm using it as part of my
>> evangelism.
>>





--
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Re: A Canticle for Smalltalk

horrido
In reply to this post by Mariano Martinez Peck
Well, all software applications eventually meet their EOL. IRIS-2 had a good,
long run.

Note that the same thing applies to JWARS. It was EOL'd in 2010, but it was
operational for over a decade. That's pretty damn good!

None of this takes away from Smalltalk's efficacy and power.



Mariano Martinez Peck wrote
> Yes. And I think it's even more sad than the containers example doesn't
> work anymore... AFAIK they replaced the system.
>
> On Tue, Aug 6, 2019, 05:06 Tim Mackinnon &lt;

> tim@

> &gt; wrote:
>
>> It’s very entertaining but it seems a bit sad - it’s a shame it refers to
>> JP-Morgan as “used Smalltalk “ as actually they are “still using
>> Smalltalk”
>> (so it’s not in the past)
>>
>> Tim
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On 5 Aug 2019, at 16:19, Richard Kenneth Eng &lt;

> horrido.hobbies@

> &gt;
>> wrote:
>>
>> A big fan of my work created this rogue video:
>> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1opveHaukFK8WbQ8wg8b14wuKJsjoOZfO/view
>>
>> I appreciate the homage, but I can't take credit for it.
>>
>> It's really quite beautiful, though. I'm using it as part of my
>> evangelism.
>>
>>





--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

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Re: A Canticle for Smalltalk

Esteban A. Maringolo
In reply to this post by Mariano Martinez Peck
What is the intentend audience of this?

Personally I don't like the aesthetics, the pace of text and its
"nostalgia", and the overall message of the song lyrics ; and although
I like the band and song, it's a proven plagiarism of Satriani's "If I
could fly". [1]

Regards,


[1] https://youtu.be/8RJmiMq1pOA?t=48

Esteban A. Maringolo

On Tue, Aug 6, 2019 at 8:04 AM Mariano Martinez Peck
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Yes. And I think it's even more sad than the containers example doesn't work anymore... AFAIK they replaced the system.
>
> On Tue, Aug 6, 2019, 05:06 Tim Mackinnon <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> It’s very entertaining but it seems a bit sad - it’s a shame it refers to JP-Morgan as “used Smalltalk “ as actually they are “still using Smalltalk” (so it’s not in the past)
>>
>> Tim
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On 5 Aug 2019, at 16:19, Richard Kenneth Eng <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> A big fan of my work created this rogue video: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1opveHaukFK8WbQ8wg8b14wuKJsjoOZfO/view
>>
>> I appreciate the homage, but I can't take credit for it.
>>
>> It's really quite beautiful, though. I'm using it as part of my evangelism.
>>

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Re: A Canticle for Smalltalk

Tim Mackinnon
In reply to this post by horrido
Kapital is still operational - some of the guys on that team come to the UK Smalltalk Meetup and they are often talking about improvements and things they are doing (in a general sense, as obviously they can’t share specific details) - so its still very active and an amazing system. I had a chance to work on it a bit myself for 6 months, and was amazed how productive I could be with very little on boarding (particularly when shown their equivalent of the halo click command to understand where the code in the ui comes from).

Tim

> On 6 Aug 2019, at 12:33, horrido <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> "Used Smalltalk" doesn't imply that they stopped using Smalltalk, esp. if
> Kapital is still operational.
>
>
> Tim Mackinnon wrote
>> It’s very entertaining but it seems a bit sad - it’s a shame it refers to
>> JP-Morgan as “used Smalltalk “ as actually they are “still using
>> Smalltalk” (so it’s not in the past)
>>
>> Tim
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On 5 Aug 2019, at 16:19, Richard Kenneth Eng &lt;
>
>> horrido.hobbies@
>
>> &gt; wrote:
>>>
>>> A big fan of my work created this rogue video:
>>> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1opveHaukFK8WbQ8wg8b14wuKJsjoOZfO/view
>>>
>>> I appreciate the homage, but I can't take credit for it.
>>>
>>> It's really quite beautiful, though. I'm using it as part of my
>>> evangelism.
>>>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>


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Re: A Canticle for Smalltalk

Ben Coman
In reply to this post by Tim Mackinnon
I didn't get the sense that "used" means its no longer being used.
Yesterday I used a keyboard to write an email, and I'm doing the same thing today.
cheers -ben

On Tue, 6 Aug 2019 at 16:06, Tim Mackinnon <[hidden email]> wrote:
It’s very entertaining but it seems a bit sad - it’s a shame it refers to JP-Morgan as “used Smalltalk “ as actually they are “still using Smalltalk” (so it’s not in the past)

Tim

Sent from my iPhone

On 5 Aug 2019, at 16:19, Richard Kenneth Eng <[hidden email]> wrote:

A big fan of my work created this rogue video: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1opveHaukFK8WbQ8wg8b14wuKJsjoOZfO/view

I appreciate the homage, but I can't take credit for it.

It's really quite beautiful, though. I'm using it as part of my evangelism.

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Re: A Canticle for Smalltalk

Esteban A. Maringolo
I'm not a native speaker but grammatically speaking "used" (simple
past) means you did use it in the past but there is no information
about whether you use it now, and "have been using" (present perfect)
means you did use it in the past and continue to do so in the present.

Esteban A. Maringolo


On Tue, Aug 6, 2019 at 11:37 AM Ben Coman <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> I didn't get the sense that "used" means its no longer being used.
> Yesterday I used a keyboard to write an email, and I'm doing the same thing today.
> cheers -ben
>
> On Tue, 6 Aug 2019 at 16:06, Tim Mackinnon <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> It’s very entertaining but it seems a bit sad - it’s a shame it refers to JP-Morgan as “used Smalltalk “ as actually they are “still using Smalltalk” (so it’s not in the past)
>>
>> Tim
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On 5 Aug 2019, at 16:19, Richard Kenneth Eng <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> A big fan of my work created this rogue video: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1opveHaukFK8WbQ8wg8b14wuKJsjoOZfO/view
>>
>> I appreciate the homage, but I can't take credit for it.
>>
>> It's really quite beautiful, though. I'm using it as part of my evangelism.
>>

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Re: A Canticle for Smalltalk

Torsten Bergmann
In reply to this post by Mariano Martinez Peck
>Yes. And I think it's even more sad than the containers example doesn't work anymore... AFAIK they replaced the system. 

Many things seem to be possible in times where talks like "How to get rid of Smalltalk" [1] will be presented on
a Smalltalk conference (here ESUG 2019).

Did commercial / traditional Smalltalk world really change over the years? I'm not following them too closely in recent months
but I see some commercial vendors still try to attract people with old success stories and videos from ancient times.
Where is the "coolness factor" combined with fancy marketing to attract new generations and audience...

And this although Smalltalk seems to be often mentioned as favourite language like in [2]

Pharo is in fact the main innovation driver these days. Another reason to move on, to improve it or even change Pharo more radical
into a world beyond traditional Smalltalk. We all know that many new cool and interesting things could be done on top
of the powerful base of a lively and dynamic object oriented system which we still share with the historic roots....

Bye
T.

[1] https://esug.github.io/2019-Conference/conf2019.html
[2] https://twitter.com/Grady_Booch/status/1157049284870602752

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Re: A Canticle for Smalltalk

BrunoBB
In reply to this post by Mariano Martinez Peck
/Yes. And I think it's even more sad than the containers example doesn't work
anymore... AFAIK they replaced the system. /

How accurate is this ?

From:
https://www.oocl.com/eng/aboutoocl/companyprofile/informationtechnology/Pages/default.aspx

OOCL's  Integrated Regional Information System, known as IRIS-2, was
launched in 1999. IRIS-2 became more than just a software; it helped
facilitate a new company culture. * IRIS-2 has changed the way we think and
the way we do business.*

regards,
bruno



--
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Re: A Canticle for Smalltalk

BrunoBB
Sorry,

The main phrase:

Today, we continue to reap the rewards of this remarkable system.

regards,
bruno



--
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Re: A Canticle for Smalltalk

Mariano Martinez Peck
The last place was a few days ago: https://twitter.com/MartinClausen8/status/1157051595999404033
But... a whole longer discussion took place a few months ago...but I cannot find it now. 

On Tue, Aug 6, 2019 at 5:19 PM BrunoBB <[hidden email]> wrote:
Sorry,

The main phrase:

Today, we continue to reap the rewards of this remarkable system.

regards,
bruno



--
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--
Mariano Martinez Peck
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Re: A Canticle for Smalltalk

horrido
In reply to this post by Torsten Bergmann
I've read a number of LinkedIn posts from Mariano Martínez Peck about recent
innovations to VA Smalltalk, IIRC. Seems to me that Instantiations are doing
a good job of innovating, too.



Torsten Bergmann wrote
>>Yes. And I think it's even more sad than the containers example doesn't
work anymore... AFAIK they replaced the system. 

>
> Many things seem to be possible in times where talks like "How to get rid
> of Smalltalk" [1] will be presented on
> a Smalltalk conference (here ESUG 2019).
>
> Did commercial / traditional Smalltalk world really change over the years?
> I'm not following them too closely in recent months
> but I see some commercial vendors still try to attract people with old
> success stories and videos from ancient times.
> Where is the "coolness factor" combined with fancy marketing to attract
> new generations and audience...
>
> And this although Smalltalk seems to be often mentioned as favourite
> language like in [2]
>
> Pharo is in fact the main innovation driver these days. Another reason to
> move on, to improve it or even change Pharo more radical
> into a world beyond traditional Smalltalk. We all know that many new cool
> and interesting things could be done on top
> of the powerful base of a lively and dynamic object oriented system which
> we still share with the historic roots....
>
> Bye
> T.
>
> [1] https://esug.github.io/2019-Conference/conf2019.html
> [2] https://twitter.com/Grady_Booch/status/1157049284870602752





--
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Re: A Canticle for Smalltalk

Mariano Martinez Peck
In reply to this post by Torsten Bergmann
Hi Torsten, how are you?

Please find my answers below. 

On Tue, Aug 6, 2019 at 12:37 PM Torsten Bergmann <[hidden email]> wrote:
>Yes. And I think it's even more sad than the containers example doesn't work anymore... AFAIK they replaced the system. 

Many things seem to be possible in times where talks like "How to get rid of Smalltalk" [1] will be presented on
a Smalltalk conference (here ESUG 2019).


Yes, I saw it too and caught my attention. Here is more details about the talk: https://github.com/ESUG/esug.github.io/blob/source/2019-Conference/talks/2019-HowToGetRidOfSmalltalk
I think it's a nice gesture from ESUG to not ban it and let him speak. Whether we agree or not, that's a different discussion. But we can't ban. 

 
Did commercial / traditional Smalltalk world really change over the years? I'm not following them too closely in recent months
but I see some commercial vendors still try to attract people with old success stories and videos from ancient times.


You know I am working for Instantiations. I have seen what you mean too in other vendors but I cannot speak in public about that. Feel free to send me a private email.


Where is the "coolness factor" combined with fancy marketing to attract new generations and audience...



That's exactly  the kind of marketing that we are doing at Instantiations. We are doing a lot of R&D in many areas such as IoT, ARM (we have ARM 32 and ARM 64), Raspberry Pi, AI/ML TensorFlow, Docker and many many other aspects. We have also moved forward on improving dialect compatibility such as writing a Tonel reader AND WRITER. Just take a look to my or or Instantiations  twitter/linkedin activity and you will see it. You can also see our recent newsletter:


Instantiations sponsored Camp St NC on March https://twitter.com/CampSmalltalkNA  , its sponsoring ESUG and will sponsor Smalltalks. 

If you check everything I sent, you will notice there is not a single reference to success stories (except one that partner with us to build the new LLVM JIT). 

 
And this although Smalltalk seems to be often mentioned as favourite language like in [2]

Pharo is in fact the main innovation driver these days. Another reason to move on, to improve it or even change Pharo more radical
into a world beyond traditional Smalltalk. We all know that many new cool and interesting things could be done on top
of the powerful base of a lively and dynamic object oriented system which we still share with the historic roots....


I don't mind Pharo moving forward in innovation and with more radical changes beyond traditional Smalltalk etc etc. But then don't call it "business friendly".
It's not that you have 100 paid engineers to work on it.  IMHO you cannot correctly target both. 

Best regards, 

--
Mariano Martinez Peck
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Re: A Canticle for Smalltalk

Richard Sargent
Administrator
In reply to this post by BrunoBB
On Tue, Aug 6, 2019 at 4:16 PM BrunoBB <[hidden email]> wrote:
/Yes. And I think it's even more sad than the containers example doesn't work
anymore... AFAIK they replaced the system. /

How accurate is this ?

OOCL advanced their system to IRIS-4 (Oracle based) and was eventually bought by COSCO, a mainland China shipping company. COSCO is currently running IRIS-2. 


From:
https://www.oocl.com/eng/aboutoocl/companyprofile/informationtechnology/Pages/default.aspx

OOCL's  Integrated Regional Information System, known as IRIS-2, was
launched in 1999. IRIS-2 became more than just a software; it helped
facilitate a new company culture. * IRIS-2 has changed the way we think and
the way we do business.*

regards,
bruno



--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

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Re: A Canticle for Smalltalk

horrido
In reply to this post by Mariano Martinez Peck
I'm just guessing, but perhaps COSCO's acquisition of OOCL forced them to
realign their software infrastructure. COSCO is obviously not a Smalltalk
shop. This wouldn't be the first time an acquisition forced major corporate
changes.



Mariano Martinez Peck wrote
> The last place was a few days ago:
> https://twitter.com/MartinClausen8/status/1157051595999404033
> But... a whole longer discussion took place a few months ago...but I
> cannot
> find it now.
>
> On Tue, Aug 6, 2019 at 5:19 PM BrunoBB &lt;

> smalltalk@.com

> &gt; wrote:
>
>> Sorry,
>>
>> The main phrase:
>>
>> Today, we continue to reap the rewards of this remarkable system.
>>
>> regards,
>> bruno
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>>
>>
>
> --
> Mariano Martinez Peck
> Email:

> marianopeck@

> Twitter: @MartinezPeck
> LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/mariano-martinez-peck
> &lt;https://www.linkedin.com/in/mariano-mart%C3%ADnez-peck/&gt;
> Blog: https://marianopeck.wordpress.com/





--
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Re: A Canticle for Smalltalk

Mariano Martinez Peck
In reply to this post by horrido


On Tue, Aug 6, 2019 at 5:39 PM horrido <[hidden email]> wrote:
I've read a number of LinkedIn posts from Mariano Martínez Peck about recent
innovations to VA Smalltalk, IIRC. Seems to me that Instantiations are doing
a good job of innovating, too.


Thanks Richard. Funny thing... I was typing my response while yours jumped in :)


--
Mariano Martinez Peck
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Re: A Canticle for Smalltalk

horrido
In reply to this post by Richard Sargent
Hmmm, I apparently guessed wrong. :-(



Richard Sargent wrote
> On Tue, Aug 6, 2019 at 4:16 PM BrunoBB &lt;

> smalltalk@.com

> &gt; wrote:
>
>> /Yes. And I think it's even more sad than the containers example doesn't
>> work
>> anymore... AFAIK they replaced the system. /
>>
>> How accurate is this ?
>>
>
> OOCL advanced their system to IRIS-4 (Oracle based) and was eventually
> bought by COSCO, a mainland China shipping company. COSCO is currently
> running IRIS-2.
>
>
>> From:
>>
>> https://www.oocl.com/eng/aboutoocl/companyprofile/informationtechnology/Pages/default.aspx
>>
>> OOCL's  Integrated Regional Information System, known as IRIS-2, was
>> launched in 1999. IRIS-2 became more than just a software; it helped
>> facilitate a new company culture. * IRIS-2 has changed the way we think
>> and
>> the way we do business.*
>>
>> regards,
>> bruno
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>>
>>





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Re: A Canticle for Smalltalk

horrido
In reply to this post by Esteban A. Maringolo

What is the intentend audience of this?


I watched the video again, carefully, and here's my takeaway...

The video is aimed at developers and would-be developers who:

— have never heard of Smalltalk, or do not know anything significant about
the language or its history

— are not aware that Smalltalk was once a reasonably popular language, so
it's not as obscure and esoteric as they think

— do not know that there have been two conflicting philosophies surrounding
OOP, and that most developers have learned OOP "the wrong way"

— and, most importantly, that Smalltalk represents a new programming model,
distinct from the one that most everyone have been using since the days of
FORTRAN and COBOL

This last point is crucial. I've heard so many complaints about Smalltalk
being too "insular" because of its system image, that it doesn't play well
with existing programming tools like text editors, command line utilities,
git, etc. Duh! It's a new programming model! What do you expect?

And now that Pharo plays nice with git, insularity is no longer as big a
deal. This new programming model is THE REASON that Smalltalk is so super
productive. If the video can drive home this point, and I think it does,
that's a huge achievement.





--
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