A Gentle Introduction to Amber

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Re: A Gentle Introduction to Amber

Herby Vojčík


Richard Eng wrote:
> Another question I have is: Since Silk is a way to *not* rely on JQuery,
> how would you collect the values in the form without using JQuery? IOW,
> I can't use...
>
> (('#myForm1 *'asJQuery)filter:':input')

AFAIK ':input', ':checked', ':visible' and others are jQuery-specific
and are not actually part of CSS machinery.

In Silk, you can only do what classical DOM-built CSS allows you to do, so:

   '#myForm' asJQuery allAt: 'input,select,option'

will get you the array of Silk-wrapped <input>s, <select>s and <option>s
that reside under #myForm.

There is also at: to only get first such element; and you can send at:
and allAt: directly to Silk to search the whole document.

BTW, '#myForm *' asJQuery filter: ':input' scares me. Why not '#myForm'
asJQuery children: ':input' or '#myForm' asJQuery find: ':input'?

> On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 19:09:34 UTC-4, Richard Eng wrote:
>
>     I think I like this style best:
>
>     '#client-main' asSilk
>        FORM
>          TABLE in: [ :table |
>            table TR in: [ :row |
>              row TD: 'Username:'.
>              row TD INPUT: 'name'->'name' ].
>            table TR in: [ :row |
>              row TD: 'Password:'.
>              row TD INPUT: {'name'->'password'. 'type'->'password'} ].
>            table TR TD INPUT: {'type'->'submit'. 'value'->'Okay'} ]
>
>     But I'm puzzled by 'FORM' and 'TABLE'. You don't actually say what
>     these are shortcuts for, and I can't figure out how to add an
>     attribute, eg, 'id'->'myForm1'. I've tried various things to no avail.
>
>
>     On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 16:00:24 UTC-4, Herby wrote:
>
>
>
>         Richard Eng wrote:
>          > You're right. The last example did not break.
>
>         Released 0.1.4 with `Silk TAG:` working.
>
>          > On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 15:25:42 UTC-4, Herby wrote:
>          >
>          >
>          >
>          > Richard Eng wrote:
>          > > I notice that the class-side #doesNotUnderstand: is slightly
>          > different
>          > > from the instance-side #doesNotUnderstand:, which is why your
>          > examples
>          > > break. You're right, when I do 'Silk new TAG:', it works.
>          >
>          > I told `Silk newStream TAG:`, `Silk new TAG:` does something
>         slightly
>          > different (of course, '#client-div' asSilk is also an
>         instance, that's
>          > why there the TAG: form works as well; also the last example
>         uses
>          > instances, so AfAICT, it is not breaking (you wrote all of them
>          > break)).
>          >
>          > > On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 14:44:46 UTC-4, Herby wrote:
>          > >
>          > >
>          > >
>          > > Herby Vojčík wrote:
>          > > >
>          > > >
>          > > > Richard Eng wrote:
>          > > >> Here's what I've concluded...
>          > > >>
>          > > >> With the exception of #FORM:, *none* of the other TAG:'s
>         work. I
>          > > have to
>          > > >> use '<<' with 'Silk TAG'. That's why all of your example
>         break.
>          > >
>          > > I looked at sources; you are mixing "Silk TAG:" with
>         "aSilkInstance
>          > > TAG:". It is indeed true that "Silk TAG:" does not work
>         (from the
>          > > examples it is clear, though, that it is useful), and on
>         the other
>          > > hand,
>          > > all "aSilkInstance TAG:" work (not just FORM:).
>          > >
>          > > Nevertheless, it should be easy to use "Silk newStream TAG:"
>          > instead of
>          > > "Silk TAG:" and it should just work.
>          > >
>          > > I will probably add direct "Silk TAG:".
>          > >
>          > > > I just don't believe that, #FORM: has no specialty at all
>         and
>          > > Silk has
>          > > > unit tests which test lots of scenarios, including making
>         some
>          > table
>          > > > using TAG and TAG: messages.
>          > > >
>          > > >> On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 12:29:27 UTC-4, Richard Eng
>         wrote:
>          > > >>
>          > > >> Where you use 'Silk open', I also get:
>          > > >>
>          > > >> Silk does not understand #open
>          > > >
>          > > > #open must just work, it's normally implemented (in
>         DOMite, from
>          > > which
>          > > > Silk inherits).
>          > > >
>          > > > You must have something wrong in your setup.
>          > > >
>          > > >> On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 12:22:40 UTC-4, Richard Eng
>         wrote:
>          > > >>
>          > > >> In all of your code examples where you use #TD:, I get:
>          > > >>
>          > > >> Silk does not understand #TD:
>          > > >> *
>          > > >> *
>          > > >> (I'm just cut-and-pasting into my application.)
>          > > >>
>          > > >> Am I doing something wrong, or is your article incorrect?
>          > > >>
>          > > >>
>          > > >> On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 04:48:54 UTC-4, Herby wrote:
>          > > >>
>          > > >>
>          > > >>
>          > > >> Richard Eng wrote:
>          > > >> > Hmmm, something's wrong. Even with 'Silk TD LABEL:', the
>          > > >> cells in the
>          > > >> > table are not aligning correctly. This was never a
>          > > >> problem with the Web
>          > > >> > package.
>          > > >> >
>          > > >> >
>          > > >> > On Tuesday, 23 June 2015 20:53:23 UTC-4, Richard Eng
>         wrote:
>          > > >> >
>          > > >> > Oh, so simple:
>          > > >> >
>          > > >> > Silk TD LABEL: 'Username:'
>          > > >> >
>          > > >> >
>          > > >> > On Tuesday, 23 June 2015 20:51:04 UTC-4, Richard Eng
>         wrote:
>          > > >> >
>          > > >> > Hmmm...
>          > > >> >
>          > > >> > Silk does not understand #TD:
>          > > >> >
>          > > >> > What's the correct way to add a label?
>          > > >> >
>          > > >> >
>          > > >> > On Thursday, 11 June 2015 11:07:05 UTC-4, Herby wrote:
>          > > >> >
>          > > >> >
>          > > >> >
>          > > >> > Richard Eng wrote:
>          > > >> > > I don't disagree with you, but as Martin pointed
>         out, in
>          > > >> > a typical web
>          > > >> > > application project, you are *given* HTML; you are not
>          > > >> > asked to
>          > > >> > > write/generate HTML.
>          > > >> > >
>          > > >> > > Nevertheless, in the next installment of the Amber
>          > > >> > tutorial, I *will* be
>          > > >> > > examining Silk.
>          > > >> > >
>          > > >> > >
>          > > >> > > On Thursday, 11 June 2015 10:50:36 UTC-4, Herby wrote:
>          > > >> > >
>          > > >> > >
>          > > >> > >
>          > > >> > > Richard Eng wrote:
>          > > >> > > > It's very easy to insert raw HTML instead of using
>          > > >> > HTMLCanvas.
>          > > >> > > For example,
>          > > >> > > >
>          > > >> > > > ||
>          > > >> > > > '#client-main'asJQuery append:
>          > > >> > > > '<form>
>          > > >> > > > <table>
>          > > >> > > > <tr><td>Username:</td><td><input
>         name="name"></td></tr>
>          > > >> > > > <tr><td>Password:</td><td><input name="password"
>          > > >> > > type="password"></td></tr>
>          > > >> > > > <tr><td><input type="submit" value="Okay"></td></tr>
>          > > >> > > > </table>
>          > > >> > > > </form>'
>          > > >> >
>          > > >> > Just in case, above thing could probably written this
>         way in
>          > > >> > Silk:
>          > > >> >
>          > > >> > '#client-main' asSilk
>          > > >> > FORM
>          > > >> > TABLE
>          > > >> > TR: {
>          > > >> > Silk TD: 'Username:'.
>          > > >> > Silk TD INPUT: 'name'->'name' };
>          > > >> > TR: {
>          > > >> > Silk TD: 'Password'.
>          > > >> > Silk TD INPUT: { 'name'->'password'.
>         'type'->'password' }};
>          > > >> > TR: {
>          > > >> > Silk TD INPUT: { 'type'->'submit'. 'value'->'Okay' }
>          > > >>
>          > > >> This is not correct code. See the medium article for
>         correct
>          > > >> pieces.
>          > > >>
>          > > >> >
>          > > >> > Of course, it could be written other ways, too, as it is
>          > > >> > pretty flexible
>          > > >> > in ways how to insert content into an element. This piece
>          > > >> > uses `TAG:
>          > > >> > content` convenient method heavily.
>          > > >> >
>          > > >> > (uppercase needed, as DNU is used to generate tags
>         from any
>          > > >> > uppercase
>          > > >> > message, so you can insert you custom tags as well)
>          > > >> >
>          > > >> > > >
>          > > >> > > > I just thought it'd be nice to use Smalltalk to
>          > > >> > programmatically
>          > > >> > > create
>          > > >> > > > the HTML. I used Seaside many years ago, so it's what
>          > > >> I'm
>          > > >> > > familiar with;
>          > > >> > > > in Seaside, there was no other way to use HTML
>         (most web
>          > > >> > > frameworks use
>          > > >> > > > HTML templates).
>          > > >> > > >
>          > > >> > > > In fact, for all future work, I'm inclined to inject
>          > > >> > raw HTML.
>          > > >> > > It's much
>          > > >> > >
>          > > >> > > IMNSHO, this is unhappy inclination. I very hope if not
>          > > >> > Web then at
>          > > >> > > least Silk allows you to use objects, not strings
>          > > >> > regularly. It has
>          > > >> > > different approach, maybe having simple methods
>         returning
>          > > >> > array of
>          > > >> > > elements / a wrapped DocumentFragment could be seen as
>          > > >> > flexible enough
>          > > >> > > (while retaining objects all the way).
>          > > >> > >
>          > > >> > > > more flexible than the programmatic approach and is
>          > > >> > much more
>          > > >> > > natural
>          > > >> > > > for Amber (than it is for Pharo). However, I still
>         need
>          > > >> > to solve the
>          > > >> > > > issue of
>          > > >> > > >
>          > > >> > > > (('#myForm1 *'asJQuery)filter:':input')
>          > > >> > > >
>          > > >> > > > crapping out on me when a false value causes a break
>          > > >> > from the loop.
>          > > >> > > >
>          > > >> > > >
>          > > >> > > > On Thursday, 11 June 2015 01:24:27 UTC-4, Martin Bähr
>          > > >> > wrote:
>          > > >> > > >
>          > > >> > > > Excerpts from Richard Eng's message of 2015-06-11
>          > > >> > 05:40:09 +0200:
>          > > >> > > > > Thanks to Herby's (very extensive) proofreading and
>          > > >> > vetting, I've
>          > > >> > > > made many
>          > > >> > > > > substantial changes to the article, esp. the coding
>          > > >> > examples.
>          > > >> > > > It's now
>          > > >> > > > > ready for publishing and I've posted it at Reddit:
>          > > >> > > > >
>          > > >> > > > >
>          > > >> > > >
>          > > >> > >
>          > > >> >
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Re: A Gentle Introduction to Amber

Herby Vojčík
In reply to this post by horrido


Richard Eng wrote:

> I think I like this style best:
>
> '#client-main' asSilk
>    FORM
>      TABLE in: [ :table |
>        table TR in: [ :row |
>          row TD: 'Username:'.
>          row TD INPUT: 'name'->'name' ].
>        table TR in: [ :row |
>          row TD: 'Password:'.
>          row TD INPUT: {'name'->'password'. 'type'->'password'} ].
>        table TR TD INPUT: {'type'->'submit'. 'value'->'Okay'} ]

I sort-of understand, it is the shortest of all the examples, and
resembling Seaside the most.

OTOH, this is the most un-Silk one, as Silk has the philosophy of
"putting bunch of things on to a stream", so in case you extracted parts
of your structure to another method, the method should return directly
the thing to put on the stream (array of elements or Silk newStream
holding those elements), so it looks something like:

   '#client-main' asSilk FORM TABLE
     TR: self usernameRowContent;
     TR: self passwordRowContent;
     TR: self submitRowContent

or, returning with enclosing <tr>,

   '#client-main' asSilk FORM TABLE: {
     self usernameRow.
     self passwordRow.
     self submitRow }

not as it is done with Web (and would be needed with this block-based
philosphy):

   table := '#client-main' asSilk FORM TABLE.
   self renderUsernameRowOn: table.
   self renderPasswordRowOn: table.
   self renderSubmitRowOn: table

eventually

   table := '#client-main' asSilk FORM TABLE.
   self renderUsernameRowContentsOn: table TR.
   self renderPasswordRowContentsOn: table TR.
   self renderSubmitRowContentOn: table TR

IOW, I tried to make Silk less imperative and more descriptive;
especially in that notion that extraction should not be done with
renderXxxOn: methods but with xxx / xxxContent methods.

But, of course, you are the one writing the article.

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Re: A Gentle Introduction to Amber

horrido
In reply to this post by Herby Vojčík
Maybe I'm just too dense, but I don't understand the mechanism behind 'FORM TABLE'. FORM returns a form element to which you send the TABLE message? That doesn't make sense to me. FORM and TABLE are both DOM elements.

On Thursday, 25 June 2015 06:39:15 UTC-4, Herby wrote:


Richard Eng wrote:

> I think I like this style best:
>
> '#client-main' asSilk
>    FORM
>      TABLE in: [ :table |
>        table TR in: [ :row |
>          row TD: 'Username:'.
>          row TD INPUT: 'name'->'name' ].
>        table TR in: [ :row |
>          row TD: 'Password:'.
>          row TD INPUT: {'name'->'password'. 'type'->'password'} ].
>        table TR TD INPUT: {'type'->'submit'. 'value'->'Okay'} ]
>
> But I'm puzzled by 'FORM' and 'TABLE'. You don't actually say what these
> are shortcuts for, and I can't figure out how to add an attribute, eg,

How, "don't say", am I really not saying that TAG creates an empty
element and TAG: is just convenience way to also put a content to It?

I am pretty sure I _am_ (though maybe only once and you missed it).

(with same auto-insert if sent to existing element and
just-create-in-thin-air if sent to Silk directly)

> 'id'->'myForm1'. I've tried various things to no avail.
>
>
> On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 16:00:24 UTC-4, Herby wrote:
>
>
>
>     Richard Eng wrote:
>      > You're right. The last example did not break.
>
>     Released 0.1.4 with `Silk TAG:` working.
>
>      > On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 15:25:42 UTC-4, Herby wrote:
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      > Richard Eng wrote:
>      > > I notice that the class-side #doesNotUnderstand: is slightly
>      > different
>      > > from the instance-side #doesNotUnderstand:, which is why your
>      > examples
>      > > break. You're right, when I do 'Silk new TAG:', it works.
>      >
>      > I told `Silk newStream TAG:`, `Silk new TAG:` does something
>     slightly
>      > different (of course, '#client-div' asSilk is also an instance,
>     that's
>      > why there the TAG: form works as well; also the last example uses
>      > instances, so AfAICT, it is not breaking (you wrote all of them
>      > break)).
>      >
>      > > On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 14:44:46 UTC-4, Herby wrote:
>      > >
>      > >
>      > >
>      > > Herby Vojčík wrote:
>      > > >
>      > > >
>      > > > Richard Eng wrote:
>      > > >> Here's what I've concluded...
>      > > >>
>      > > >> With the exception of #FORM:, *none* of the other TAG:'s
>     work. I
>      > > have to
>      > > >> use '<<' with 'Silk TAG'. That's why all of your example break.
>      > >
>      > > I looked at sources; you are mixing "Silk TAG:" with
>     "aSilkInstance
>      > > TAG:". It is indeed true that "Silk TAG:" does not work (from the
>      > > examples it is clear, though, that it is useful), and on the other
>      > > hand,
>      > > all "aSilkInstance TAG:" work (not just FORM:).
>      > >
>      > > Nevertheless, it should be easy to use "Silk newStream TAG:"
>      > instead of
>      > > "Silk TAG:" and it should just work.
>      > >
>      > > I will probably add direct "Silk TAG:".
>      > >
>      > > > I just don't believe that, #FORM: has no specialty at all and
>      > > Silk has
>      > > > unit tests which test lots of scenarios, including making some
>      > table
>      > > > using TAG and TAG: messages.
>      > > >
>      > > >> On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 12:29:27 UTC-4, Richard Eng wrote:
>      > > >>
>      > > >> Where you use 'Silk open', I also get:
>      > > >>
>      > > >> Silk does not understand #open
>      > > >
>      > > > #open must just work, it's normally implemented (in DOMite, from
>      > > which
>      > > > Silk inherits).
>      > > >
>      > > > You must have something wrong in your setup.
>      > > >
>      > > >> On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 12:22:40 UTC-4, Richard Eng wrote:
>      > > >>
>      > > >> In all of your code examples where you use #TD:, I get:
>      > > >>
>      > > >> Silk does not understand #TD:
>      > > >> *
>      > > >> *
>      > > >> (I'm just cut-and-pasting into my application.)
>      > > >>
>      > > >> Am I doing something wrong, or is your article incorrect?
>      > > >>
>      > > >>
>      > > >> On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 04:48:54 UTC-4, Herby wrote:
>      > > >>
>      > > >>
>      > > >>
>      > > >> Richard Eng wrote:
>      > > >> > Hmmm, something's wrong. Even with 'Silk TD LABEL:', the
>      > > >> cells in the
>      > > >> > table are not aligning correctly. This was never a
>      > > >> problem with the Web
>      > > >> > package.
>      > > >> >
>      > > >> >
>      > > >> > On Tuesday, 23 June 2015 20:53:23 UTC-4, Richard Eng wrote:
>      > > >> >
>      > > >> > Oh, so simple:
>      > > >> >
>      > > >> > Silk TD LABEL: 'Username:'
>      > > >> >
>      > > >> >
>      > > >> > On Tuesday, 23 June 2015 20:51:04 UTC-4, Richard Eng wrote:
>      > > >> >
>      > > >> > Hmmm...
>      > > >> >
>      > > >> > Silk does not understand #TD:
>      > > >> >
>      > > >> > What's the correct way to add a label?
>      > > >> >
>      > > >> >
>      > > >> > On Thursday, 11 June 2015 11:07:05 UTC-4, Herby wrote:
>      > > >> >
>      > > >> >
>      > > >> >
>      > > >> > Richard Eng wrote:
>      > > >> > > I don't disagree with you, but as Martin pointed out, in
>      > > >> > a typical web
>      > > >> > > application project, you are *given* HTML; you are not
>      > > >> > asked to
>      > > >> > > write/generate HTML.
>      > > >> > >
>      > > >> > > Nevertheless, in the next installment of the Amber
>      > > >> > tutorial, I *will* be
>      > > >> > > examining Silk.
>      > > >> > >
>      > > >> > >
>      > > >> > > On Thursday, 11 June 2015 10:50:36 UTC-4, Herby wrote:
>      > > >> > >
>      > > >> > >
>      > > >> > >
>      > > >> > > Richard Eng wrote:
>      > > >> > > > It's very easy to insert raw HTML instead of using
>      > > >> > HTMLCanvas.
>      > > >> > > For example,
>      > > >> > > >
>      > > >> > > > ||
>      > > >> > > > '#client-main'asJQuery append:
>      > > >> > > > '<form>
>      > > >> > > > <table>
>      > > >> > > > <tr><td>Username:</td><td><input name="name"></td></tr>
>      > > >> > > > <tr><td>Password:</td><td><input name="password"
>      > > >> > > type="password"></td></tr>
>      > > >> > > > <tr><td><input type="submit" value="Okay"></td></tr>
>      > > >> > > > </table>
>      > > >> > > > </form>'
>      > > >> >
>      > > >> > Just in case, above thing could probably written this way in
>      > > >> > Silk:
>      > > >> >
>      > > >> > '#client-main' asSilk
>      > > >> > FORM
>      > > >> > TABLE
>      > > >> > TR: {
>      > > >> > Silk TD: 'Username:'.
>      > > >> > Silk TD INPUT: 'name'->'name' };
>      > > >> > TR: {
>      > > >> > Silk TD: 'Password'.
>      > > >> > Silk TD INPUT: { 'name'->'password'. 'type'->'password' }};
>      > > >> > TR: {
>      > > >> > Silk TD INPUT: { 'type'->'submit'. 'value'->'Okay' }
>      > > >>
>      > > >> This is not correct code. See the medium article for correct
>      > > >> pieces.
>      > > >>
>      > > >> >
>      > > >> > Of course, it could be written other ways, too, as it is
>      > > >> > pretty flexible
>      > > >> > in ways how to insert content into an element. This piece
>      > > >> > uses `TAG:
>      > > >> > content` convenient method heavily.
>      > > >> >
>      > > >> > (uppercase needed, as DNU is used to generate tags from any
>      > > >> > uppercase
>      > > >> > message, so you can insert you custom tags as well)
>      > > >> >
>      > > >> > > >
>      > > >> > > > I just thought it'd be nice to use Smalltalk to
>      > > >> > programmatically
>      > > >> > > create
>      > > >> > > > the HTML. I used Seaside many years ago, so it's what
>      > > >> I'm
>      > > >> > > familiar with;
>      > > >> > > > in Seaside, there was no other way to use HTML (most web
>      > > >> > > frameworks use
>      > > >> > > > HTML templates).
>      > > >> > > >
>      > > >> > > > In fact, for all future work, I'm inclined to inject
>      > > >> > raw HTML.
>      > > >> > > It's much
>      > > >> > >
>      > > >> > > IMNSHO, this is unhappy inclination. I very hope if not
>      > > >> > Web then at
>      > > >> > > least Silk allows you to use objects, not strings
>      > > >> > regularly. It has
>      > > >> > > different approach, maybe having simple methods returning
>      > > >> > array of
>      > > >> > > elements / a wrapped DocumentFragment could be seen as
>      > > >> > flexible enough
>      > > >> > > (while retaining objects all the way).
>      > > >> > >
>      > > >> > > > more flexible than the programmatic approach and is
>      > > >> > much more
>      > > >> > > natural
>      > > >> > > > for Amber (than it is for Pharo). However, I still need
>      > > >> > to solve the
>      > > >> > > > issue of
>      > > >> > > >
>      > > >> > > > (('#myForm1 *'asJQuery)filter:':input')
>      > > >> > > >
>      > > >> > > > crapping out on me when a false value causes a break
>      > > >> > from the loop.
>      > > >> > > >
>      > > >> > > >
>      > > >> > > > On Thursday, 11 June 2015 01:24:27 UTC-4, Martin Bähr
>      > > >> > wrote:
>      > > >> > > >
>      > > >> > > > Excerpts from Richard Eng's message of 2015-06-11
>      > > >> > 05:40:09 +0200:
>      > > >> > > > > Thanks to Herby's (very extensive) proofreading and
>      > > >> > vetting, I've
>      > > >> > > > made many
>      > > >> > > > > substantial changes to the article, esp. the coding
>      > > >> > examples.
>      > > >> > > > It's now
>      > > >> > > > > ready for publishing and I've posted it at Reddit:
>      > > >> > > > >
>      > > >> > > > >
>      > > >> > > >
>      > > >> > >
>      > > >> >
>      > > >>
>      > >
>      >
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>     <<a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/39e5cq/a_gentle_introduction_to_amber/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2Fprogramming%2Fcomments%2F39e5cq%2Fa_gentle_introduction_to_amber%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHzIh-l4QOfHChMALF2ZVYKWViSaw';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2Fprogramming%2Fcomments%2F39e5cq%2Fa_gentle_introduction_to_amber%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHzIh-l4QOfHChMALF2ZVYKWViSaw';return true;">http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/39e5cq/a_gentle_introduction_to_amber/
>     <<a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/39e5cq/a_gentle_introduction_to_amber/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2Fprogramming%2Fcomments%2F39e5cq%2Fa_gentle_introduction_to_amber%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHzIh-l4QOfHChMALF2ZVYKWViSaw';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2Fprogramming%2Fcomments%2F39e5cq%2Fa_gentle_introduction_to_amber%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHzIh-l4QOfHChMALF2ZVYKWViSaw';return true;">http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/39e5cq/a_gentle_introduction_to_amber/>>>>>>>
>
>      >
>      > >
>      > > >>
>      > > >>
>      > > >> >
>      > > >> > >
>      > > >> > > >
>      > > >> > > >
>      > > >> > > > the article reads nicely, but i wonder, why the
>      > > >> > excursion on switch?
>      > > >> > > > it is not
>      > > >> > > > specific to amber, and it gives the impression that you
>      > > >> > feel the
>      > > >> > > > need to
>      > > >> > > > apologize for it.
>      > > >> > > >
>      > > >> > > > this should be an aside linked to a separate post, if
>      > > >> > it's mentioned
>      > > >> > > > at all.
>      > > >> > > >
>      > > >> > > > what i would like to know is, if there is a way to
>      > > >> not use
>      > > >> > > smalltalk to
>      > > >> > > > generate html, but just have it as plain raw html. the
>      > > >> > example you
>      > > >> > > > give doesn't
>      > > >> > > > demonstrate that the smalltalk variant is easier to
>      > > >> > read. on the
>      > > >> > > > contrary.
>      > > >> > > >
>      > > >> > > > i find plain html much nicer to read, and it even looks
>      > > >> > like
>      > > >> > > > smalltalk is more
>      > > >> > > > typing.
>      > > >> > > >
>      > > >> > > > also, in day to day work, i very often have to deal
>      > > >> > with html given
>      > > >> > > > to me by
>      > > >> > > > others. i don't write html, our designers do.
>      > > >> > > >
>      > > >> > > > having to translate the designers output into smalltalk
>      > > >> > is just
>      > > >> > > > busywork. and
>      > > >> > > > having to update for changes even worse. it's just not
>      > > >> > practical.
>      > > >> > > >
>      > > >> > > > finally though, i really like that you are using a REST
>      > > >> > api example.
>      > > >> > > > that's
>      > > >> > > > right up my alley, and when i find some time i'll try
>      > > >> > to get this to
>      > > >> > > > run.
>      > > >> > > >
>      > > >> > > > greetings, martin.
>      > > >> > > >
>      > > >> > > > --
>      > > >> > > > eKita - the online platform for your entire academic
>      > > >> life
>      > > >> > > > --
>      > > >> > > > chief engineer eKita.co
>      > > >> > > > pike programmer <a href="http://pike.lysator.liu.se" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fpike.lysator.liu.se\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEvQ03oa3TB9z8nTXi-CkmrjqorFA';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fpike.lysator.liu.se\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEvQ03oa3TB9z8nTXi-CkmrjqorFA';return true;">pike.lysator.liu.se
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>      > > <<a href="http://pike.lysator.liu.se" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fpike.lysator.liu.se\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEvQ03oa3TB9z8nTXi-CkmrjqorFA';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fpike.lysator.liu.se\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEvQ03oa3TB9z8nTXi-CkmrjqorFA';return true;">http://pike.lysator.liu.se>
>      > > >> <<a href="http://pike.lysator.liu.se" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fpike.lysator.liu.se\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEvQ03oa3TB9z8nTXi-CkmrjqorFA';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fpike.lysator.liu.se\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEvQ03oa3TB9z8nTXi-CkmrjqorFA';return true;">http://pike.lysator.liu.se>
>      > > >> > <<a href="http://pike.lysator.liu.se" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fpike.lysator.liu.se\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEvQ03oa3TB9z8nTXi-CkmrjqorFA';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fpike.lysator.liu.se\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEvQ03oa3TB9z8nTXi-CkmrjqorFA';return true;">http://pike.lysator.liu.se> <<a href="http://pike.lysator.liu.se" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fpike.lysator.liu.se\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEvQ03oa3TB9z8nTXi-CkmrjqorFA';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fpike.lysator.liu.se\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEvQ03oa3TB9z8nTXi-CkmrjqorFA';return true;">http://pike.lysator.liu.se>
>      > > >> > > <<a href="http://pike.lysator.liu.se" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fpike.lysator.liu.se\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEvQ03oa3TB9z8nTXi-CkmrjqorFA';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fpike.lysator.liu.se\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEvQ03oa3TB9z8nTXi-CkmrjqorFA';return true;">http://pike.lysator.liu.se>
>      > > >> > > > <a href="http://caudium.net" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fcaudium.net\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEYzslt9t1j0dGxb_Ka8faLOGHwqQ';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fcaudium.net\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEYzslt9t1j0dGxb_Ka8faLOGHwqQ';return true;">caudium.net <<a href="http://caudium.net" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fcaudium.net\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEYzslt9t1j0dGxb_Ka8faLOGHwqQ';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fcaudium.net\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEYzslt9t1j0dGxb_Ka8faLOGHwqQ';return true;">http://caudium.net> <<a href="http://caudium.net" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fcaudium.net\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEYzslt9t1j0dGxb_Ka8faLOGHwqQ';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fcaudium.net\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEYzslt9t1j0dGxb_Ka8faLOGHwqQ';return true;">http://caudium.net>
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>      > > >> <<a href="http://caudium.net" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fcaudium.net\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEYzslt9t1j0dGxb_Ka8faLOGHwqQ';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fcaudium.net\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEYzslt9t1j0dGxb_Ka8faLOGHwqQ';return true;">http://caudium.net>
>      > > >> > <<a href="http://caudium.net" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fcaudium.net\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEYzslt9t1j0dGxb_Ka8faLOGHwqQ';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fcaudium.net\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEYzslt9t1j0dGxb_Ka8faLOGHwqQ';return true;">http://caudium.net>
>      > > >> > > <a href="http://societyserver.org" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNE_5aJ_mdZkvSrOv1cEqLp4WlWhag';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNE_5aJ_mdZkvSrOv1cEqLp4WlWhag';return true;">societyserver.org <<a href="http://societyserver.org" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNE_5aJ_mdZkvSrOv1cEqLp4WlWhag';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNE_5aJ_mdZkvSrOv1cEqLp4WlWhag';return true;">http://societyserver.org>
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>      > > <<a href="http://societyserver.org" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNE_5aJ_mdZkvSrOv1cEqLp4WlWhag';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNE_5aJ_mdZkvSrOv1cEqLp4WlWhag';return true;">http://societyserver.org>
>      > > >> <<a href="http://societyserver.org" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNE_5aJ_mdZkvSrOv1cEqLp4WlWhag';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNE_5aJ_mdZkvSrOv1cEqLp4WlWhag';return true;">http://societyserver.org>
>      > > >> > <<a href="http://societyserver.org" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNE_5aJ_mdZkvSrOv1cEqLp4WlWhag';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNE_5aJ_mdZkvSrOv1cEqLp4WlWhag';return true;">http://societyserver.org>
>      > > >> > > > <<a href="http://societyserver.org" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNE_5aJ_mdZkvSrOv1cEqLp4WlWhag';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNE_5aJ_mdZkvSrOv1cEqLp4WlWhag';return true;">http://societyserver.org>
>      > > >> > > > secretary <a href="http://beijinglug.org" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fbeijinglug.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGcMonCqhzNZNa3GwWBKaTiTm8E4Q';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fbeijinglug.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGcMonCqhzNZNa3GwWBKaTiTm8E4Q';return true;">beijinglug.org <<a href="http://beijinglug.org" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fbeijinglug.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGcMonCqhzNZNa3GwWBKaTiTm8E4Q';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fbeijinglug.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGcMonCqhzNZNa3GwWBKaTiTm8E4Q';return true;">http://beijinglug.org>
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>      > > <<a href="http://beijinglug.org" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fbeijinglug.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGcMonCqhzNZNa3GwWBKaTiTm8E4Q';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fbeijinglug.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGcMonCqhzNZNa3GwWBKaTiTm8E4Q';return true;">http://beijinglug.org>
>      > > >> <<a href="http://beijinglug.org" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fbeijinglug.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGcMonCqhzNZNa3GwWBKaTiTm8E4Q';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fbeijinglug.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGcMonCqhzNZNa3GwWBKaTiTm8E4Q';return true;">http://beijinglug.org>
>      > > >> > <<a href="http://beijinglug.org" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fbeijinglug.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGcMonCqhzNZNa3GwWBKaTiTm8E4Q';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fbeijinglug.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGcMonCqhzNZNa3GwWBKaTiTm8E4Q';return true;">http://beijinglug.org>
>      > > >> > > <<a href="http://beijinglug.org" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fbeijinglug.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGcMonCqhzNZNa3GwWBKaTiTm8E4Q';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fbeijinglug.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGcMonCqhzNZNa3GwWBKaTiTm8E4Q';return true;">http://beijinglug.org>
>      > > >> > > > mentor <a href="http://fossasia.org" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Ffossasia.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFMwaBnF0Iu9Prg3-iLxZ5BhKSD_g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Ffossasia.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFMwaBnF0Iu9Prg3-iLxZ5BhKSD_g';return true;">fossasia.org <<a href="http://fossasia.org" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Ffossasia.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFMwaBnF0Iu9Prg3-iLxZ5BhKSD_g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Ffossasia.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFMwaBnF0Iu9Prg3-iLxZ5BhKSD_g';return true;">http://fossasia.org>
>     <<a href="http://fossasia.org" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Ffossasia.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFMwaBnF0Iu9Prg3-iLxZ5BhKSD_g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Ffossasia.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFMwaBnF0Iu9Prg3-iLxZ5BhKSD_g';return true;">http://fossasia.org>
>      > <<a href="http://fossasia.org" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Ffossasia.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFMwaBnF0Iu9Prg3-iLxZ5BhKSD_g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Ffossasia.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFMwaBnF0Iu9Prg3-iLxZ5BhKSD_g';return true;">http://fossasia.org>
>      > > <<a href="http://fossasia.org" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Ffossasia.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFMwaBnF0Iu9Prg3-iLxZ5BhKSD_g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Ffossasia.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFMwaBnF0Iu9Prg3-iLxZ5BhKSD_g';return true;">http://fossasia.org>
>      > > >> <<a href="http://fossasia.org" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Ffossasia.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFMwaBnF0Iu9Prg3-iLxZ5BhKSD_g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Ffossasia.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFMwaBnF0Iu9Prg3-iLxZ5BhKSD_g';return true;">http://fossasia.org>
>      > > >> > <<a href="http://fossasia.org" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Ffossasia.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFMwaBnF0Iu9Prg3-iLxZ5BhKSD_g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Ffossasia.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFMwaBnF0Iu9Prg3-iLxZ5BhKSD_g';return true;">http://fossasia.org> <<a href="http://fossasia.org" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Ffossasia.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFMwaBnF0Iu9Prg3-iLxZ5BhKSD_g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Ffossasia.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFMwaBnF0Iu9Prg3-iLxZ5BhKSD_g';return true;">http://fossasia.org>
>      > > >> > > > foresight developer <a href="http://foresightlinux.org" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fforesightlinux.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHaJ9_Y9lcY21yw_D2lZAE3mu_Jtg';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fforesightlinux.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHaJ9_Y9lcY21yw_D2lZAE3mu_Jtg';return true;">foresightlinux.org
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>      > > >> <<a href="http://foresightlinux.org" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fforesightlinux.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHaJ9_Y9lcY21yw_D2lZAE3mu_Jtg';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fforesightlinux.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHaJ9_Y9lcY21yw_D2lZAE3mu_Jtg';return true;">http://foresightlinux.org>
>      > > >> > <<a href="http://foresightlinux.org" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fforesightlinux.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHaJ9_Y9lcY21yw_D2lZAE3mu_Jtg';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fforesightlinux.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHaJ9_Y9lcY21yw_D2lZAE3mu_Jtg';return true;">http://foresightlinux.org>
>      > > >> > > <<a href="http://foresightlinux.org" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fforesightlinux.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHaJ9_Y9lcY21yw_D2lZAE3mu_Jtg';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fforesightlinux.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHaJ9_Y9lcY21yw_D2lZAE3mu_Jtg';return true;">http://foresightlinux.org> <<a href="http://foresightlinux.org" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fforesightlinux.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHaJ9_Y9lcY21yw_D2lZAE3mu_Jtg';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fforesightlinux.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHaJ9_Y9lcY21yw_D2lZAE3mu_Jtg';return true;">http://foresightlinux.org>
>      > > >> > > > <a href="http://realss.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Frealss.com\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHih6WMCaKD68bQT72_Uh4uQD5eQ';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Frealss.com\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHih6WMCaKD68bQT72_Uh4uQD5eQ';return true;">realss.com <<a href="http://realss.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Frealss.com\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHih6WMCaKD68bQT72_Uh4uQD5eQ';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Frealss.com\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHih6WMCaKD68bQT72_Uh4uQD5eQ';return true;">http://realss.com> <<a href="http://realss.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Frealss.com\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHih6WMCaKD68bQT72_Uh4uQD5eQ';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Frealss.com\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHih6WMCaKD68bQT72_Uh4uQD5eQ';return true;">http://realss.com>
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>      > > >> <<a href="http://realss.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Frealss.com\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHih6WMCaKD68bQT72_Uh4uQD5eQ';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Frealss.com\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHih6WMCaKD68bQT72_Uh4uQD5eQ';return true;">http://realss.com>
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>      > > >> > > > unix sysadmin
>      > > >> > > > Martin Bähr working in china
>      > > >> > <a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
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>      > > <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
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>     <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>>>
>      > > >> <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
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>      > <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>>
>      > > <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
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>      > <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>>>>
>      > > >> > <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>
>      > <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>>
>      > > <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>
>      > <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>>>
>      > > >> <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>
>      > <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>>
>      > > <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>
>      > <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>>>>>
>      > > >> > > <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>
>      > <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>>
>      > > <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>
>      > <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>>>
>      > > >> <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>
>      > <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>>
>      > > <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>
>      > <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>>>>
>      > > >> > <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>
>      > <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>>
>      > > <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>
>      > <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>>>
>      > > >> <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>
>      > <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>>
>      > > <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>
>      > <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>>>>>>
>      > > >> > > > <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>
>      > <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>>
>      > > <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>
>      > <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>>>
>      > > >> <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
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>      > <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>>
>      > > <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
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>      > <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>>>>
>      > > >> > <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>
>      > <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>>
>      > > <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>
>      > <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>>>
>      > > >> <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>
>      > <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>>
>      > > <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>
>      > <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>>>>>
>      > > >> > > <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>
>      > <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>>
>      > > <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>
>      > <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>>>
>      > > >> <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
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>      > > <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
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>     <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>>>>
>      > > >> > <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
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>      > <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
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>      > > <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
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>      > > >> <<a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g';return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
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Re: A Gentle Introduction to Amber

horrido
In reply to this post by Herby Vojčík
Why not? Because I'm still new at this and I'm not at all familiar with all the in's and out's of JQuery.

BTW, with Silk I guess there's no way to wire the submit button with an Amber method like you do in Web:


            html input
type: 'submit';
value: 'Collect Input Field Values';
onClick: [ self collectValues ]
Silk INPUT: {'type'->'submit'. 'value'->'Okay'}  "how to call #collectValues ?"
I guess I'll have to find some weird workaround...


On Thursday, 25 June 2015 06:45:36 UTC-4, Herby wrote:


Richard Eng wrote:
> Another question I have is: Since Silk is a way to *not* rely on JQuery,
> how would you collect the values in the form without using JQuery? IOW,
> I can't use...
>
> (('#myForm1 *'asJQuery)filter:':input')

AFAIK ':input', ':checked', ':visible' and others are jQuery-specific
and are not actually part of CSS machinery.

In Silk, you can only do what classical DOM-built CSS allows you to do, so:

   '#myForm' asJQuery allAt: 'input,select,option'

will get you the array of Silk-wrapped <input>s, <select>s and <option>s
that reside under #myForm.

There is also at: to only get first such element; and you can send at:
and allAt: directly to Silk to search the whole document.

BTW, '#myForm *' asJQuery filter: ':input' scares me. Why not '#myForm'
asJQuery children: ':input' or '#myForm' asJQuery find: ':input'?

> On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 19:09:34 UTC-4, Richard Eng wrote:
>
>     I think I like this style best:
>
>     '#client-main' asSilk
>        FORM
>          TABLE in: [ :table |
>            table TR in: [ :row |
>              row TD: 'Username:'.
>              row TD INPUT: 'name'->'name' ].
>            table TR in: [ :row |
>              row TD: 'Password:'.
>              row TD INPUT: {'name'->'password'. 'type'->'password'} ].
>            table TR TD INPUT: {'type'->'submit'. 'value'->'Okay'} ]
>
>     But I'm puzzled by 'FORM' and 'TABLE'. You don't actually say what
>     these are shortcuts for, and I can't figure out how to add an
>     attribute, eg, 'id'->'myForm1'. I've tried various things to no avail.
>
>
>     On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 16:00:24 UTC-4, Herby wrote:
>
>
>
>         Richard Eng wrote:
>          > You're right. The last example did not break.
>
>         Released 0.1.4 with `Silk TAG:` working.
>
>          > On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 15:25:42 UTC-4, Herby wrote:
>          >
>          >
>          >
>          > Richard Eng wrote:
>          > > I notice that the class-side #doesNotUnderstand: is slightly
>          > different
>          > > from the instance-side #doesNotUnderstand:, which is why your
>          > examples
>          > > break. You're right, when I do 'Silk new TAG:', it works.
>          >
>          > I told `Silk newStream TAG:`, `Silk new TAG:` does something
>         slightly
>          > different (of course, '#client-div' asSilk is also an
>         instance, that's
>          > why there the TAG: form works as well; also the last example
>         uses
>          > instances, so AfAICT, it is not breaking (you wrote all of them
>          > break)).
>          >
>          > > On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 14:44:46 UTC-4, Herby wrote:
>          > >
>          > >
>          > >
>          > > Herby Vojčík wrote:
>          > > >
>          > > >
>          > > > Richard Eng wrote:
>          > > >> Here's what I've concluded...
>          > > >>
>          > > >> With the exception of #FORM:, *none* of the other TAG:'s
>         work. I
>          > > have to
>          > > >> use '<<' with 'Silk TAG'. That's why all of your example
>         break.
>          > >
>          > > I looked at sources; you are mixing "Silk TAG:" with
>         "aSilkInstance
>          > > TAG:". It is indeed true that "Silk TAG:" does not work
>         (from the
>          > > examples it is clear, though, that it is useful), and on
>         the other
>          > > hand,
>          > > all "aSilkInstance TAG:" work (not just FORM:).
>          > >
>          > > Nevertheless, it should be easy to use "Silk newStream TAG:"
>          > instead of
>          > > "Silk TAG:" and it should just work.
>          > >
>          > > I will probably add direct "Silk TAG:".
>          > >
>          > > > I just don't believe that, #FORM: has no specialty at all
>         and
>          > > Silk has
>          > > > unit tests which test lots of scenarios, including making
>         some
>          > table
>          > > > using TAG and TAG: messages.
>          > > >
>          > > >> On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 12:29:27 UTC-4, Richard Eng
>         wrote:
>          > > >>
>          > > >> Where you use 'Silk open', I also get:
>          > > >>
>          > > >> Silk does not understand #open
>          > > >
>          > > > #open must just work, it's normally implemented (in
>         DOMite, from
>          > > which
>          > > > Silk inherits).
>          > > >
>          > > > You must have something wrong in your setup.
>          > > >
>          > > >> On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 12:22:40 UTC-4, Richard Eng
>         wrote:
>          > > >>
>          > > >> In all of your code examples where you use #TD:, I get:
>          > > >>
>          > > >> Silk does not understand #TD:
>          > > >> *
>          > > >> *
>          > > >> (I'm just cut-and-pasting into my application.)
>          > > >>
>          > > >> Am I doing something wrong, or is your article incorrect?
>          > > >>
>          > > >>
>          > > >> On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 04:48:54 UTC-4, Herby wrote:
>          > > >>
>          > > >>
>          > > >>
>          > > >> Richard Eng wrote:
>          > > >> > Hmmm, something's wrong. Even with 'Silk TD LABEL:', the
>          > > >> cells in the
>          > > >> > table are not aligning correctly. This was never a
>          > > >> problem with the Web
>          > > >> > package.
>          > > >> >
>          > > >> >
>          > > >> > On Tuesday, 23 June 2015 20:53:23 UTC-4, Richard Eng
>         wrote:
>          > > >> >
>          > > >> > Oh, so simple:
>          > > >> >
>          > > >> > Silk TD LABEL: 'Username:'
>          > > >> >
>          > > >> >
>          > > >> > On Tuesday, 23 June 2015 20:51:04 UTC-4, Richard Eng
>         wrote:
>          > > >> >
>          > > >> > Hmmm...
>          > > >> >
>          > > >> > Silk does not understand #TD:
>          > > >> >
>          > > >> > What's the correct way to add a label?
>          > > >> >
>          > > >> >
>          > > >> > On Thursday, 11 June 2015 11:07:05 UTC-4, Herby wrote:
>          > > >> >
>          > > >> >
>          > > >> >
>          > > >> > Richard Eng wrote:
>          > > >> > > I don't disagree with you, but as Martin pointed
>         out, in
>          > > >> > a typical web
>          > > >> > > application project, you are *given* HTML; you are not
>          > > >> > asked to
>          > > >> > > write/generate HTML.
>          > > >> > >
>          > > >> > > Nevertheless, in the next installment of the Amber
>          > > >> > tutorial, I *will* be
>          > > >> > > examining Silk.
>          > > >> > >
>          > > >> > >
>          > > >> > > On Thursday, 11 June 2015 10:50:36 UTC-4, Herby wrote:
>          > > >> > >
>          > > >> > >
>          > > >> > >
>          > > >> > > Richard Eng wrote:
>          > > >> > > > It's very easy to insert raw HTML instead of using
>          > > >> > HTMLCanvas.
>          > > >> > > For example,
>          > > >> > > >
>          > > >> > > > ||
>          > > >> > > > '#client-main'asJQuery append:
>          > > >> > > > '<form>
>          > > >> > > > <table>
>          > > >> > > > <tr><td>Username:</td><td><input
>         name="name"></td></tr>
>          > > >> > > > <tr><td>Password:</td><td><input name="password"
>          > > >> > > type="password"></td></tr>
>          > > >> > > > <tr><td><input type="submit" value="Okay"></td></tr>
>          > > >> > > > </table>
>          > > >> > > > </form>'
>          > > >> >
>          > > >> > Just in case, above thing could probably written this
>         way in
>          > > >> > Silk:
>          > > >> >
>          > > >> > '#client-main' asSilk
>          > > >> > FORM
>          > > >> > TABLE
>          > > >> > TR: {
>          > > >> > Silk TD: 'Username:'.
>          > > >> > Silk TD INPUT: 'name'->'name' };
>          > > >> > TR: {
>          > > >> > Silk TD: 'Password'.
>          > > >> > Silk TD INPUT: { 'name'->'password'.
>         'type'->'password' }};
>          > > >> > TR: {
>          > > >> > Silk TD INPUT: { 'type'->'submit'. 'value'->'Okay' }
>          > > >>
>          > > >> This is not correct code. See the medium article for
>         correct
>          > > >> pieces.
>          > > >>
>          > > >> >
>          > > >> > Of course, it could be written other ways, too, as it is
>          > > >> > pretty flexible
>          > > >> > in ways how to insert content into an element. This piece
>          > > >> > uses `TAG:
>          > > >> > content` convenient method heavily.
>          > > >> >
>          > > >> > (uppercase needed, as DNU is used to generate tags
>         from any
>          > > >> > uppercase
>          > > >> > message, so you can insert you custom tags as well)
>          > > >> >
>          > > >> > > >
>          > > >> > > > I just thought it'd be nice to use Smalltalk to
>          > > >> > programmatically
>          > > >> > > create
>          > > >> > > > the HTML. I used Seaside many years ago, so it's what
>          > > >> I'm
>          > > >> > > familiar with;
>          > > >> > > > in Seaside, there was no other way to use HTML
>         (most web
>          > > >> > > frameworks use
>          > > >> > > > HTML templates).
>          > > >> > > >
>          > > >> > > > In fact, for all future work, I'm inclined to inject
>          > > >> > raw HTML.
>          > > >> > > It's much
>          > > >> > >
>          > > >> > > IMNSHO, this is unhappy inclination. I very hope if not
>          > > >> > Web then at
>          > > >> > > least Silk allows you to use objects, not strings
>          > > >> > regularly. It has
>          > > >> > > different approach, maybe having simple methods
>         returning
>          > > >> > array of
>          > > >> > > elements / a wrapped DocumentFragment could be seen as
>          > > >> > flexible enough
>          > > >> > > (while retaining objects all the way).
>          > > >> > >
>          > > >> > > > more flexible than the programmatic approach and is
>          > > >> > much more
>          > > >> > > natural
>          > > >> > > > for Amber (than it is for Pharo). However, I still
>         need
>          > > >> > to solve the
>          > > >> > > > issue of
>          > > >> > > >
>          > > >> > > > (('#myForm1 *'asJQuery)filter:':input')
>          > > >> > > >
>          > > >> > > > crapping out on me when a false value causes a break
>          > > >> > from the loop.
>          > > >> > > >
>          > > >> > > >
>          > > >> > > > On Thursday, 11 June 2015 01:24:27 UTC-4, Martin Bähr
>          > > >> > wrote:
>          > > >> > > >
>          > > >> > > > Excerpts from Richard Eng's message of 2015-06-11
>          > > >> > 05:40:09 +0200:
>          > > >> > > > > Thanks to Herby's (very extensive) proofreading and
>          > > >> > vetting, I've
>          > > >> > > > made many
>          > > >> > > > > substantial changes to the article, esp. the coding
>          > > >> > examples.
>          > > >> > > > It's now
>          > > >> > > > > ready for publishing and I've posted it at Reddit:
>          > > >> > > > >
>          > > >> > > > >
>          > > >> > > >
>          > > >> > >
>          > > >> >
>          > > >>
>          > >
>          >
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Re: A Gentle Introduction to Amber

Herby Vojčík
In reply to this post by horrido


Richard Eng wrote:
> Maybe I'm just too dense, but I don't understand the mechanism behind
> 'FORM TABLE'. FORM returns a form element to which you send the TABLE
> message? That doesn't make sense to me. FORM and TABLE are both DOM
> elements.

There are no DOM elements per se. You are in Smalltalk, play with
Workspace and Inspector, look at implementation. To clear the contents
of an element, you do the same which you do to any other stream (as it
is a stream in Silk): send #resetContents, as in `'#client-main' asSilk
resetContents`.

> On Thursday, 25 June 2015 06:39:15 UTC-4, Herby wrote:
>
>
>
>     Richard Eng wrote:
>      > I think I like this style best:
>      >
>      > '#client-main' asSilk
>      > FORM
>      > TABLE in: [ :table |
>      > table TR in: [ :row |
>      > row TD: 'Username:'.
>      > row TD INPUT: 'name'->'name' ].
>      > table TR in: [ :row |
>      > row TD: 'Password:'.
>      > row TD INPUT: {'name'->'password'. 'type'->'password'} ].
>      > table TR TD INPUT: {'type'->'submit'. 'value'->'Okay'} ]
>      >
>      > But I'm puzzled by 'FORM' and 'TABLE'. You don't actually say
>     what these
>      > are shortcuts for, and I can't figure out how to add an
>     attribute, eg,
>
>     How, "don't say", am I really not saying that TAG creates an empty
>     element and TAG: is just convenience way to also put a content to It?
>
>     I am pretty sure I _am_ (though maybe only once and you missed it).
>
>     (with same auto-insert if sent to existing element and
>     just-create-in-thin-air if sent to Silk directly)
>
>      > 'id'->'myForm1'. I've tried various things to no avail.
>      >
>      >
>      > On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 16:00:24 UTC-4, Herby wrote:
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      > Richard Eng wrote:
>      > > You're right. The last example did not break.
>      >
>      > Released 0.1.4 with `Silk TAG:` working.
>      >
>      > > On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 15:25:42 UTC-4, Herby wrote:
>      > >
>      > >
>      > >
>      > > Richard Eng wrote:
>      > > > I notice that the class-side #doesNotUnderstand: is slightly
>      > > different
>      > > > from the instance-side #doesNotUnderstand:, which is why your
>      > > examples
>      > > > break. You're right, when I do 'Silk new TAG:', it works.
>      > >
>      > > I told `Silk newStream TAG:`, `Silk new TAG:` does something
>      > slightly
>      > > different (of course, '#client-div' asSilk is also an instance,
>      > that's
>      > > why there the TAG: form works as well; also the last example uses
>      > > instances, so AfAICT, it is not breaking (you wrote all of them
>      > > break)).
>      > >
>      > > > On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 14:44:46 UTC-4, Herby wrote:
>      > > >
>      > > >
>      > > >
>      > > > Herby Vojčík wrote:
>      > > > >
>      > > > >
>      > > > > Richard Eng wrote:
>      > > > >> Here's what I've concluded...
>      > > > >>
>      > > > >> With the exception of #FORM:, *none* of the other TAG:'s
>      > work. I
>      > > > have to
>      > > > >> use '<<' with 'Silk TAG'. That's why all of your example
>     break.
>      > > >
>      > > > I looked at sources; you are mixing "Silk TAG:" with
>      > "aSilkInstance
>      > > > TAG:". It is indeed true that "Silk TAG:" does not work (from
>     the
>      > > > examples it is clear, though, that it is useful), and on the
>     other
>      > > > hand,
>      > > > all "aSilkInstance TAG:" work (not just FORM:).
>      > > >
>      > > > Nevertheless, it should be easy to use "Silk newStream TAG:"
>      > > instead of
>      > > > "Silk TAG:" and it should just work.
>      > > >
>      > > > I will probably add direct "Silk TAG:".
>      > > >
>      > > > > I just don't believe that, #FORM: has no specialty at all and
>      > > > Silk has
>      > > > > unit tests which test lots of scenarios, including making some
>      > > table
>      > > > > using TAG and TAG: messages.
>      > > > >
>      > > > >> On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 12:29:27 UTC-4, Richard Eng wrote:
>      > > > >>
>      > > > >> Where you use 'Silk open', I also get:
>      > > > >>
>      > > > >> Silk does not understand #open
>      > > > >
>      > > > > #open must just work, it's normally implemented (in DOMite,
>     from
>      > > > which
>      > > > > Silk inherits).
>      > > > >
>      > > > > You must have something wrong in your setup.
>      > > > >
>      > > > >> On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 12:22:40 UTC-4, Richard Eng wrote:
>      > > > >>
>      > > > >> In all of your code examples where you use #TD:, I get:
>      > > > >>
>      > > > >> Silk does not understand #TD:
>      > > > >> *
>      > > > >> *
>      > > > >> (I'm just cut-and-pasting into my application.)
>      > > > >>
>      > > > >> Am I doing something wrong, or is your article incorrect?
>      > > > >>
>      > > > >>
>      > > > >> On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 04:48:54 UTC-4, Herby wrote:
>      > > > >>
>      > > > >>
>      > > > >>
>      > > > >> Richard Eng wrote:
>      > > > >> > Hmmm, something's wrong. Even with 'Silk TD LABEL:', the
>      > > > >> cells in the
>      > > > >> > table are not aligning correctly. This was never a
>      > > > >> problem with the Web
>      > > > >> > package.
>      > > > >> >
>      > > > >> >
>      > > > >> > On Tuesday, 23 June 2015 20:53:23 UTC-4, Richard Eng wrote:
>      > > > >> >
>      > > > >> > Oh, so simple:
>      > > > >> >
>      > > > >> > Silk TD LABEL: 'Username:'
>      > > > >> >
>      > > > >> >
>      > > > >> > On Tuesday, 23 June 2015 20:51:04 UTC-4, Richard Eng wrote:
>      > > > >> >
>      > > > >> > Hmmm...
>      > > > >> >
>      > > > >> > Silk does not understand #TD:
>      > > > >> >
>      > > > >> > What's the correct way to add a label?
>      > > > >> >
>      > > > >> >
>      > > > >> > On Thursday, 11 June 2015 11:07:05 UTC-4, Herby wrote:
>      > > > >> >
>      > > > >> >
>      > > > >> >
>      > > > >> > Richard Eng wrote:
>      > > > >> > > I don't disagree with you, but as Martin pointed out, in
>      > > > >> > a typical web
>      > > > >> > > application project, you are *given* HTML; you are not
>      > > > >> > asked to
>      > > > >> > > write/generate HTML.
>      > > > >> > >
>      > > > >> > > Nevertheless, in the next installment of the Amber
>      > > > >> > tutorial, I *will* be
>      > > > >> > > examining Silk.
>      > > > >> > >
>      > > > >> > >
>      > > > >> > > On Thursday, 11 June 2015 10:50:36 UTC-4, Herby wrote:
>      > > > >> > >
>      > > > >> > >
>      > > > >> > >
>      > > > >> > > Richard Eng wrote:
>      > > > >> > > > It's very easy to insert raw HTML instead of using
>      > > > >> > HTMLCanvas.
>      > > > >> > > For example,
>      > > > >> > > >
>      > > > >> > > > ||
>      > > > >> > > > '#client-main'asJQuery append:
>      > > > >> > > > '<form>
>      > > > >> > > > <table>
>      > > > >> > > > <tr><td>Username:</td><td><input name="name"></td></tr>
>      > > > >> > > > <tr><td>Password:</td><td><input name="password"
>      > > > >> > > type="password"></td></tr>
>      > > > >> > > > <tr><td><input type="submit" value="Okay"></td></tr>
>      > > > >> > > > </table>
>      > > > >> > > > </form>'
>      > > > >> >
>      > > > >> > Just in case, above thing could probably written this
>     way in
>      > > > >> > Silk:
>      > > > >> >
>      > > > >> > '#client-main' asSilk
>      > > > >> > FORM
>      > > > >> > TABLE
>      > > > >> > TR: {
>      > > > >> > Silk TD: 'Username:'.
>      > > > >> > Silk TD INPUT: 'name'->'name' };
>      > > > >> > TR: {
>      > > > >> > Silk TD: 'Password'.
>      > > > >> > Silk TD INPUT: { 'name'->'password'. 'type'->'password' }};
>      > > > >> > TR: {
>      > > > >> > Silk TD INPUT: { 'type'->'submit'. 'value'->'Okay' }
>      > > > >>
>      > > > >> This is not correct code. See the medium article for correct
>      > > > >> pieces.
>      > > > >>
>      > > > >> >
>      > > > >> > Of course, it could be written other ways, too, as it is
>      > > > >> > pretty flexible
>      > > > >> > in ways how to insert content into an element. This piece
>      > > > >> > uses `TAG:
>      > > > >> > content` convenient method heavily.
>      > > > >> >
>      > > > >> > (uppercase needed, as DNU is used to generate tags from any
>      > > > >> > uppercase
>      > > > >> > message, so you can insert you custom tags as well)
>      > > > >> >
>      > > > >> > > >
>      > > > >> > > > I just thought it'd be nice to use Smalltalk to
>      > > > >> > programmatically
>      > > > >> > > create
>      > > > >> > > > the HTML. I used Seaside many years ago, so it's what
>      > > > >> I'm
>      > > > >> > > familiar with;
>      > > > >> > > > in Seaside, there was no other way to use HTML (most
>     web
>      > > > >> > > frameworks use
>      > > > >> > > > HTML templates).
>      > > > >> > > >
>      > > > >> > > > In fact, for all future work, I'm inclined to inject
>      > > > >> > raw HTML.
>      > > > >> > > It's much
>      > > > >> > >
>      > > > >> > > IMNSHO, this is unhappy inclination. I very hope if not
>      > > > >> > Web then at
>      > > > >> > > least Silk allows you to use objects, not strings
>      > > > >> > regularly. It has
>      > > > >> > > different approach, maybe having simple methods returning
>      > > > >> > array of
>      > > > >> > > elements / a wrapped DocumentFragment could be seen as
>      > > > >> > flexible enough
>      > > > >> > > (while retaining objects all the way).
>      > > > >> > >
>      > > > >> > > > more flexible than the programmatic approach and is
>      > > > >> > much more
>      > > > >> > > natural
>      > > > >> > > > for Amber (than it is for Pharo). However, I still need
>      > > > >> > to solve the
>      > > > >> > > > issue of
>      > > > >> > > >
>      > > > >> > > > (('#myForm1 *'asJQuery)filter:':input')
>      > > > >> > > >
>      > > > >> > > > crapping out on me when a false value causes a break
>      > > > >> > from the loop.
>      > > > >> > > >
>      > > > >> > > >
>      > > > >> > > > On Thursday, 11 June 2015 01:24:27 UTC-4, Martin Bähr
>      > > > >> > wrote:
>      > > > >> > > >
>      > > > >> > > > Excerpts from Richard Eng's message of 2015-06-11
>      > > > >> > 05:40:09 +0200:
>      > > > >> > > > > Thanks to Herby's (very extensive) proofreading and
>      > > > >> > vetting, I've
>      > > > >> > > > made many
>      > > > >> > > > > substantial changes to the article, esp. the coding
>      > > > >> > examples.
>      > > > >> > > > It's now
>      > > > >> > > > > ready for publishing and I've posted it at Reddit:
>      > > > >> > > > >
>      > > > >> > > > >
>      > > > >> > > >
>      > > > >> > >
>      > > > >> >
>      > > > >>
>      > > >
>      > >
>      >
>     http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/39e5cq/a_gentle_introduction_to_amber/
>     <http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/39e5cq/a_gentle_introduction_to_amber/>
>
>      >
>     <http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/39e5cq/a_gentle_introduction_to_amber/
>     <http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/39e5cq/a_gentle_introduction_to_amber/>>
>
>      >
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>      > > > >> > >
>      > > > >> > > >
>      > > > >> > > >
>      > > > >> > > > the article reads nicely, but i wonder, why the
>      > > > >> > excursion on switch?
>      > > > >> > > > it is not
>      > > > >> > > > specific to amber, and it gives the impression that you
>      > > > >> > feel the
>      > > > >> > > > need to
>      > > > >> > > > apologize for it.
>      > > > >> > > >
>      > > > >> > > > this should be an aside linked to a separate post, if
>      > > > >> > it's mentioned
>      > > > >> > > > at all.
>      > > > >> > > >
>      > > > >> > > > what i would like to know is, if there is a way to
>      > > > >> not use
>      > > > >> > > smalltalk to
>      > > > >> > > > generate html, but just have it as plain raw html. the
>      > > > >> > example you
>      > > > >> > > > give doesn't
>      > > > >> > > > demonstrate that the smalltalk variant is easier to
>      > > > >> > read. on the
>      > > > >> > > > contrary.
>      > > > >> > > >
>      > > > >> > > > i find plain html much nicer to read, and it even looks
>      > > > >> > like
>      > > > >> > > > smalltalk is more
>      > > > >> > > > typing.
>      > > > >> > > >
>      > > > >> > > > also, in day to day work, i very often have to deal
>      > > > >> > with html given
>      > > > >> > > > to me by
>      > > > >> > > > others. i don't write html, our designers do.
>      > > > >> > > >
>      > > > >> > > > having to translate the designers output into smalltalk
>      > > > >> > is just
>      > > > >> > > > busywork. and
>      > > > >> > > > having to update for changes even worse. it's just not
>      > > > >> > practical.
>      > > > >> > > >
>      > > > >> > > > finally though, i really like that you are using a REST
>      > > > >> > api example.
>      > > > >> > > > that's
>      > > > >> > > > right up my alley, and when i find some time i'll try
>      > > > >> > to get this to
>      > > > >> > > > run.
>      > > > >> > > >
>      > > > >> > > > greetings, martin.
>      > > > >> > > >
>      > > > >> > > > --
>      > > > >> > > > eKita - the online platform for your entire academic
>      > > > >> life
>      > > > >> > > > --
>      > > > >> > > > chief engineer eKita.co
>      > > > >> > > > pike programmer pike.lysator.liu.se
>     <http://pike.lysator.liu.se>
>      > <http://pike.lysator.liu.se>
>      > > <http://pike.lysator.liu.se>
>      > > > <http://pike.lysator.liu.se>
>      > > > >> <http://pike.lysator.liu.se>
>      > > > >> > <http://pike.lysator.liu.se> <http://pike.lysator.liu.se>
>      > > > >> > > <http://pike.lysator.liu.se>
>      > > > >> > > > caudium.net <http://caudium.net>
>     <http://caudium.net> <http://caudium.net>
>      > <http://caudium.net>
>      > > <http://caudium.net>
>      > > > <http://caudium.net>
>      > > > >> <http://caudium.net>
>      > > > >> > <http://caudium.net>
>      > > > >> > > societyserver.org <http://societyserver.org>
>     <http://societyserver.org>
>      > <http://societyserver.org>
>      > > <http://societyserver.org>
>      > > > <http://societyserver.org>
>      > > > >> <http://societyserver.org>
>      > > > >> > <http://societyserver.org>
>      > > > >> > > > <http://societyserver.org>
>      > > > >> > > > secretary beijinglug.org <http://beijinglug.org>
>     <http://beijinglug.org>
>      > <http://beijinglug.org>
>      > > <http://beijinglug.org>
>      > > > <http://beijinglug.org>
>      > > > >> <http://beijinglug.org>
>      > > > >> > <http://beijinglug.org>
>      > > > >> > > <http://beijinglug.org>
>      > > > >> > > > mentor fossasia.org <http://fossasia.org>
>     <http://fossasia.org>
>      > <http://fossasia.org>
>      > > <http://fossasia.org>
>      > > > <http://fossasia.org>
>      > > > >> <http://fossasia.org>
>      > > > >> > <http://fossasia.org> <http://fossasia.org>
>      > > > >> > > > foresight developer foresightlinux.org
>     <http://foresightlinux.org>
>      > <http://foresightlinux.org>
>      > > <http://foresightlinux.org>
>      > > > <http://foresightlinux.org>
>      > > > >> <http://foresightlinux.org>
>      > > > >> > <http://foresightlinux.org>
>      > > > >> > > <http://foresightlinux.org> <http://foresightlinux.org>
>      > > > >> > > > realss.com <http://realss.com> <http://realss.com>
>     <http://realss.com>
>      > <http://realss.com>
>      > > <http://realss.com>
>      > > > <http://realss.com>
>      > > > >> <http://realss.com>
>      > > > >> > <http://realss.com>
>      > > > >> > > > unix sysadmin
>      > > > >> > > > Martin Bähr working in china
>      > > > >> > http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>
>      > <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>>
>      > > <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>
>      > <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>>>
>      > > > <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>
>      > <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>>
>      > > <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>
>      > <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>>>>
>      > > > >> <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>
>      > <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>>
>      > > <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>
>      > <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>>>
>      > > > <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>
>      > <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>>
>      > > <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
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>      > > > >> <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
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>     <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>>>>>>
>      > > > >> > > <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
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>      > > > >> <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
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>     <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>>>>>
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>     <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>>>>>>>
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>      > > > >> <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
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>     <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>>>>>
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>     <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>>>>
>      > > > >> <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>
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>     <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>>
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>     <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>>>>>>
>      > > > >> > > <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
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>      > <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>>
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>     <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>
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>     <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>>>>
>      > > > >> <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>
>      > <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>>
>      > > <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
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>     <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>>>
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>     <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>>>>>
>      > > > >> > <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>
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>     <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>>
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>     <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>
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>     <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>>>>
>      > > > >> <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>
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>     <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>>
>      > > <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>
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>     <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>>>
>      > > > <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>
>      > <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>>
>      > > <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>
>      > <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>     <http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/>>>>>>>>
>      > > > >> > > >
>      > > > >> > > > --
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>     <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>
>      > <https://groups.google.com/d/optout
>     <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>>>
>      > > > <https://groups.google.com/d/optout
>     <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>
>      > <https://groups.google.com/d/optout
>     <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>>
>      > > <https://groups.google.com/d/optout
>     <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>
>      > <https://groups.google.com/d/optout
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Re: A Gentle Introduction to Amber

Herby Vojčík
In reply to this post by horrido


Richard Eng wrote:

> Why not? Because I'm still new at this and I'm not at all familiar with
> all the in's and out's of JQuery.
>
> BTW, with Silk I guess there's no way to wire the submit button with an
> Amber method like you do in Web:
>
>
>              html input
>                  type: 'submit';
>                  value: 'Collect Input Field Values';
>                  *onClick: [ self collectValues ]*
>
> Silk INPUT: {'type'->'submit'. 'value'->'Okay'}  "how to call #collectValues ?"
>
> I guess I'll have to find some weird workaround...

Why weird workarounds again? What's wrong with builtin #on:bind:?

Silk is subclass of Domite. Domite has lots of (low-level) API:
#on:bind:, #off:unbind:, #propAt:, #propAt:put:, navigational ones
(#setToStart, #setToEnd, #setToBefore, #setToAfter - those are meant to
be sent on the #copy of the object, as it represents the cursor, it is
designed so it is copied often).

> On Thursday, 25 June 2015 06:45:36 UTC-4, Herby wrote:
>
>
>
>     Richard Eng wrote:
>      > Another question I have is: Since Silk is a way to *not* rely on
>     JQuery,
>      > how would you collect the values in the form without using
>     JQuery? IOW,
>      > I can't use...
>      >
>      > (('#myForm1 *'asJQuery)filter:':input')
>
>     AFAIK ':input', ':checked', ':visible' and others are jQuery-specific
>     and are not actually part of CSS machinery.
>
>     In Silk, you can only do what classical DOM-built CSS allows you to
>     do, so:
>
>     '#myForm' asJQuery allAt: 'input,select,option'
>
>     will get you the array of Silk-wrapped <input>s, <select>s and
>     <option>s
>     that reside under #myForm.
>
>     There is also at: to only get first such element; and you can send at:
>     and allAt: directly to Silk to search the whole document.
>
>     BTW, '#myForm *' asJQuery filter: ':input' scares me. Why not '#myForm'
>     asJQuery children: ':input' or '#myForm' asJQuery find: ':input'?
>
>      > On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 19:09:34 UTC-4, Richard Eng wrote:
>      >
>      > I think I like this style best:
>      >
>      > '#client-main' asSilk
>      > FORM
>      > TABLE in: [ :table |
>      > table TR in: [ :row |
>      > row TD: 'Username:'.
>      > row TD INPUT: 'name'->'name' ].
>      > table TR in: [ :row |
>      > row TD: 'Password:'.
>      > row TD INPUT: {'name'->'password'. 'type'->'password'} ].
>      > table TR TD INPUT: {'type'->'submit'. 'value'->'Okay'} ]
>      >
>      > But I'm puzzled by 'FORM' and 'TABLE'. You don't actually say what
>      > these are shortcuts for, and I can't figure out how to add an
>      > attribute, eg, 'id'->'myForm1'. I've tried various things to no
>     avail.
>      >
>      >
>      > On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 16:00:24 UTC-4, Herby wrote:
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      > Richard Eng wrote:
>      > > You're right. The last example did not break.
>      >
>      > Released 0.1.4 with `Silk TAG:` working.
>      >
>      > > On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 15:25:42 UTC-4, Herby wrote:
>      > >
>      > >
>      > >
>      > > Richard Eng wrote:
>      > > > I notice that the class-side #doesNotUnderstand: is slightly
>      > > different
>      > > > from the instance-side #doesNotUnderstand:, which is why your
>      > > examples
>      > > > break. You're right, when I do 'Silk new TAG:', it works.
>      > >
>      > > I told `Silk newStream TAG:`, `Silk new TAG:` does something
>      > slightly
>      > > different (of course, '#client-div' asSilk is also an
>      > instance, that's
>      > > why there the TAG: form works as well; also the last example
>      > uses
>      > > instances, so AfAICT, it is not breaking (you wrote all of them
>      > > break)).
>      > >
>      > > > On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 14:44:46 UTC-4, Herby wrote:
>      > > >
>      > > >
>      > > >
>      > > > Herby Vojčík wrote:
>      > > > >
>      > > > >
>      > > > > Richard Eng wrote:
>      > > > >> Here's what I've concluded...
>      > > > >>
>      > > > >> With the exception of #FORM:, *none* of the other TAG:'s
>      > work. I
>      > > > have to
>      > > > >> use '<<' with 'Silk TAG'. That's why all of your example
>      > break.
>      > > >
>      > > > I looked at sources; you are mixing "Silk TAG:" with
>      > "aSilkInstance
>      > > > TAG:". It is indeed true that "Silk TAG:" does not work
>      > (from the
>      > > > examples it is clear, though, that it is useful), and on
>      > the other
>      > > > hand,
>      > > > all "aSilkInstance TAG:" work (not just FORM:).
>      > > >
>      > > > Nevertheless, it should be easy to use "Silk newStream TAG:"
>      > > instead of
>      > > > "Silk TAG:" and it should just work.
>      > > >
>      > > > I will probably add direct "Silk TAG:".
>      > > >
>      > > > > I just don't believe that, #FORM: has no specialty at all
>      > and
>      > > > Silk has
>      > > > > unit tests which test lots of scenarios, including making
>      > some
>      > > table
>      > > > > using TAG and TAG: messages.
>      > > > >
>      > > > >> On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 12:29:27 UTC-4, Richard Eng
>      > wrote:
>      > > > >>
>      > > > >> Where you use 'Silk open', I also get:
>      > > > >>
>      > > > >> Silk does not understand #open
>      > > > >
>      > > > > #open must just work, it's normally implemented (in
>      > DOMite, from
>      > > > which
>      > > > > Silk inherits).
>      > > > >
>      > > > > You must have something wrong in your setup.
>      > > > >
>      > > > >> On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 12:22:40 UTC-4, Richard Eng
>      > wrote:
>      > > > >>
>      > > > >> In all of your code examples where you use #TD:, I get:
>      > > > >>
>      > > > >> Silk does not understand #TD:
>      > > > >> *
>      > > > >> *
>      > > > >> (I'm just cut-and-pasting into my application.)
>      > > > >>
>      > > > >> Am I doing something wrong, or is your article incorrect?
>      > > > >>
>      > > > >>
>      > > > >> On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 04:48:54 UTC-4, Herby wrote:
>      > > > >>
>      > > > >>
>      > > > >>
>      > > > >> Richard Eng wrote:
>      > > > >> > Hmmm, something's wrong. Even with 'Silk TD LABEL:', the
>      > > > >> cells in the
>      > > > >> > table are not aligning correctly. This was never a
>      > > > >> problem with the Web
>      > > > >> > package.
>      > > > >> >
>      > > > >> >
>      > > > >> > On Tuesday, 23 June 2015 20:53:23 UTC-4, Richard Eng
>      > wrote:
>      > > > >> >
>      > > > >> > Oh, so simple:
>      > > > >> >
>      > > > >> > Silk TD LABEL: 'Username:'
>      > > > >> >
>      > > > >> >
>      > > > >> > On Tuesday, 23 June 2015 20:51:04 UTC-4, Richard Eng
>      > wrote:
>      > > > >> >
>      > > > >> > Hmmm...
>      > > > >> >
>      > > > >> > Silk does not understand #TD:
>      > > > >> >
>      > > > >> > What's the correct way to add a label?
>      > > > >> >
>      > > > >> >
>      > > > >> > On Thursday, 11 June 2015 11:07:05 UTC-4, Herby wrote:
>      > > > >> >
>      > > > >> >
>      > > > >> >
>      > > > >> > Richard Eng wrote:
>      > > > >> > > I don't disagree with you, but as Martin pointed
>      > out, in
>      > > > >> > a typical web
>      > > > >> > > application project, you are *given* HTML; you are not
>      > > > >> > asked to
>      > > > >> > > write/generate HTML.
>      > > > >> > >
>      > > > >> > > Nevertheless, in the next installment of the Amber
>      > > > >> > tutorial, I *will* be
>      > > > >> > > examining Silk.
>      > > > >> > >
>      > > > >> > >
>      > > > >> > > On Thursday, 11 June 2015 10:50:36 UTC-4, Herby wrote:
>      > > > >> > >
>      > > > >> > >
>      > > > >> > >
>      > > > >> > > Richard Eng wrote:
>      > > > >> > > > It's very easy to insert raw HTML instead of using
>      > > > >> > HTMLCanvas.
>      > > > >> > > For example,
>      > > > >> > > >
>      > > > >> > > > ||
>      > > > >> > > > '#client-main'asJQuery append:
>      > > > >> > > > '<form>
>      > > > >> > > > <table>
>      > > > >> > > > <tr><td>Username:</td><td><input
>      > name="name"></td></tr>
>      > > > >> > > > <tr><td>Password:</td><td><input name="password"
>      > > > >> > > type="password"></td></tr>
>      > > > >> > > > <tr><td><input type="submit" value="Okay"></td></tr>
>      > > > >> > > > </table>
>      > > > >> > > > </form>'
>      > > > >> >
>      > > > >> > Just in case, above thing could probably written this
>      > way in
>      > > > >> > Silk:
>      > > > >> >
>      > > > >> > '#client-main' asSilk
>      > > > >> > FORM
>      > > > >> > TABLE
>      > > > >> > TR: {
>      > > > >> > Silk TD: 'Username:'.
>      > > > >> > Silk TD INPUT: 'name'->'name' };
>      > > > >> > TR: {
>      > > > >> > Silk TD: 'Password'.
>      > > > >> > Silk TD INPUT: { 'name'->'password'.
>      > 'type'->'password' }};
>      > > > >> > TR: {
>      > > > >> > Silk TD INPUT: { 'type'->'submit'. 'value'->'Okay' }
>      > > > >>
>      > > > >> This is not correct code. See the medium article for
>      > correct
>      > > > >> pieces.
>      > > > >>
>      > > > >> >
>      > > > >> > Of course, it could be written other ways, too, as it is
>      > > > >> > pretty flexible
>      > > > >> > in ways how to insert content into an element. This piece
>      > > > >> > uses `TAG:
>      > > > >> > content` convenient method heavily.
>      > > > >> >
>      > > > >> > (uppercase needed, as DNU is used to generate tags
>      > from any
>      > > > >> > uppercase
>      > > > >> > message, so you can insert you custom tags as well)
>      > > > >> >
>      > > > >> > > >
>      > > > >> > > > I just thought it'd be nice to use Smalltalk to
>      > > > >> > programmatically
>      > > > >> > > create
>      > > > >> > > > the HTML. I used Seaside many years ago, so it's what
>      > > > >> I'm
>      > > > >> > > familiar with;
>      > > > >> > > > in Seaside, there was no other way to use HTML
>      > (most web
>      > > > >> > > frameworks use
>      > > > >> > > > HTML templates).
>      > > > >> > > >
>      > > > >> > > > In fact, for all future work, I'm inclined to inject
>      > > > >> > raw HTML.
>      > > > >> > > It's much
>      > > > >> > >
>      > > > >> > > IMNSHO, this is unhappy inclination. I very hope if not
>      > > > >> > Web then at
>      > > > >> > > least Silk allows you to use objects, not strings
>      > > > >> > regularly. It has
>      > > > >> > > different approach, maybe having simple methods
>      > returning
>      > > > >> > array of
>      > > > >> > > elements / a wrapped DocumentFragment could be seen as
>      > > > >> > flexible enough
>      > > > >> > > (while retaining objects all the way).
>      > > > >> > >
>      > > > >> > > > more flexible than the programmatic approach and is
>      > > > >> > much more
>      > > > >> > > natural
>      > > > >> > > > for Amber (than it is for Pharo). However, I still
>      > need
>      > > > >> > to solve the
>      > > > >> > > > issue of
>      > > > >> > > >
>      > > > >> > > > (('#myForm1 *'asJQuery)filter:':input')
>      > > > >> > > >
>      > > > >> > > > crapping out on me when a false value causes a break
>      > > > >> > from the loop.
>      > > > >> > > >
>      > > > >> > > >
>      > > > >> > > > On Thursday, 11 June 2015 01:24:27 UTC-4, Martin Bähr
>      > > > >> > wrote:
>      > > > >> > > >
>      > > > >> > > > Excerpts from Richard Eng's message of 2015-06-11
>      > > > >> > 05:40:09 +0200:
>      > > > >> > > > > Thanks to Herby's (very extensive) proofreading and
>      > > > >> > vetting, I've
>      > > > >> > > > made many
>      > > > >> > > > > substantial changes to the article, esp. the coding
>      > > > >> > examples.
>      > > > >> > > > It's now
>      > > > >> > > > > ready for publishing and I've posted it at Reddit:
>      > > > >> > > > >
>      > > > >> > > > >
>      > > > >> > > >
>      > > > >> > >
>      > > > >> >
>      > > > >>
>      > > >
>      > >
>      >
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Re: A Gentle Introduction to Amber

horrido
Thanks for pointing this out.

I ask for your patience over my 'silly' questions. As a newbie to Amber, I struggle in the absence of complete and accurate documentation. In theory, DOMite is self-documenting with the list of methods, but of course in real life, this is not practical. That's why tutorials are necessary.

I believe tutorials should be written from the perspective of a novice, but all too often, when a veteran programmer writes a tutorial, he overlooks questions that a real novice might have. That's why my tutorials are so valuable–I'm a genuine novice! My Amber tutorial, and my Beego tutorial before that, have been big hits for this very reason. (Currently, my Amber tutorial has 778 views–not too shabby!)

So again, I beg your patience. Thanks.


On Thursday, 25 June 2015 08:45:50 UTC-4, Herby wrote:


Richard Eng wrote:

> Why not? Because I'm still new at this and I'm not at all familiar with
> all the in's and out's of JQuery.
>
> BTW, with Silk I guess there's no way to wire the submit button with an
> Amber method like you do in Web:
>
>
>              html input
>                  type: 'submit';
>                  value: 'Collect Input Field Values';
>                  *onClick: [ self collectValues ]*
>
> Silk INPUT: {'type'->'submit'. 'value'->'Okay'}  "how to call #collectValues ?"
>
> I guess I'll have to find some weird workaround...

Why weird workarounds again? What's wrong with builtin #on:bind:?

Silk is subclass of Domite. Domite has lots of (low-level) API:
#on:bind:, #off:unbind:, #propAt:, #propAt:put:, navigational ones
(#setToStart, #setToEnd, #setToBefore, #setToAfter - those are meant to
be sent on the #copy of the object, as it represents the cursor, it is
designed so it is copied often).

> On Thursday, 25 June 2015 06:45:36 UTC-4, Herby wrote:
>
>
>
>     Richard Eng wrote:
>      > Another question I have is: Since Silk is a way to *not* rely on
>     JQuery,
>      > how would you collect the values in the form without using
>     JQuery? IOW,
>      > I can't use...
>      >
>      > (('#myForm1 *'asJQuery)filter:':input')
>
>     AFAIK ':input', ':checked', ':visible' and others are jQuery-specific
>     and are not actually part of CSS machinery.
>
>     In Silk, you can only do what classical DOM-built CSS allows you to
>     do, so:
>
>     '#myForm' asJQuery allAt: 'input,select,option'
>
>     will get you the array of Silk-wrapped <input>s, <select>s and
>     <option>s
>     that reside under #myForm.
>
>     There is also at: to only get first such element; and you can send at:
>     and allAt: directly to Silk to search the whole document.
>
>     BTW, '#myForm *' asJQuery filter: ':input' scares me. Why not '#myForm'
>     asJQuery children: ':input' or '#myForm' asJQuery find: ':input'?
>
>      > On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 19:09:34 UTC-4, Richard Eng wrote:
>      >
>      > I think I like this style best:
>      >
>      > '#client-main' asSilk
>      > FORM
>      > TABLE in: [ :table |
>      > table TR in: [ :row |
>      > row TD: 'Username:'.
>      > row TD INPUT: 'name'->'name' ].
>      > table TR in: [ :row |
>      > row TD: 'Password:'.
>      > row TD INPUT: {'name'->'password'. 'type'->'password'} ].
>      > table TR TD INPUT: {'type'->'submit'. 'value'->'Okay'} ]
>      >
>      > But I'm puzzled by 'FORM' and 'TABLE'. You don't actually say what
>      > these are shortcuts for, and I can't figure out how to add an
>      > attribute, eg, 'id'->'myForm1'. I've tried various things to no
>     avail.
>      >
>      >
>      > On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 16:00:24 UTC-4, Herby wrote:
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      > Richard Eng wrote:
>      > > You're right. The last example did not break.
>      >
>      > Released 0.1.4 with `Silk TAG:` working.
>      >
>      > > On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 15:25:42 UTC-4, Herby wrote:
>      > >
>      > >
>      > >
>      > > Richard Eng wrote:
>      > > > I notice that the class-side #doesNotUnderstand: is slightly
>      > > different
>      > > > from the instance-side #doesNotUnderstand:, which is why your
>      > > examples
>      > > > break. You're right, when I do 'Silk new TAG:', it works.
>      > >
>      > > I told `Silk newStream TAG:`, `Silk new TAG:` does something
>      > slightly
>      > > different (of course, '#client-div' asSilk is also an
>      > instance, that's
>      > > why there the TAG: form works as well; also the last example
>      > uses
>      > > instances, so AfAICT, it is not breaking (you wrote all of them
>      > > break)).
>      > >
>      > > > On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 14:44:46 UTC-4, Herby wrote:
>      > > >
>      > > >
>      > > >
>      > > > Herby Vojčík wrote:
>      > > > >
>      > > > >
>      > > > > Richard Eng wrote:
>      > > > >> Here's what I've concluded...
>      > > > >>
>      > > > >> With the exception of #FORM:, *none* of the other TAG:'s
>      > work. I
>      > > > have to
>      > > > >> use '<<' with 'Silk TAG'. That's why all of your example
>      > break.
>      > > >
>      > > > I looked at sources; you are mixing "Silk TAG:" with
>      > "aSilkInstance
>      > > > TAG:". It is indeed true that "Silk TAG:" does not work
>      > (from the
>      > > > examples it is clear, though, that it is useful), and on
>      > the other
>      > > > hand,
>      > > > all "aSilkInstance TAG:" work (not just FORM:).
>      > > >
>      > > > Nevertheless, it should be easy to use "Silk newStream TAG:"
>      > > instead of
>      > > > "Silk TAG:" and it should just work.
>      > > >
>      > > > I will probably add direct "Silk TAG:".
>      > > >
>      > > > > I just don't believe that, #FORM: has no specialty at all
>      > and
>      > > > Silk has
>      > > > > unit tests which test lots of scenarios, including making
>      > some
>      > > table
>      > > > > using TAG and TAG: messages.
>      > > > >
>      > > > >> On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 12:29:27 UTC-4, Richard Eng
>      > wrote:
>      > > > >>
>      > > > >> Where you use 'Silk open', I also get:
>      > > > >>
>      > > > >> Silk does not understand #open
>      > > > >
>      > > > > #open must just work, it's normally implemented (in
>      > DOMite, from
>      > > > which
>      > > > > Silk inherits).
>      > > > >
>      > > > > You must have something wrong in your setup.
>      > > > >
>      > > > >> On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 12:22:40 UTC-4, Richard Eng
>      > wrote:
>      > > > >>
>      > > > >> In all of your code examples where you use #TD:, I get:
>      > > > >>
>      > > > >> Silk does not understand #TD:
>      > > > >> *
>      > > > >> *
>      > > > >> (I'm just cut-and-pasting into my application.)
>      > > > >>
>      > > > >> Am I doing something wrong, or is your article incorrect?
>      > > > >>
>      > > > >>
>      > > > >> On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 04:48:54 UTC-4, Herby wrote:
>      > > > >>
>      > > > >>
>      > > > >>
>      > > > >> Richard Eng wrote:
>      > > > >> > Hmmm, something's wrong. Even with 'Silk TD LABEL:', the
>      > > > >> cells in the
>      > > > >> > table are not aligning correctly. This was never a
>      > > > >> problem with the Web
>      > > > >> > package.
>      > > > >> >
>      > > > >> >
>      > > > >> > On Tuesday, 23 June 2015 20:53:23 UTC-4, Richard Eng
>      > wrote:
>      > > > >> >
>      > > > >> > Oh, so simple:
>      > > > >> >
>      > > > >> > Silk TD LABEL: 'Username:'
>      > > > >> >
>      > > > >> >
>      > > > >> > On Tuesday, 23 June 2015 20:51:04 UTC-4, Richard Eng
>      > wrote:
>      > > > >> >
>      > > > >> > Hmmm...
>      > > > >> >
>      > > > >> > Silk does not understand #TD:
>      > > > >> >
>      > > > >> > What's the correct way to add a label?
>      > > > >> >
>      > > > >> >
>      > > > >> > On Thursday, 11 June 2015 11:07:05 UTC-4, Herby wrote:
>      > > > >> >
>      > > > >> >
>      > > > >> >
>      > > > >> > Richard Eng wrote:
>      > > > >> > > I don't disagree with you, but as Martin pointed
>      > out, in
>      > > > >> > a typical web
>      > > > >> > > application project, you are *given* HTML; you are not
>      > > > >> > asked to
>      > > > >> > > write/generate HTML.
>      > > > >> > >
>      > > > >> > > Nevertheless, in the next installment of the Amber
>      > > > >> > tutorial, I *will* be
>      > > > >> > > examining Silk.
>      > > > >> > >
>      > > > >> > >
>      > > > >> > > On Thursday, 11 June 2015 10:50:36 UTC-4, Herby wrote:
>      > > > >> > >
>      > > > >> > >
>      > > > >> > >
>      > > > >> > > Richard Eng wrote:
>      > > > >> > > > It's very easy to insert raw HTML instead of using
>      > > > >> > HTMLCanvas.
>      > > > >> > > For example,
>      > > > >> > > >
>      > > > >> > > > ||
>      > > > >> > > > '#client-main'asJQuery append:
>      > > > >> > > > '<form>
>      > > > >> > > > <table>
>      > > > >> > > > <tr><td>Username:</td><td><input
>      > name="name"></td></tr>
>      > > > >> > > > <tr><td>Password:</td><td><input name="password"
>      > > > >> > > type="password"></td></tr>
>      > > > >> > > > <tr><td><input type="submit" value="Okay"></td></tr>
>      > > > >> > > > </table>
>      > > > >> > > > </form>'
>      > > > >> >
>      > > > >> > Just in case, above thing could probably written this
>      > way in
>      > > > >> > Silk:
>      > > > >> >
>      > > > >> > '#client-main' asSilk
>      > > > >> > FORM
>      > > > >> > TABLE
>      > > > >> > TR: {
>      > > > >> > Silk TD: 'Username:'.
>      > > > >> > Silk TD INPUT: 'name'->'name' };
>      > > > >> > TR: {
>      > > > >> > Silk TD: 'Password'.
>      > > > >> > Silk TD INPUT: { 'name'->'password'.
>      > 'type'->'password' }};
>      > > > >> > TR: {
>      > > > >> > Silk TD INPUT: { 'type'->'submit'. 'value'->'Okay' }
>      > > > >>
>      > > > >> This is not correct code. See the medium article for
>      > correct
>      > > > >> pieces.
>      > > > >>
>      > > > >> >
>      > > > >> > Of course, it could be written other ways, too, as it is
>      > > > >> > pretty flexible
>      > > > >> > in ways how to insert content into an element. This piece
>      > > > >> > uses `TAG:
>      > > > >> > content` convenient method heavily.
>      > > > >> >
>      > > > >> > (uppercase needed, as DNU is used to generate tags
>      > from any
>      > > > >> > uppercase
>      > > > >> > message, so you can insert you custom tags as well)
>      > > > >> >
>      > > > >> > > >
>      > > > >> > > > I just thought it'd be nice to use Smalltalk to
>      > > > >> > programmatically
>      > > > >> > > create
>      > > > >> > > > the HTML. I used Seaside many years ago, so it's what
>      > > > >> I'm
>      > > > >> > > familiar with;
>      > > > >> > > > in Seaside, there was no other way to use HTML
>      > (most web
>      > > > >> > > frameworks use
>      > > > >> > > > HTML templates).
>      > > > >> > > >
>      > > > >> > > > In fact, for all future work, I'm inclined to inject
>      > > > >> > raw HTML.
>      > > > >> > > It's much
>      > > > >> > >
>      > > > >> > > IMNSHO, this is unhappy inclination. I very hope if not
>      > > > >> > Web then at
>      > > > >> > > least Silk allows you to use objects, not strings
>      > > > >> > regularly. It has
>      > > > >> > > different approach, maybe having simple methods
>      > returning
>      > > > >> > array of
>      > > > >> > > elements / a wrapped DocumentFragment could be seen as
>      > > > >> > flexible enough
>      > > > >> > > (while retaining objects all the way).
>      > > > >> > >
>      > > > >> > > > more flexible than the programmatic approach and is
>      > > > >> > much more
>      > > > >> > > natural
>      > > > >> > > > for Amber (than it is for Pharo). However, I still
>      > need
>      > > > >> > to solve the
>      > > > >> > > > issue of
>      > > > >> > > >
>      > > > >> > > > (('#myForm1 *'asJQuery)filter:':input')
>      > > > >> > > >
>      > > > >> > > > crapping out on me when a false value causes a break
>      > > > >> > from the loop.
>      > > > >> > > >
>      > > > >> > > >
>      > > > >> > > > On Thursday, 11 June 2015 01:24:27 UTC-4, Martin Bähr
>      > > > >> > wrote:
>      > > > >> > > >
>      > > > >> > > > Excerpts from Richard Eng's message of 2015-06-11
>      > > > >> > 05:40:09 +0200:
>      > > > >> > > > > Thanks to Herby's (very extensive) proofreading and
>      > > > >> > vetting, I've
>      > > > >> > > > made many
>      > > > >> > > > > substantial changes to the article, esp. the coding
>      > > > >> > examples.
>      > > > >> > > > It's now
>      > > > >> > > > > ready for publishing and I've posted it at Reddit:
>      > > > >> > > > >
>      > > > >> > > > >
>      > > > >> > > >
>      > > > >> > >
>      > > > >> >
>      > > > >>
>      > > >
>      > >
>      >
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Re: A Gentle Introduction to Amber

Herby Vojčík


Richard Eng wrote:
> Thanks for pointing this out.
>
> I ask for your patience over my 'silly' questions. As a newbie to Amber,
> I struggle in the absence of complete and accurate documentation. In
> theory, DOMite is self-documenting with the list of methods, but of
> course in real life, this is not practical. That's why tutorials are
> necessary.

Well, it has class comment which documents, though briefly, the API.

> I believe tutorials should be written *from the perspective of a
> novice*, but all too often, when a veteran programmer writes a tutorial,
> he overlooks questions that a real novice might have. That's why my
> tutorials are so valuable–I'm a genuine novice! My Amber tutorial, and

Sure, Hannes has the same value as well. That's why I am glad that
_these_ are the people who care about documentation, not me.

> my Beego tutorial before that, have been big hits for this very reason.
> (Currently, my Amber tutorial has 778 views–not too shabby!)
>
> So again, I beg your patience. Thanks.
>
>
> On Thursday, 25 June 2015 08:45:50 UTC-4, Herby wrote:
>
>
>
>     Richard Eng wrote:
>      > Why not? Because I'm still new at this and I'm not at all
>     familiar with
>      > all the in's and out's of JQuery.
>      >
>      > BTW, with Silk I guess there's no way to wire the submit button
>     with an
>      > Amber method like you do in Web:
>      >
>      >
>      > html input
>      > type: 'submit';
>      > value: 'Collect Input Field Values';
>      > *onClick: [ self collectValues ]*
>      >
>      > Silk INPUT: {'type'->'submit'. 'value'->'Okay'} "how to call
>     #collectValues ?"
>      >
>      > I guess I'll have to find some weird workaround...
>
>     Why weird workarounds again? What's wrong with builtin #on:bind:?
>
>     Silk is subclass of Domite. Domite has lots of (low-level) API:
>     #on:bind:, #off:unbind:, #propAt:, #propAt:put:, navigational ones
>     (#setToStart, #setToEnd, #setToBefore, #setToAfter - those are meant to
>     be sent on the #copy of the object, as it represents the cursor, it is
>     designed so it is copied often).
>
>      > On Thursday, 25 June 2015 06:45:36 UTC-4, Herby wrote:
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      > Richard Eng wrote:
>      > > Another question I have is: Since Silk is a way to *not* rely on
>      > JQuery,
>      > > how would you collect the values in the form without using
>      > JQuery? IOW,
>      > > I can't use...
>      > >
>      > > (('#myForm1 *'asJQuery)filter:':input')
>      >
>      > AFAIK ':input', ':checked', ':visible' and others are
>     jQuery-specific
>      > and are not actually part of CSS machinery.
>      >
>      > In Silk, you can only do what classical DOM-built CSS allows you to
>      > do, so:
>      >
>      > '#myForm' asJQuery allAt: 'input,select,option'
>      >
>      > will get you the array of Silk-wrapped <input>s, <select>s and
>      > <option>s
>      > that reside under #myForm.
>      >
>      > There is also at: to only get first such element; and you can
>     send at:
>      > and allAt: directly to Silk to search the whole document.
>      >
>      > BTW, '#myForm *' asJQuery filter: ':input' scares me. Why not
>     '#myForm'
>      > asJQuery children: ':input' or '#myForm' asJQuery find: ':input'?
>      >
>      > > On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 19:09:34 UTC-4, Richard Eng wrote:
>      > >
>      > > I think I like this style best:
>      > >
>      > > '#client-main' asSilk
>      > > FORM
>      > > TABLE in: [ :table |
>      > > table TR in: [ :row |
>      > > row TD: 'Username:'.
>      > > row TD INPUT: 'name'->'name' ].
>      > > table TR in: [ :row |
>      > > row TD: 'Password:'.
>      > > row TD INPUT: {'name'->'password'. 'type'->'password'} ].
>      > > table TR TD INPUT: {'type'->'submit'. 'value'->'Okay'} ]
>      > >
>      > > But I'm puzzled by 'FORM' and 'TABLE'. You don't actually say what
>      > > these are shortcuts for, and I can't figure out how to add an
>      > > attribute, eg, 'id'->'myForm1'. I've tried various things to no
>      > avail.
>      > >
>      > >
>      > > On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 16:00:24 UTC-4, Herby wrote:
>      > >
>      > >
>      > >
>      > > Richard Eng wrote:
>      > > > You're right. The last example did not break.
>      > >
>      > > Released 0.1.4 with `Silk TAG:` working.
>      > >
>      > > > On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 15:25:42 UTC-4, Herby wrote:
>      > > >
>      > > >
>      > > >
>      > > > Richard Eng wrote:
>      > > > > I notice that the class-side #doesNotUnderstand: is slightly
>      > > > different
>      > > > > from the instance-side #doesNotUnderstand:, which is why your
>      > > > examples
>      > > > > break. You're right, when I do 'Silk new TAG:', it works.
>      > > >
>      > > > I told `Silk newStream TAG:`, `Silk new TAG:` does something
>      > > slightly
>      > > > different (of course, '#client-div' asSilk is also an
>      > > instance, that's
>      > > > why there the TAG: form works as well; also the last example
>      > > uses
>      > > > instances, so AfAICT, it is not breaking (you wrote all of them
>      > > > break)).
>      > > >
>      > > > > On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 14:44:46 UTC-4, Herby wrote:
>      > > > >
>      > > > >
>      > > > >
>      > > > > Herby Vojčík wrote:
>      > > > > >
>      > > > > >
>      > > > > > Richard Eng wrote:
>      > > > > >> Here's what I've concluded...
>      > > > > >>
>      > > > > >> With the exception of #FORM:, *none* of the other TAG:'s
>      > > work. I
>      > > > > have to
>      > > > > >> use '<<' with 'Silk TAG'. That's why all of your example
>      > > break.
>      > > > >
>      > > > > I looked at sources; you are mixing "Silk TAG:" with
>      > > "aSilkInstance
>      > > > > TAG:". It is indeed true that "Silk TAG:" does not work
>      > > (from the
>      > > > > examples it is clear, though, that it is useful), and on
>      > > the other
>      > > > > hand,
>      > > > > all "aSilkInstance TAG:" work (not just FORM:).
>      > > > >
>      > > > > Nevertheless, it should be easy to use "Silk newStream TAG:"
>      > > > instead of
>      > > > > "Silk TAG:" and it should just work.
>      > > > >
>      > > > > I will probably add direct "Silk TAG:".
>      > > > >
>      > > > > > I just don't believe that, #FORM: has no specialty at all
>      > > and
>      > > > > Silk has
>      > > > > > unit tests which test lots of scenarios, including making
>      > > some
>      > > > table
>      > > > > > using TAG and TAG: messages.
>      > > > > >
>      > > > > >> On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 12:29:27 UTC-4, Richard Eng
>      > > wrote:
>      > > > > >>
>      > > > > >> Where you use 'Silk open', I also get:
>      > > > > >>
>      > > > > >> Silk does not understand #open
>      > > > > >
>      > > > > > #open must just work, it's normally implemented (in
>      > > DOMite, from
>      > > > > which
>      > > > > > Silk inherits).
>      > > > > >
>      > > > > > You must have something wrong in your setup.
>      > > > > >
>      > > > > >> On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 12:22:40 UTC-4, Richard Eng
>      > > wrote:
>      > > > > >>
>      > > > > >> In all of your code examples where you use #TD:, I get:
>      > > > > >>
>      > > > > >> Silk does not understand #TD:
>      > > > > >> *
>      > > > > >> *
>      > > > > >> (I'm just cut-and-pasting into my application.)
>      > > > > >>
>      > > > > >> Am I doing something wrong, or is your article incorrect?
>      > > > > >>
>      > > > > >>
>      > > > > >> On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 04:48:54 UTC-4, Herby wrote:
>      > > > > >>
>      > > > > >>
>      > > > > >>
>      > > > > >> Richard Eng wrote:
>      > > > > >> > Hmmm, something's wrong. Even with 'Silk TD LABEL:', the
>      > > > > >> cells in the
>      > > > > >> > table are not aligning correctly. This was never a
>      > > > > >> problem with the Web
>      > > > > >> > package.
>      > > > > >> >
>      > > > > >> >
>      > > > > >> > On Tuesday, 23 June 2015 20:53:23 UTC-4, Richard Eng
>      > > wrote:
>      > > > > >> >
>      > > > > >> > Oh, so simple:
>      > > > > >> >
>      > > > > >> > Silk TD LABEL: 'Username:'
>      > > > > >> >
>      > > > > >> >
>      > > > > >> > On Tuesday, 23 June 2015 20:51:04 UTC-4, Richard Eng
>      > > wrote:
>      > > > > >> >
>      > > > > >> > Hmmm...
>      > > > > >> >
>      > > > > >> > Silk does not understand #TD:
>      > > > > >> >
>      > > > > >> > What's the correct way to add a label?
>      > > > > >> >
>      > > > > >> >
>      > > > > >> > On Thursday, 11 June 2015 11:07:05 UTC-4, Herby wrote:
>      > > > > >> >
>      > > > > >> >
>      > > > > >> >
>      > > > > >> > Richard Eng wrote:
>      > > > > >> > > I don't disagree with you, but as Martin pointed
>      > > out, in
>      > > > > >> > a typical web
>      > > > > >> > > application project, you are *given* HTML; you are not
>      > > > > >> > asked to
>      > > > > >> > > write/generate HTML.
>      > > > > >> > >
>      > > > > >> > > Nevertheless, in the next installment of the Amber
>      > > > > >> > tutorial, I *will* be
>      > > > > >> > > examining Silk.
>      > > > > >> > >
>      > > > > >> > >
>      > > > > >> > > On Thursday, 11 June 2015 10:50:36 UTC-4, Herby wrote:
>      > > > > >> > >
>      > > > > >> > >
>      > > > > >> > >
>      > > > > >> > > Richard Eng wrote:
>      > > > > >> > > > It's very easy to insert raw HTML instead of using
>      > > > > >> > HTMLCanvas.
>      > > > > >> > > For example,
>      > > > > >> > > >
>      > > > > >> > > > ||
>      > > > > >> > > > '#client-main'asJQuery append:
>      > > > > >> > > > '<form>
>      > > > > >> > > > <table>
>      > > > > >> > > > <tr><td>Username:</td><td><input
>      > > name="name"></td></tr>
>      > > > > >> > > > <tr><td>Password:</td><td><input name="password"
>      > > > > >> > > type="password"></td></tr>
>      > > > > >> > > > <tr><td><input type="submit" value="Okay"></td></tr>
>      > > > > >> > > > </table>
>      > > > > >> > > > </form>'
>      > > > > >> >
>      > > > > >> > Just in case, above thing could probably written this
>      > > way in
>      > > > > >> > Silk:
>      > > > > >> >
>      > > > > >> > '#client-main' asSilk
>      > > > > >> > FORM
>      > > > > >> > TABLE
>      > > > > >> > TR: {
>      > > > > >> > Silk TD: 'Username:'.
>      > > > > >> > Silk TD INPUT: 'name'->'name' };
>      > > > > >> > TR: {
>      > > > > >> > Silk TD: 'Password'.
>      > > > > >> > Silk TD INPUT: { 'name'->'password'.
>      > > 'type'->'password' }};
>      > > > > >> > TR: {
>      > > > > >> > Silk TD INPUT: { 'type'->'submit'. 'value'->'Okay' }
>      > > > > >>
>      > > > > >> This is not correct code. See the medium article for
>      > > correct
>      > > > > >> pieces.
>      > > > > >>
>      > > > > >> >
>      > > > > >> > Of course, it could be written other ways, too, as it is
>      > > > > >> > pretty flexible
>      > > > > >> > in ways how to insert content into an element. This piece
>      > > > > >> > uses `TAG:
>      > > > > >> > content` convenient method heavily.
>      > > > > >> >
>      > > > > >> > (uppercase needed, as DNU is used to generate tags
>      > > from any
>      > > > > >> > uppercase
>      > > > > >> > message, so you can insert you custom tags as well)
>      > > > > >> >
>      > > > > >> > > >
>      > > > > >> > > > I just thought it'd be nice to use Smalltalk to
>      > > > > >> > programmatically
>      > > > > >> > > create
>      > > > > >> > > > the HTML. I used Seaside many years ago, so it's what
>      > > > > >> I'm
>      > > > > >> > > familiar with;
>      > > > > >> > > > in Seaside, there was no other way to use HTML
>      > > (most web
>      > > > > >> > > frameworks use
>      > > > > >> > > > HTML templates).
>      > > > > >> > > >
>      > > > > >> > > > In fact, for all future work, I'm inclined to inject
>      > > > > >> > raw HTML.
>      > > > > >> > > It's much
>      > > > > >> > >
>      > > > > >> > > IMNSHO, this is unhappy inclination. I very hope if not
>      > > > > >> > Web then at
>      > > > > >> > > least Silk allows you to use objects, not strings
>      > > > > >> > regularly. It has
>      > > > > >> > > different approach, maybe having simple methods
>      > > returning
>      > > > > >> > array of
>      > > > > >> > > elements / a wrapped DocumentFragment could be seen as
>      > > > > >> > flexible enough
>      > > > > >> > > (while retaining objects all the way).
>      > > > > >> > >
>      > > > > >> > > > more flexible than the programmatic approach and is
>      > > > > >> > much more
>      > > > > >> > > natural
>      > > > > >> > > > for Amber (than it is for Pharo). However, I still
>      > > need
>      > > > > >> > to solve the
>      > > > > >> > > > issue of
>      > > > > >> > > >
>      > > > > >> > > > (('#myForm1 *'asJQuery)filter:':input')
>      > > > > >> > > >
>      > > > > >> > > > crapping out on me when a false value causes a break
>      > > > > >> > from the loop.
>      > > > > >> > > >
>      > > > > >> > > >
>      > > > > >> > > > On Thursday, 11 June 2015 01:24:27 UTC-4, Martin Bähr
>      > > > > >> > wrote:
>      > > > > >> > > >
>      > > > > >> > > > Excerpts from Richard Eng's message of 2015-06-11
>      > > > > >> > 05:40:09 +0200:
>      > > > > >> > > > > Thanks to Herby's (very extensive) proofreading and
>      > > > > >> > vetting, I've
>      > > > > >> > > > made many
>      > > > > >> > > > > substantial changes to the article, esp. the coding
>      > > > > >> > examples.
>      > > > > >> > > > It's now
>      > > > > >> > > > > ready for publishing and I've posted it at Reddit:
>      > > > > >> > > > >
>      > > > > >> > > > >
>      > > > > >> > > >
>      > > > > >> > >
>      > > > > >> >
>      > > > > >>
>      > > > >
>      > > >
>      > >
>      >
>     http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/39e5cq/a_gentle_introduction_to_amber/
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Re: A Gentle Introduction to Amber

Herby Vojčík
In reply to this post by horrido


Richard Eng wrote:
> Thanks for pointing this out.
>
> I ask for your patience over my 'silly' questions. As a newbie to Amber,

Newbie to Amber, yes; but you said you are not a newbie to Smalltalk
itself; and it is part of Smalltalk to be the explorative programming
environment. So I presume that you can use a Workspace / Inspector to
look around (yes, Amber lacks Method Finder), and look at classes /
methods innards if needed.

If I knew you and newbie to Smalltalk concept as well, I would take it a
bit differently.

> I struggle in the absence of complete and accurate documentation. In
> theory, DOMite is self-documenting with the list of methods, but of
> course in real life, this is not practical. That's why tutorials are
> necessary.

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Re: A Gentle Introduction to Amber

horrido
Full Disclosure:

The first, and last, time I programmed in Smalltalk was over 8 years ago. In 2007, I wrote a Seaside app for a psychiatrist's business that took less than 3 months. I spent 3 more months tweaking the app. In total, I used Smalltalk for 6 months...long enough to appreciate the value of Smalltalk, but not long enough to be an expert in it.

During those 6 months, I used the the browser a good deal, but the inspector and debugger, not so much. Honestly, I didn't do too much exploring of the Smalltalk environment. That may explain why I struggle to understand Smalltalk's underpinnings.

Now that I'm back to using Smalltalk in Amber, I shall endeavour to dig deeper into Smalltalk and finally make good use of Inspector and Debugger.

On the basis of those 6 months with Seaside, I stepped forward to start the advocacy organization Smalltalk Renaissance. Maybe that was presumptuous of me. Maybe a Smalltalk expert should be leading. But from what I can tell, nobody else has the time nor inclination to do what I'm doing.

So, unfortunately, you're stuck with me...  ;-)


On Thursday, 25 June 2015 17:01:35 UTC-4, Herby wrote:


Richard Eng wrote:
> Thanks for pointing this out.
>
> I ask for your patience over my 'silly' questions. As a newbie to Amber,

Newbie to Amber, yes; but you said you are not a newbie to Smalltalk
itself; and it is part of Smalltalk to be the explorative programming
environment. So I presume that you can use a Workspace / Inspector to
look around (yes, Amber lacks Method Finder), and look at classes /
methods innards if needed.

If I knew you and newbie to Smalltalk concept as well, I would take it a
bit differently.

> I struggle in the absence of complete and accurate documentation. In
> theory, DOMite is self-documenting with the list of methods, but of
> course in real life, this is not practical. That's why tutorials are
> necessary.

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Re: A Gentle Introduction to Amber

horrido
Also, at the age of 61, my memory is deteriorating. I've forgotten a good deal of what I learned 8 years ago. Or even 2 years ago!

Damn Alzheimer's...  ;-)


On Thursday, 25 June 2015 19:26:39 UTC-4, Richard Eng wrote:
Full Disclosure:

The first, and last, time I programmed in Smalltalk was over 8 years ago. In 2007, I wrote a Seaside app for a psychiatrist's business that took less than 3 months. I spent 3 more months tweaking the app. In total, I used Smalltalk for 6 months...long enough to appreciate the value of Smalltalk, but not long enough to be an expert in it.

During those 6 months, I used the the browser a good deal, but the inspector and debugger, not so much. Honestly, I didn't do too much exploring of the Smalltalk environment. That may explain why I struggle to understand Smalltalk's underpinnings.

Now that I'm back to using Smalltalk in Amber, I shall endeavour to dig deeper into Smalltalk and finally make good use of Inspector and Debugger.

On the basis of those 6 months with Seaside, I stepped forward to start the advocacy organization Smalltalk Renaissance. Maybe that was presumptuous of me. Maybe a Smalltalk expert should be leading. But from what I can tell, nobody else has the time nor inclination to do what I'm doing.

So, unfortunately, you're stuck with me...  ;-)


On Thursday, 25 June 2015 17:01:35 UTC-4, Herby wrote:


Richard Eng wrote:
> Thanks for pointing this out.
>
> I ask for your patience over my 'silly' questions. As a newbie to Amber,

Newbie to Amber, yes; but you said you are not a newbie to Smalltalk
itself; and it is part of Smalltalk to be the explorative programming
environment. So I presume that you can use a Workspace / Inspector to
look around (yes, Amber lacks Method Finder), and look at classes /
methods innards if needed.

If I knew you and newbie to Smalltalk concept as well, I would take it a
bit differently.

> I struggle in the absence of complete and accurate documentation. In
> theory, DOMite is self-documenting with the list of methods, but of
> course in real life, this is not practical. That's why tutorials are
> necessary.

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