A Mac version of VA Smalltalk

Hi,

I work at IBM, developing and maintaining an internal application developed with VA Smalltalk, and we are facing some complaints from users because they can't replace their thinkpads with macbooks because our application. We are trying to get budget to move to a web based architecture, but in the meantime the Application Owner is also considering moving to a Citrix based solution. Anyway, if some features like Reports and Lotus Domino support will not work on Mac, nor we can use it.

Hi Lou. Great idea but will they ever get funding?  Have a look at this screen shot of my iMac

Hello Lou, Dave,

+1 on the coolness ;-)

Not sure there is no business case, but  VAST would have to include a VERY much improved GUI building toolset in order to be anything close to competitive on Mac. All the other platforms would greatly benefit from such an effort, however.

Building Software for mac means dealign with people who pretty much care about look&feel while Windows has long left the path of anything close to a standard look&feel anyways.

Coming back to the business case: if you ask exsiting users: do you need a Mac version? I guess the answer will be: not if you don't also improve this or that.

To find out whether there is business to make outside of the current user base means fighting an ecosystem that is pretty much closed and mostly consits of FREE tools (Xcode, Swift etc.) with a very faithful crowd. Looking at the dev machines at Smalltalk and other conferences where you meet developers, there is a significant amount of Macs around (maybe not so much at Microsoft events ;-) ). So I am sure nobody really knows if there is a business case for a Mac version of a MACy VAST version.

And, me personally, I'd rather see a stable and much better Linux version first. A VAST version that ships with Scintilla and all the niceties on Linux and can really be used as a dev environment on (Non US)-Linux versions. We do have good experiences with headless VAST Seaside servers on Linux, but we develop on Windows for that reason. We could simply stop buying Windows licences if we could use VAST on Linux ;-)

Joachim





Am Dienstag, 25. Oktober 2016 21:58:54 UTC+2 schrieb Seth Berman:

Hello Lou, Dave,

I think I would characterize the reason we are not doing it as perceived interest from our customer base as opposed to funding.
For example, the 64-bit vm project is larger than doing a Mac version and we are able to carry this multi-year effort out.  The primary issue is that whenever

we ask about interest in Mac on our customer surveys, or receive customer input from different mechanisms...collectively there simply isn't enough interest.

We'll continue to look and see if we detect trends in that direction, and on a personal (albeit irrelevant) note...I think a Mac version of VAST would be cool.

-- Seth

On Monday, October 24, 2016 at 4:30:10 PM UTC-4, Totally Objects wrote:

Hi Lou. Great idea but will they ever get funding?  Have a look at this screen shot of my iMac

<a href="https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-qIu0QN6EA10/WA5uxLFANJI/AAAAAAAAADU/K7waoHg1J6QmyM3iwWCSz7-I4bGjz3RaACLcB/s1600/Screen%2BShot%2B2016-10-24%2Bat%2B21.26.57.png" style="margin-left:1em;margin-right:1em" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-qIu0QN6EA10/WA5uxLFANJI/AAAAAAAAADU/K7waoHg1J6QmyM3iwWCSz7-I4bGjz3RaACLcB/s1600/Screen%2BShot%2B2016-10-24%2Bat%2B21.26.57.png&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-qIu0QN6EA10/WA5uxLFANJI/AAAAAAAAADU/K7waoHg1J6QmyM3iwWCSz7-I4bGjz3RaACLcB/s1600/Screen%2BShot%2B2016-10-24%2Bat%2B21.26.57.png&#39;;return true;">

This is VAST 8.6.2 running on MacOs Sierra. It is actually running in Coherence mode using Parallels. Parallels hides the Windows stuff and just runs the apps looking as though they are native Mac. I have a C drive and all of that but the Mac can access the C Drive and the Windows 10 engine can access all theMac drives. Parallels is not a lot of money so it is a workable suggestion - at least for you if you ever go to a Mac laptop.

David

On Monday, October 24, 2016 at 4:08:54 PM UTC+1, Louis LaBrunda wrote:

Hi,

Might this:

<a href="http://www.zdnet.com/article/apple-to-revive-the-mac-as-ipad-falters-and-ibm-launches-biggest-mac-rollout-ever/?loc=newsletter_large_thumb_related&amp;ftag=TRE17cfd61&amp;bhid=20529364626073633321951543181580" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.zdnet.com%2Farticle%2Fapple-to-revive-the-mac-as-ipad-falters-and-ibm-launches-biggest-mac-rollout-ever%2F%3Floc%3Dnewsletter_large_thumb_related%26ftag%3DTRE17cfd61%26bhid%3D20529364626073633321951543181580\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNFkaQBpYxRwWuyqaqiddjLwueaJYg&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.zdnet.com%2Farticle%2Fapple-to-revive-the-mac-as-ipad-falters-and-ibm-launches-biggest-mac-rollout-ever%2F%3Floc%3Dnewsletter_large_thumb_related%26ftag%3DTRE17cfd61%26bhid%3D20529364626073633321951543181580\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNFkaQBpYxRwWuyqaqiddjLwueaJYg&#39;;return true;">Apple to revive the Mac, as iPad falters and IBM launches biggest Mac rollout ever

be a reason for a Mac version of VA Smalltalk?  Now I'm not pushing for this, I don't have a Mac and don't have any (maybe some) customers that use Macs but I find it interesting.

Lou

David,

I am quite sure running VAST in Parallels on top of Windows does not fit into the highly hyped case of IBM. While you can run VAST in Parallels (or VMWare, as we do) on a Mac, it still requires installing, maintaining, updating and troubleshooting an paying for Windows. So this is just adding to the effort and cost.

I guess what IBM is talking about is mostly native Mac Apps (like OpenOffice, which is native by using Java) and remote desktops for apps that aren't available on mac. This is not an option for small companies, because the infrastructure needs care all around the clock. I doubt they save anything if they need to maintain windows on top of parallels/vmware/virtualbox on top of MacOS on tens of thousands of macs. I think it's more likely they'd pay double or triple the maintenance cost for such an environment.

So, yes, you can use VAST on Windows with the help of Parallels/vmware/virtualbox on Mac. We've been doing it for years because we can develop for Windows, Linux, iOS, Android, macOS on that operating system. To be honest, we only run Windows for VAST on our dev machines. The rest is either Linux or Mac.

But this is just a nice looking workaround. Parallels hides much of the dirty truth from you, but you still run Windows, waste CPU cycles and RAM and have a more complicated environment with multiple layers of security risks and whatnot.

My dream would be a 64-bit Linux PC with a 64-bit VAST running with GTK (or any other current X based library) natively.

So once the 64bits are done, I hope Instantiations will have a second look at Linux. It is and will be the #1 deployment platform for anything web, so it makes lots of sense to also support development on this platform. By this I don't really mean an ancient MOTIF interface and stability problems with UTF-8, ISO-8859-15 etc.

Once that is done, the Mac will probably just be another compile (well, conceptually ;-) )

Joachim



Am Dienstag, 25. Oktober 2016 21:58:54 UTC+2 schrieb Seth Berman:

Hello Lou, Dave,

I think I would characterize the reason we are not doing it as perceived interest from our customer base as opposed to funding.
For example, the 64-bit vm project is larger than doing a Mac version and we are able to carry this multi-year effort out.  The primary issue is that whenever

we ask about interest in Mac on our customer surveys, or receive customer input from different mechanisms...collectively there simply isn't enough interest.

We'll continue to look and see if we detect trends in that direction, and on a personal (albeit irrelevant) note...I think a Mac version of VAST would be cool.

-- Seth

On Monday, October 24, 2016 at 4:30:10 PM UTC-4, Totally Objects wrote:

Hi Lou. Great idea but will they ever get funding?  Have a look at this screen shot of my iMac

<a href="https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-qIu0QN6EA10/WA5uxLFANJI/AAAAAAAAADU/K7waoHg1J6QmyM3iwWCSz7-I4bGjz3RaACLcB/s1600/Screen%2BShot%2B2016-10-24%2Bat%2B21.26.57.png" style="margin-left:1em;margin-right:1em" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-qIu0QN6EA10/WA5uxLFANJI/AAAAAAAAADU/K7waoHg1J6QmyM3iwWCSz7-I4bGjz3RaACLcB/s1600/Screen%2BShot%2B2016-10-24%2Bat%2B21.26.57.png&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-qIu0QN6EA10/WA5uxLFANJI/AAAAAAAAADU/K7waoHg1J6QmyM3iwWCSz7-I4bGjz3RaACLcB/s1600/Screen%2BShot%2B2016-10-24%2Bat%2B21.26.57.png&#39;;return true;">

This is VAST 8.6.2 running on MacOs Sierra. It is actually running in Coherence mode using Parallels. Parallels hides the Windows stuff and just runs the apps looking as though they are native Mac. I have a C drive and all of that but the Mac can access the C Drive and the Windows 10 engine can access all theMac drives. Parallels is not a lot of money so it is a workable suggestion - at least for you if you ever go to a Mac laptop.

David

On Monday, October 24, 2016 at 4:08:54 PM UTC+1, Louis LaBrunda wrote:

Hi,

Might this:

<a href="http://www.zdnet.com/article/apple-to-revive-the-mac-as-ipad-falters-and-ibm-launches-biggest-mac-rollout-ever/?loc=newsletter_large_thumb_related&amp;ftag=TRE17cfd61&amp;bhid=20529364626073633321951543181580" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.zdnet.com%2Farticle%2Fapple-to-revive-the-mac-as-ipad-falters-and-ibm-launches-biggest-mac-rollout-ever%2F%3Floc%3Dnewsletter_large_thumb_related%26ftag%3DTRE17cfd61%26bhid%3D20529364626073633321951543181580\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNFkaQBpYxRwWuyqaqiddjLwueaJYg&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.zdnet.com%2Farticle%2Fapple-to-revive-the-mac-as-ipad-falters-and-ibm-launches-biggest-mac-rollout-ever%2F%3Floc%3Dnewsletter_large_thumb_related%26ftag%3DTRE17cfd61%26bhid%3D20529364626073633321951543181580\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNFkaQBpYxRwWuyqaqiddjLwueaJYg&#39;;return true;">Apple to revive the Mac, as iPad falters and IBM launches biggest Mac rollout ever

be a reason for a Mac version of VA Smalltalk?  Now I'm not pushing for this, I don't have a Mac and don't have any (maybe some) customers that use Macs but I find it interesting.

Lou

While I am ready to believe there is some truth to IBM saving money by using Macs, I doubt the article says much about Apple reviving the Mac. It's just the usual Mac hype murmuring a few days ahead of an Apple event.

Apple will mostly remove or change some plugs, make it thinner and add a few mostly useless gimmicks that are just tossing people deeper into their ecosystem. You'll be able to buy even more unbelievably expenisve adaptors and will have to throw most of your exiting periphery away and replace it to use the latest Mac. So they'll revive the business they make with Macs. For sure ;-)

Not sure if the announcement of a few new Mac Models alone will be a case for a VAST port to Mac.

But the idea is an exciting one: why not bring "the other" Interface Builder back to the Mac? It would have to be much better than Apple's in order to compete, or at least promise real cross-platform GUI Building while still producing great Mac GUIs. Does that sound cool? YES!!! Does it sound feasible? Well, in theory... I wish this dream became true ;-)

Joachim


Oh, I happily use a 2011 iMac at my desk and a MacBook Pro on the road. Both run VAST on Windows on VMWare.

Marten,

The mac is not a typical server machine, so I doubt a headless mac version would be more than an interesting proof of concept for the new base technology of the 64 bit VM...

So yes, it would be a good start to test if a much more expensive full port to the Mac would be feasible. But I doubt it would get Instantiations any business.

Joachim

It was a bit tongue in cheek and to point out to Lou that he could buy a Mac laptop and continue to use VAST on it as he might not be aware of Parallels. Sorry if you took me to mean that this was a full solution. I think that there is an increasing use of Macs out there and even if the gui isn't quite there, it would be a good step. VisualWorks manages it with a non-native gui so why should VAST be left behind

David,

I am using that approach (just vmware instead of Parallels) and it does work well, so there is nothing that keeps you from using VAST on a Mac. That was your message and it is true. It is, however, a costly and complex solution. Not so much for one individual machine, but for a corporate customer it would mean to double operating systems, add all those little support problems like "where is the ~ on my keyboard?" while not saving any money (still need of Windows licences and the virtualization software on top).

So, yes, you can, but in the long run, you probably only should if there are very good reasons. Like needing a platform to develop for all three systems or the like. You also need a much more powerful mac than you'd probably need for a native VAST.

Joachim




Am Mittwoch, 26. Oktober 2016 22:20:18 UTC+2 schrieb Totally Objects:

It was a bit tongue in cheek and to point out to Lou that he could buy a Mac laptop and continue to use VAST on it as he might not be aware of Parallels. Sorry if you took me to mean that this was a full solution. I think that there is an increasing use of Macs out there and even if the gui isn't quite there, it would be a good step. VisualWorks manages it with a non-native gui so why should VAST be left behind

David

On Wednesday, October 26, 2016 at 11:32:20 AM UTC+1, Joachim Tuchel wrote:

David,

I am quite sure running VAST in Parallels on top of Windows does not fit into the highly hyped case of IBM. While you can run VAST in Parallels (or VMWare, as we do) on a Mac, it still requires installing, maintaining, updating and troubleshooting an paying for Windows. So this is just adding to the effort and cost.

I guess what IBM is talking about is mostly native Mac Apps (like OpenOffice, which is native by using Java) and remote desktops for apps that aren't available on mac. This is not an option for small companies, because the infrastructure needs care all around the clock. I doubt they save anything if they need to maintain windows on top of parallels/vmware/virtualbox on top of MacOS on tens of thousands of macs. I think it's more likely they'd pay double or triple the maintenance cost for such an environment.

So, yes, you can use VAST on Windows with the help of Parallels/vmware/virtualbox on Mac. We've been doing it for years because we can develop for Windows, Linux, iOS, Android, macOS on that operating system. To be honest, we only run Windows for VAST on our dev machines. The rest is either Linux or Mac.

But this is just a nice looking workaround. Parallels hides much of the dirty truth from you, but you still run Windows, waste CPU cycles and RAM and have a more complicated environment with multiple layers of security risks and whatnot.

My dream would be a 64-bit Linux PC with a 64-bit VAST running with GTK (or any other current X based library) natively.

So once the 64bits are done, I hope Instantiations will have a second look at Linux. It is and will be the #1 deployment platform for anything web, so it makes lots of sense to also support development on this platform. By this I don't really mean an ancient MOTIF interface and stability problems with UTF-8, ISO-8859-15 etc.

Once that is done, the Mac will probably just be another compile (well, conceptually ;-) )

Joachim



Am Dienstag, 25. Oktober 2016 21:58:54 UTC+2 schrieb Seth Berman:

Hello Lou, Dave,

I think I would characterize the reason we are not doing it as perceived interest from our customer base as opposed to funding.
For example, the 64-bit vm project is larger than doing a Mac version and we are able to carry this multi-year effort out.  The primary issue is that whenever

we ask about interest in Mac on our customer surveys, or receive customer input from different mechanisms...collectively there simply isn't enough interest.

We'll continue to look and see if we detect trends in that direction, and on a personal (albeit irrelevant) note...I think a Mac version of VAST would be cool.

-- Seth

On Monday, October 24, 2016 at 4:30:10 PM UTC-4, Totally Objects wrote:

Hi Lou. Great idea but will they ever get funding?  Have a look at this screen shot of my iMac

<a href="https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-qIu0QN6EA10/WA5uxLFANJI/AAAAAAAAADU/K7waoHg1J6QmyM3iwWCSz7-I4bGjz3RaACLcB/s1600/Screen%2BShot%2B2016-10-24%2Bat%2B21.26.57.png" style="margin-left:1em;margin-right:1em" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-qIu0QN6EA10/WA5uxLFANJI/AAAAAAAAADU/K7waoHg1J6QmyM3iwWCSz7-I4bGjz3RaACLcB/s1600/Screen%2BShot%2B2016-10-24%2Bat%2B21.26.57.png&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-qIu0QN6EA10/WA5uxLFANJI/AAAAAAAAADU/K7waoHg1J6QmyM3iwWCSz7-I4bGjz3RaACLcB/s1600/Screen%2BShot%2B2016-10-24%2Bat%2B21.26.57.png&#39;;return true;">

This is VAST 8.6.2 running on MacOs Sierra. It is actually running in Coherence mode using Parallels. Parallels hides the Windows stuff and just runs the apps looking as though they are native Mac. I have a C drive and all of that but the Mac can access the C Drive and the Windows 10 engine can access all theMac drives. Parallels is not a lot of money so it is a workable suggestion - at least for you if you ever go to a Mac laptop.

David

On Monday, October 24, 2016 at 4:08:54 PM UTC+1, Louis LaBrunda wrote:

Hi,

Might this:

<a href="http://www.zdnet.com/article/apple-to-revive-the-mac-as-ipad-falters-and-ibm-launches-biggest-mac-rollout-ever/?loc=newsletter_large_thumb_related&amp;ftag=TRE17cfd61&amp;bhid=20529364626073633321951543181580" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.zdnet.com%2Farticle%2Fapple-to-revive-the-mac-as-ipad-falters-and-ibm-launches-biggest-mac-rollout-ever%2F%3Floc%3Dnewsletter_large_thumb_related%26ftag%3DTRE17cfd61%26bhid%3D20529364626073633321951543181580\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNFkaQBpYxRwWuyqaqiddjLwueaJYg&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.zdnet.com%2Farticle%2Fapple-to-revive-the-mac-as-ipad-falters-and-ibm-launches-biggest-mac-rollout-ever%2F%3Floc%3Dnewsletter_large_thumb_related%26ftag%3DTRE17cfd61%26bhid%3D20529364626073633321951543181580\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNFkaQBpYxRwWuyqaqiddjLwueaJYg&#39;;return true;">Apple to revive the Mac, as iPad falters and IBM launches biggest Mac rollout ever

be a reason for a Mac version of VA Smalltalk?  Now I'm not pushing for this, I don't have a Mac and don't have any (maybe some) customers that use Macs but I find it interesting.

Lou