A gtk browser for GNU Smalltalk ?

Hi,

I'm new to this list, and new to GNU Smalltalk.
I would lik to know if there is a gtk environment (or maybe simply a gtk
class browser) for GST.

Regards,

Nicolas
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On 10.01.2008 16:36:45, Nicolas Petton wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm new to this list, and new to GNU Smalltalk.
> I would lik to know if there is a gtk environment (or maybe simply a  
> gtk
> class browser) for GST.

        Hi!
Yes. It's blox browser with GTK+ backend. Still, it's very much  
unstable, pre-alpha quality.
You can try it like that:
gst -i
PackageLoader fileInPackage: 'BloxGTK'.
PackageLoader fileInPackage: 'Browser'.
ObjectMemory snapshot.
^D
gst-blox -I ./gst.im


        Folks!
Are there any volunteers for making GTK Smalltalk browser from scratch?  
I mean dropping Blox and using GTK/Glade?Would be nice to make it  
totally in Test-Driven manner.

Best, Ildar
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> Are there any volunteers for making GTK Smalltalk browser from scratch?
> I mean dropping Blox and using GTK/Glade?Would be nice to make it
> totally in Test-Driven manner.

You can port OmniBrowser.  That would be quite cool to have.

Paolo



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Hi,

I did some initial attempt to port OmniBrowser.
Unfortnately, I'm now overloaded with my own
projects, so cannot continue.

I spent some time with Juraj Kubelka to implement
some features in Squeak OB, with implementing a bit
more complicated browsers using OB and now I'm not
convinced that OB is the best way.

Yes, OB has all the nice stuff like meta graphs, UI separation
etc, but when you want something more complicated than
several lists and text pane on the bottom, it's a hell.
My primary smalltalk platform Smalltalk/X and browser there
is extremely usable, exteremely convenient (it's like
using vi and eclipse :-)

So, creating GTK browser from scratch might result in
better (read more usable) browser in shorter time.

To be a little bit consructive: I can contribute, but I
don't have time to start from scratch.

Jan


On Thu, 2008-01-10 at 12:50 +0100, Paolo Bonzini wrote:


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> I spent some time with Juraj Kubelka to implement
> some features in Squeak OB, with implementing a bit
> more complicated browsers using OB and now I'm not
> convinced that OB is the best way.

Can you expand on the features that lack in the OB framework?  After
all, even Eclipse (in the main view) has little more than a tree (which
is the moral equivalent of some nested listboxess) and a text pane.

Paolo


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-----Original Message-----
From: Bonzini on behalf of Jan Vrany
Sent: Thu 1/10/2008 3:00 PM
To: Paolo Bonzini
Subject: Re: A gtk browser for GNU Smalltalk ?
 
Well, I can :-) For instance:

1) you cannot select more than one category, class, protocol, method
   -> moving, deleting severa 15 methods one by one is...not very      
   convenient

2) No tabs. Users likes tabs, or - at least - are used to use tabs
   (from firefox, ctrl-t).

3) No "main menu" no toolbar. I know, everybody use shortcuts.
   But what about begginers? Where may I learn what actions are
   available? Context menus are good for experienced uses, but
   from the usability view it's bad practice, worse when they
   are the only possiblity to access some finctionality.

4) I like to switch between hierarchy/category "in-place"
   very convenient and hard to implement in OB.

5) Sunit integration in style of "SUnit Too" -
   when some class is selected, show additional widgets
   (like run, run profiled, run errors, run failures)

6) Visual profiler integration. I want list in one pane
   and tree widget in another pane. Hard to do. Juraj Kubelka
   and me spent more than 3months to implement such feature
   (still not finished) and we had to patch almost every part of
   OB.

7) Menus are hard to organize - you cannot specify the order of
   menu items (I might be wrong, there were some changes in menu
   stuff recently)


Sure, tree is moral equivalent of nested listboxes. But
imagine smalltalk browser with one signle tree on the top
and code pane on bottom. Conceptually, they are equivalent,
but proper use of each of them has significant impact on
usability.

I don't want to criticize OB at all - is great tool for
prototyping new tools and lot of interesting things has been
done during the developement. But on the other hand,
it is very hard, if possible, to create really convenient
and usable tool.

Jan





On Thu, 2008-01-10 at 14:19 +0100, Paolo Bonzini wrote:




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-----Original Message-----
From: Lukas Renggli [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Fri 1/11/2008 2:18 PM
To: Bonzini Paolo
Subject: Re: [Help-smalltalk] FW: A gtk browser for GNU Smalltalk ?
 
I think I can give some clarifications on these points. In general,
the goal of the initial version of OB is to reproduce the existing
Squeak browsers in a nice and extensible way. The main goal is not to
build different browsers. In the future this will certainly change.

> 1) you cannot select more than one category, class, protocol, method
>    -> moving, deleting severa 15 methods one by one is...not very
>    convenient

The OB extensions of David Röthlisberger allow multi-selection:

http://www.squeaksource.com/Hermion.html

> 4) I like to switch between hierarchy/category "in-place"
>    very convenient and hard to implement in OB.

The OB extensions of Roel Wuyts implement that:

http://www.squeaksource.com/DuoSystemBrowser.html

> 5) Sunit integration in style of "SUnit Too" -
>    when some class is selected, show additional widgets
>    (like run, run profiled, run errors, run failures)

There are many extensions that do exactly that. One of those is
OBTesting by Stefan Reichhart:

http://www.squeaksource.com/OBAddOns.html

> 6) Visual profiler integration. I want list in one pane
>    and tree widget in another pane. Hard to do. Juraj Kubelka
>    and me spent more than 3months to implement such feature
>    (still not finished) and we had to patch almost every part of
>    OB.

Juraj Kubelka did a tree column for the traits integration:

http://www.squeaksource.com/JKExperiments.html

> 7) Menus are hard to organize - you cannot specify the order of
>    menu items (I might be wrong, there were some changes in menu
>    stuff recently)

It is possible to order and group menus easily, as well as to create sub-menus.

Cheers,
Lukas

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> 2) No tabs. Users likes tabs, or - at least - are used to use tabs
>    (from firefox, ctrl-t).
>
> 3) No "main menu" no toolbar. I know, everybody use shortcuts.
>    But what about begginers? Where may I learn what actions are
>    available? Context menus are good for experienced uses, but
>    from the usability view it's bad practice, worse when they
>    are the only possiblity to access some finctionality.

I'm not sure about tabs, which I loved the times I used VisualWorks, but
the main menu can surely be emulated by the backend.  The current GNU
Smalltalk browser simply reuses the context menus as main menus.

Paolo


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