A plea for OSProcess on MS Windows

Previous Topic Next Topic
 
classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
22 messages Options
12
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

A plea for OSProcess on MS Windows

Shaun Johnson
After lurking on the list for several years I finally have a project I
want to use Squeak for. This requires the execution of operating
system commands. I was surprised to find that the OSProcess plugin for
MS Windows is not part of the 4.3 All-in-One download wheras the the
Linus and MacOS plugins are included. I was unable to find any
repository of pre-built plugins, is there any such thing?

I finally overcame this problem by downloading the latest CogVM from
http://www.mirandabanda.org/ which does include the plugin and am now
happily proceeding with my project and with learning Squeak.

However I would like to ask that the next release includes this, in my
view, basic functionality for those of us stuck on MS Windows.

With thanks,

Shaun.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: A plea for OSProcess on MS Windows

Casey Ransberger-2
That seems... well my memory probably fails me. I don't use Windows (for various reasons) but I thought OSProcess worked there. I could be wrong, though.

The man you are probably looking to talk to is almost certainly David T. Lewis, and he's a really nice guy. I'm sure if you hang in there he'll be able to give you some direction if nothing else.

I'm also sure that he'll notice the thread. Might take a small amount of time though. Folks have lives to live and such.


Wish I could help. If you wait a few days, I bet you'll have a real answer.

Casey

On Jul 11, 2012, at 5:23 AM, Shaun Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> After lurking on the list for several years I finally have a project I
> want to use Squeak for. This requires the execution of operating
> system commands. I was surprised to find that the OSProcess plugin for
> MS Windows is not part of the 4.3 All-in-One download wheras the the
> Linus and MacOS plugins are included. I was unable to find any
> repository of pre-built plugins, is there any such thing?
>
> I finally overcame this problem by downloading the latest CogVM from
> http://www.mirandabanda.org/ which does include the plugin and am now
> happily proceeding with my project and with learning Squeak.
>
> However I would like to ask that the next release includes this, in my
> view, basic functionality for those of us stuck on MS Windows.
>
> With thanks,
>
> Shaun.
>


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: A plea for OSProcess on MS Windows

David T. Lewis
In reply to this post by Shaun Johnson
On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 01:23:04PM +0100, Shaun Johnson wrote:

> After lurking on the list for several years I finally have a project I
> want to use Squeak for. This requires the execution of operating
> system commands. I was surprised to find that the OSProcess plugin for
> MS Windows is not part of the 4.3 All-in-One download wheras the the
> Linus and MacOS plugins are included. I was unable to find any
> repository of pre-built plugins, is there any such thing?
>
> I finally overcame this problem by downloading the latest CogVM from
> http://www.mirandabanda.org/ which does include the plugin and am now
> happily proceeding with my project and with learning Squeak.
>
> However I would like to ask that the next release includes this, in my
> view, basic functionality for those of us stuck on MS Windows.

Hi Shaun,

The OSProcess plugin for Windows is rather limited in functionality, and
has not been included in standard Windows VM builds. In the last couple
of years, Eliot Miranda has made some improvements to it, and he now
includes this in his Cog VM builds (as you have discovered). It has been
a while since we have gotten a fresh Windows build for the standard VM
(the one in All-inOne), but whenever that next happens I'll see if I
get the OSProcess plugin included.

Thanks!
Dave


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: A plea for OSProcess on MS Windows

Casey Ransberger-2
I hate it when something like this happens, and I am unable to do anything useful.

I really need to put some of these M$ people (friends of mine, local yokals) to task on their promises of M$-Store Alma-mater pricing on the OS. With that I could at least add *something* to the dialogue by trying it... but alas. I have no money for Windows.

It's just that it's an obvious lame duck which despatately wants money or death, and lately death. VMS ends up eating it when you look at the stock tickers now. Weirdly I still want to feed the poor lame old duck and the people who love it, but...

Sometimes it's actually advisable to give up.

Maybe pick a different OS. Or invent one?

After all: an operating system is a collection of things that don't fit into a language.


Should there be one?

C

On Jul 11, 2012, at 6:04 AM, "David T. Lewis" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 01:23:04PM +0100, Shaun Johnson wrote:
>> After lurking on the list for several years I finally have a project I
>> want to use Squeak for. This requires the execution of operating
>> system commands. I was surprised to find that the OSProcess plugin for
>> MS Windows is not part of the 4.3 All-in-One download wheras the the
>> Linus and MacOS plugins are included. I was unable to find any
>> repository of pre-built plugins, is there any such thing?
>>
>> I finally overcame this problem by downloading the latest CogVM from
>> http://www.mirandabanda.org/ which does include the plugin and am now
>> happily proceeding with my project and with learning Squeak.
>>
>> However I would like to ask that the next release includes this, in my
>> view, basic functionality for those of us stuck on MS Windows.
>
> Hi Shaun,
>
> The OSProcess plugin for Windows is rather limited in functionality, and
> has not been included in standard Windows VM builds. In the last couple
> of years, Eliot Miranda has made some improvements to it, and he now
> includes this in his Cog VM builds (as you have discovered). It has been
> a while since we have gotten a fresh Windows build for the standard VM
> (the one in All-inOne), but whenever that next happens I'll see if I
> get the OSProcess plugin included.
>
> Thanks!
> Dave
>
>

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: A plea for OSProcess on MS Windows

Stefan Marr-3

On 11 Jul 2012, at 15:29, Casey Ransberger wrote:

> After all: an operating system is a collection of things that don't fit into a language.
>
>
> Should there be one?

No, there shouldn't be one: http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/singularity/
Singularity is much more a high-level language [VM] than it is a classical OS.

Ah, but oops, it's from Microsoft...




--
Stefan Marr
Software Languages Lab
Vrije Universiteit Brussel
Pleinlaan 2 / B-1050 Brussels / Belgium
http://soft.vub.ac.be/~smarr
Phone: +32 2 629 2974
Fax:   +32 2 629 3525


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: A plea for OSProcess on MS Windows

Casey Ransberger-2
Below.

On Jul 11, 2012, at 6:46 AM, Stefan Marr <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 11 Jul 2012, at 15:29, Casey Ransberger wrote:
>
>> After all: an operating system is a collection of things that don't fit into a language.
>>
>>
>> Should there be one?
>
> No, there shouldn't be one: http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/singularity/
> Singularity is much more a high-level language [VM] than it is a classical OS.
>
> Ah, but oops, it's from Microsoft...
>
> --
> Stefan Marr
> Software Languages Lab
> Vrije Universiteit Brussel
> Pleinlaan 2 / B-1050 Brussels / Belgium
> http://soft.vub.ac.be/~smarr
> Phone: +32 2 629 2974
> Fax:   +32 2 629 3525

Most of my friends hail from Microsoft now. All of them have quit the company and taken options at Seattle startups.

Singularity is pretty cool except... like most MS research projects, it probably won't ever leave the lab.

Their research arm is (in that modern sort-of way) really great. But they tend to make (at the end of the day) big ass computer tables which people kind of laugh at as useless. The real problem with Microsoft Research, in your present intrepid author's meaningless opinion, is that they *don't ever ship anything that anyone wants or needs.*

And Apple sold out the geeks. Welcome to 1984, ladies and gentlemen!

;)

What's the alternative? Shanty towns both. Linux and BSD. I say: let's get rid of both.

C
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: A plea for OSProcess on MS Windows

Frank Shearar-3
On 11 July 2012 15:27, Casey Ransberger <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Below.
>
> On Jul 11, 2012, at 6:46 AM, Stefan Marr <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>
>> On 11 Jul 2012, at 15:29, Casey Ransberger wrote:
>>
>>> After all: an operating system is a collection of things that don't fit into a language.
>>>
>>>
>>> Should there be one?
>>
>> No, there shouldn't be one: http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/singularity/
>> Singularity is much more a high-level language [VM] than it is a classical OS.
>>
>> Ah, but oops, it's from Microsoft...
>>
>> --
>> Stefan Marr
>> Software Languages Lab
>> Vrije Universiteit Brussel
>> Pleinlaan 2 / B-1050 Brussels / Belgium
>> http://soft.vub.ac.be/~smarr
>> Phone: +32 2 629 2974
>> Fax:   +32 2 629 3525
>
> Most of my friends hail from Microsoft now. All of them have quit the company and taken options at Seattle startups.
>
> Singularity is pretty cool except... like most MS research projects, it probably won't ever leave the lab.
>
> Their research arm is (in that modern sort-of way) really great. But they tend to make (at the end of the day) big ass computer tables which people kind of laugh at as useless. The real problem with Microsoft Research, in your present intrepid author's meaningless opinion, is that they *don't ever ship anything that anyone wants or needs.*

Largely I agree. They do tend to fund interesting languages though: F#
and Haskell are both interesting, practical languages. (No, really.)
Of course, that might not fulfil the "anyone wants" part. Side effect
free programming? Bah!

frank

> And Apple sold out the geeks. Welcome to 1984, ladies and gentlemen!
>
> ;)
>
> What's the alternative? Shanty towns both. Linux and BSD. I say: let's get rid of both.
>
> C

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: A plea for OSProcess on MS Windows

Casey Ransberger-2
Oh good whatever you believe in.

Frank, when I found out that their SDETs were writing test code in C++ around that Bing joke and asked the guy in charge (during the phone screen) what the test devs thought about it, he just flapped.

Guy failed to be abled to articulate in the language we were speaking in, he was so flapped.

I'm going to be very kind to the hiring manager dweeb, and omit his name here. But *the guy didn't know shit from shinola* and wanted me to worship his (absent) education before he would give me an onsite interview.

I said: "Why aren't they using something like F#?"

He didn't know what I was talking about. The hiring manager for the Bing team had *never even heard about F#!!!*

The only people other than hard core external nerds who know what that is are hard core nerds who live in what they call "Dev-Div" at MS, which is where they have people who can actually speak things like grammar, environment, and virtual machine, but these folks can't change anything either. Too much chasing the whims of the Ballmers of the world, as usual.

At least when B.G. was running the company, they had an actual engineering culture. Even if that engineering culture happened around systems programming and low cults.  

It's actually up to us. I really believe that.

C

P.S.

I don't want to waste any more bandwidth on this list because I'm recognizing now that I'm way off-topic; that said, feel free to write directly if that's what you want to do, but let's get this boring crap off of squeak-dev, where miracles happen for small kids in places where they're otherwise treated as commodities.

It's more important to see about improving the future than it is to complain about what is, and so I am remiss.

On Jul 11, 2012, at 7:29 AM, Frank Shearar <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 11 July 2012 15:27, Casey Ransberger <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Below.
>>
>> On Jul 11, 2012, at 6:46 AM, Stefan Marr <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On 11 Jul 2012, at 15:29, Casey Ransberger wrote:
>>>
>>>> After all: an operating system is a collection of things that don't fit into a language.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Should there be one?
>>>
>>> No, there shouldn't be one: http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/singularity/
>>> Singularity is much more a high-level language [VM] than it is a classical OS.
>>>
>>> Ah, but oops, it's from Microsoft...
>>>
>>> --
>>> Stefan Marr
>>> Software Languages Lab
>>> Vrije Universiteit Brussel
>>> Pleinlaan 2 / B-1050 Brussels / Belgium
>>> http://soft.vub.ac.be/~smarr
>>> Phone: +32 2 629 2974
>>> Fax:   +32 2 629 3525
>>
>> Most of my friends hail from Microsoft now. All of them have quit the company and taken options at Seattle startups.
>>
>> Singularity is pretty cool except... like most MS research projects, it probably won't ever leave the lab.
>>
>> Their research arm is (in that modern sort-of way) really great. But they tend to make (at the end of the day) big ass computer tables which people kind of laugh at as useless. The real problem with Microsoft Research, in your present intrepid author's meaningless opinion, is that they *don't ever ship anything that anyone wants or needs.*
>
> Largely I agree. They do tend to fund interesting languages though: F#
> and Haskell are both interesting, practical languages. (No, really.)
> Of course, that might not fulfil the "anyone wants" part. Side effect
> free programming? Bah!
>
> frank
>
>> And Apple sold out the geeks. Welcome to 1984, ladies and gentlemen!
>>
>> ;)
>>
>> What's the alternative? Shanty towns both. Linux and BSD. I say: let's get rid of both.
>>
>> C
>

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: A plea for OSProcess on MS Windows

Shaun Johnson
In reply to this post by David T. Lewis
On 11/07/2012 14:04, David T. Lewis wrote:

>
> The OSProcess plugin for Windows is rather limited in functionality, and
> has not been included in standard Windows VM builds. In the last couple
> of years, Eliot Miranda has made some improvements to it, and he now
> includes this in his Cog VM builds (as you have discovered). It has been
> a while since we have gotten a fresh Windows build for the standard VM
> (the one in All-inOne), but whenever that next happens I'll see if I
> get the OSProcess plugin included.

Many thanks, I look forward to it being included. For the time being I am
happy to use Eliot's Cog VM. The limited functionality doesn't worry me at
the moment - all I want is the ability to run an external program.

Shaun.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: A plea for OSProcess on MS Windows

Andreas.Raab
Shaun Johnson wrote
On 11/07/2012 14:04, David T. Lewis wrote:
Many thanks, I look forward to it being included. For the time being I am
happy to use Eliot's Cog VM. The limited functionality doesn't worry me at
the moment - all I want is the ability to run an external program.
If that's all you need you could also use the FFI, along the lines of:

Win32Shell new shellOpen: '<your command>'.

Cheers,
  - Andreas
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: A plea for OSProcess on MS Windows

Shaun Johnson
On 13/07/2012 08:50, Andreas.Raab wrote:

>
> Shaun Johnson wrote
>>
>> On 11/07/2012 14:04, David T. Lewis wrote:
>> Many thanks, I look forward to it being included. For the time being I am
>> happy to use Eliot's Cog VM. The limited functionality doesn't worry me at
>> the moment - all I want is the ability to run an external program.
>>
>
> If that's all you need you could also use the FFI, along the lines of:
>
> Win32Shell new shellOpen: '<your command>'.

That would be wonderful but Win32Shell doesn't seem to be in my image. Any ideas?

Thanks,

Shaun.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: A plea for OSProcess on MS Windows

Herbert König
Hi Shaun
> That would be wonderful but Win32Shell doesn't seem to be in my image.
> Any ideas?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Shaun.
>

clicking "help", "Extending the system" gets you a workspace which has
the first entry to load FFI. Alas in my (trunk derived) image on Cog VM
loading FFI doesn't work. In Squeak 3.6 times I used what Andreas
described to start Windows programs. As far as I remember one could not
retrieve a return value so I synchronised via writing files.

Cheers

Herbert

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: A plea for OSProcess on MS Windows

Chris Muller-3
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2012-June/164500.html


On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 12:12 PM, Herbert König <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Shaun
>
>> That would be wonderful but Win32Shell doesn't seem to be in my image. Any
>> ideas?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Shaun.
>>
>
> clicking "help", "Extending the system" gets you a workspace which has the
> first entry to load FFI. Alas in my (trunk derived) image on Cog VM loading
> FFI doesn't work. In Squeak 3.6 times I used what Andreas described to start
> Windows programs. As far as I remember one could not retrieve a return value
> so I synchronised via writing files.
>
> Cheers
>
> Herbert
>

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: A plea for OSProcess on MS Windows

Herbert König
Hi Chris,

Am 16.07.2012 00:12, schrieb Chris Muller:
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2012-June/164500.html
>
>
thanks for reminding me that Squeakmap is running again.

It loaded like a charm but for the Shauns question one would need what I
seem to remember were FFI examples. These are not loaded from SM. And
after loading head all FFI entries are gone from the SM GUI so I can't
search the older versions.

Cheers,

Herbert

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: A plea for OSProcess on MS Windows

Shaun Johnson
In reply to this post by Herbert König
On 13/07/2012 18:12, Herbert König wrote:

> Hi Shaun
>> That would be wonderful but Win32Shell doesn't seem to be in my image. Any ideas?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Shaun.
>>
>
> clicking "help", "Extending the system" gets you a workspace which has the first entry to load FFI. Alas in my (trunk derived) image on Cog VM loading FFI doesn't work. In Squeak 3.6 times I used what Andreas described to start Windows programs. As far as I remember one could not retrieve a return value so I synchronised via writing files.
>
> Cheers
>
> Herbert
>
>
Unfortunately that doesn't work for me in a stock 4.3 image (from
the All-in-One download). I get 'Error: WS is multiply defined' from:
   ClassBuilder>>validateClassvars:from:forSuper:

The SqueakDebug.log file is attached.

I can (attempt to ;-) report this on Mantis if that is worthwhile.

Thanks,

Shaun.


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: A plea for OSProcess on MS Windows

Herbert König
Hi Shaun,

you missed the part of the thread where Chris Muller pointed out that
you can load the correct version from SqueakMap (World Menu, open,
SqueakMap Catalog). There you get an FFI that loads but in the reply I
said this vVersion misses the FFI examples which hold the class Andreas
pointed out you'd need.

What to try next is:
Load FFI from SqueakMap and try if you can only load the FFI Example
from the "extending the system" workspace.
>
> I can (attempt to ;-) report this on Mantis if that is worthwhile.
>
No need to do this but being able to open a Mantis report is a useful
thing to learn :-))

Cheers

Herbert

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: A plea for OSProcess on MS Windows

John McKeon
In reply to this post by Shaun Johnson
Shaun,
The windows constants defined in the latest FFI-Win32 package have embedded underscores so you have to go to Tools/Preferences, select Compiler and check : Allow underscores in selectors. After doing that in a fresh 4.3 image it appears to load without incident.
 
HTH
John


 
On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 1:36 PM, Shaun Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 13/07/2012 18:12, Herbert König wrote:
Hi Shaun
That would be wonderful but Win32Shell doesn't seem to be in my image. Any ideas?

Thanks,

Shaun.


clicking "help", "Extending the system" gets you a workspace which has the first entry to load FFI. Alas in my (trunk derived) image on Cog VM loading FFI doesn't work. In Squeak 3.6 times I used what Andreas described to start Windows programs. As far as I remember one could not retrieve a return value so I synchronised via writing files.

Cheers

Herbert


Unfortunately that doesn't work for me in a stock 4.3 image (from
the All-in-One download). I get 'Error: WS is multiply defined' from:
  ClassBuilder>>validateClassvars:from:forSuper:

The SqueakDebug.log file is attached.

I can (attempt to ;-) report this on Mantis if that is worthwhile.

Thanks,

Shaun.





Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: A plea for OSProcess on MS Windows

Shaun Johnson
In reply to this post by Herbert König
Hi Herbert,

> you missed the part of the thread where Chris Muller pointed out that you can load the correct version from SqueakMap (World Menu, open, SqueakMap Catalog). There you get an FFI that loads but in the reply I said this vVersion misses the FFI examples which hold the class Andreas pointed out you'd need.

Not really, I was just getting to that.

> What to try next is:
> Load FFI from SqueakMap and try if you can only load the FFI Example from the "extending the system" workspace.

That clarifies things enormously and, even better, it works.

>>
>> I can (attempt to ;-) report this on Mantis if that is worthwhile.
>>
> No need to do this but being able to open a Mantis report is a useful thing to learn :-))

Maybe not today though :-)

Many thanks,

Shaun.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: A plea for OSProcess on MS Windows

Shaun Johnson
In reply to this post by John McKeon
Hi John,

> The windows constants defined in the latest FFI-Win32 package have
> embedded underscores so you have to go to Tools/Preferences, select
> Compiler and check : Allow underscores in selectors. After doing that in a
> fresh 4.3 image it appears to load without incident.

Thanks, I'll try that tomorrow. For now I am happy with Herbert's
solution.

Shouldn't there be a way for a package to specify such preferences
just for itself?

It seems to me, at the moment, that the tooling/infra-structure around
Squeak is more difficult to learn than the language (including the
standard classes) itself. I will struggle on.

Thanks,

Shaun.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: A plea for OSProcess on MS Windows

John McKeon


On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 3:16 PM, Shaun Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi John,

The windows constants defined in the latest FFI-Win32 package have
embedded underscores so you have to go to Tools/Preferences, select
Compiler and check : Allow underscores in selectors. After doing that in a
fresh 4.3 image it appears to load without incident.

Thanks, I'll try that tomorrow. For now I am happy with Herbert's
solution.

Shouldn't there be a way for a package to specify such preferences
just for itself?
 
 
I thought the same thing but it took me a few minutes to find the "scripts" button in the Monticello browser :)
 
Just for future reference: Select a package in Monticello, click the scripts button and edit the preamble ( or other script as needed).
 
  I add the preamble script to set the preference, tested it in a clean image and uploaded the new version to the INBOX.
 

It seems to me, at the moment, that the tooling/infra-structure around
Squeak is more difficult to learn than the language (including the
standard classes) itself. I will struggle on.

Thanks,

Shaun.




12