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A true community license

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given that all Gemstone clients require licenses i.e. VW , VA and GBJ i.e. there are fees associated with any of these paths, therefore it can be said that there's really no real free solution that can be used to test out ideas , a problem that has plagued Smalltalk since folks decided to venture out of the Xerox Parc labs. 

Note that it is not the model of any new modern databases i.e. the Mongo and Redis's of this new brave world.

So how crazy expensive is a GBJ license anyhow ?

oh, and pls correct me if I have missed something except for telling me to do Seaside dev, since what I would be contemplating would be providing persistence to an app cluster.

thanks

--
Charles 

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Re: A true community license

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Hi Charles,

On Dec 1, 2016, at 7:55 AM, Charles Monteiro via GemStone-Smalltalk <[hidden email]> wrote:

given that all Gemstone clients require licenses i.e. VW , VA and GBJ i.e. there are fees associated with any of these paths, therefore it can be said that there's really no real free solution that can be used to test out ideas , a problem that has plagued Smalltalk since folks decided to venture out of the Xerox Parc labs. 

You are right that Cincom and Instantiations both charge for commercial use of their products (as far as I know). You can use the Community Edition license of GemStone/S 64 Bit with other clients, including Pharo and Dolphin, or even Perl, Python, PHP, Ruby, etc., by using the included GCI interface and the client’s FFI.

Note that it is not the model of any new modern databases i.e. the Mongo and Redis's of this new brave world.

You are right that Mongo and Redis do not map well to Smalltalk objects.

So how crazy expensive is a GBJ license anyhow ?

To learn more about GemStone licenses, see https://gemtalksystems.com/licensing/.

oh, and pls correct me if I have missed something except for telling me to do Seaside dev, since what I would be contemplating would be providing persistence to an app cluster.

What is it about "providing persistence to an app cluster" that makes it incompatible with a web-based UI?

thanks

--
Charles 

Regards,

James


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Re: A true community license

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We are using Jruby in the context of an SOA implementation i.e. a micro service that has persistence needs , there’s no UI involved per se. I’m accustomed to either doing REST or often loading a Java jar into Jruby and using Jruby’s much terser and arguably more ST like syntax to leverage whatever Java comm lib.


So trying to wrap Gemstone/S C libs or using CGI is a level of pain that I would not be used to or feel necessary in the context of what’s generally available today. 


In other words I feel that Gembuilder/J should be available in some sort of open-source , free at least under certain circumstances scenario. Gemstone/S has a lot to offer but and many more may consider it if they could play with it without all that pain. That means folks used to leveraging JVM based languages at least the enterprise devs and therefore that means a Java lib.


I thought I saw the blurb about licensing and it just directed me to talk to my Gemstone/S Sales rep, but I will check your link.


Re: Mongo and Redis, what I mean to say is that if I want to use either of these DB technologies I can very easily do so and from typical modern ways without constraints. I know you all have to eat but I’m sorry this just reminds me of why Smalltalk got relegated back to the island it was born from, the balloon deflated under all the weight that vendors have burdened it with.


Re: my Seaside comment, what I was alluding to was that I am aware one can leverage Gemstone / S from Seaside but that I did not want to use Seaside to front an RPC protocol to my app.


Recap:


You all should make Gembuilder/J libs free and should consider that you will make your money once a project deploys a large enough installation of Gemstone/S , never mind consulting fees from onboarded projects.


Hope all is well


thanks


Charles



-- 
Charles Monteiro


On December 1, 2016 at 12:10:44 PM, James Foster ([hidden email]) wrote:

Hi Charles,

On Dec 1, 2016, at 7:55 AM, Charles Monteiro via GemStone-Smalltalk <[hidden email]> wrote:

given that all Gemstone clients require licenses i.e. VW , VA and GBJ i.e. there are fees associated with any of these paths, therefore it can be said that there's really no real free solution that can be used to test out ideas , a problem that has plagued Smalltalk since folks decided to venture out of the Xerox Parc labs. 

You are right that Cincom and Instantiations both charge for commercial use of their products (as far as I know). You can use the Community Edition license of GemStone/S 64 Bit with other clients, including Pharo and Dolphin, or even Perl, Python, PHP, Ruby, etc., by using the included GCI interface and the client’s FFI.

Note that it is not the model of any new modern databases i.e. the Mongo and Redis's of this new brave world.

You are right that Mongo and Redis do not map well to Smalltalk objects.

So how crazy expensive is a GBJ license anyhow ?

To learn more about GemStone licenses, see https://gemtalksystems.com/licensing/.

oh, and pls correct me if I have missed something except for telling me to do Seaside dev, since what I would be contemplating would be providing persistence to an app cluster.

What is it about "providing persistence to an app cluster" that makes it incompatible with a web-based UI?

thanks

--
Charles 

Regards,

James


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Re: A true community license

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On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 2:25 PM, Charles Monteiro via GemStone-Smalltalk <[hidden email]> wrote:

We are using Jruby in the context of an SOA implementation i.e. a micro service that has persistence needs , there’s no UI involved per se. I’m accustomed to either doing REST or often loading a Java jar into Jruby and using Jruby’s much terser and arguably more ST like syntax to leverage whatever Java comm lib.

 

So trying to wrap Gemstone/S C libs or using CGI is a level of pain that I would not be used to or feel necessary in the context of what’s generally available today. 



But..above you said you are used to do REST. The GemStone free license has NOTHING coupled to Web. I mean, yes, it provides some compatibility packages and some tools (and ported libs) to make it easier to run web frameworks like Seaside. But at the end, its a normal gemstone running a normal extent. 

As far as I know, you are NOT restricted to do web in the free license. So, why you cannot simply use Zinc (or any other web server running in GemStone) and provide a REST api with JSON to your clients?

Cheers,


 

In other words I feel that Gembuilder/J should be available in some sort of open-source , free at least under certain circumstances scenario. Gemstone/S has a lot to offer but and many more may consider it if they could play with it without all that pain. That means folks used to leveraging JVM based languages at least the enterprise devs and therefore that means a Java lib.


I thought I saw the blurb about licensing and it just directed me to talk to my Gemstone/S Sales rep, but I will check your link.


Re: Mongo and Redis, what I mean to say is that if I want to use either of these DB technologies I can very easily do so and from typical modern ways without constraints. I know you all have to eat but I’m sorry this just reminds me of why Smalltalk got relegated back to the island it was born from, the balloon deflated under all the weight that vendors have burdened it with.


Re: my Seaside comment, what I was alluding to was that I am aware one can leverage Gemstone / S from Seaside but that I did not want to use Seaside to front an RPC protocol to my app.


Recap:


You all should make Gembuilder/J libs free and should consider that you will make your money once a project deploys a large enough installation of Gemstone/S , never mind consulting fees from onboarded projects.


Hope all is well


thanks


Charles



-- 
Charles Monteiro


On December 1, 2016 at 12:10:44 PM, James Foster ([hidden email]) wrote:

Hi Charles,

On Dec 1, 2016, at 7:55 AM, Charles Monteiro via GemStone-Smalltalk <[hidden email]> wrote:

given that all Gemstone clients require licenses i.e. VW , VA and GBJ i.e. there are fees associated with any of these paths, therefore it can be said that there's really no real free solution that can be used to test out ideas , a problem that has plagued Smalltalk since folks decided to venture out of the Xerox Parc labs. 

You are right that Cincom and Instantiations both charge for commercial use of their products (as far as I know). You can use the Community Edition license of GemStone/S 64 Bit with other clients, including Pharo and Dolphin, or even Perl, Python, PHP, Ruby, etc., by using the included GCI interface and the client’s FFI.

Note that it is not the model of any new modern databases i.e. the Mongo and Redis's of this new brave world.

You are right that Mongo and Redis do not map well to Smalltalk objects.

So how crazy expensive is a GBJ license anyhow ?

To learn more about GemStone licenses, see https://gemtalksystems.com/licensing/.

oh, and pls correct me if I have missed something except for telling me to do Seaside dev, since what I would be contemplating would be providing persistence to an app cluster.

What is it about "providing persistence to an app cluster" that makes it incompatible with a web-based UI?

thanks

--
Charles 

Regards,

James


_______________________________________________
GemStone-Smalltalk mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.gemtalksystems.com/mailman/listinfo/gemstone-smalltalk




--

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Re: A true community license

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Nice to from you Charles, it has been a long time.

Norm might give a good reply to your post that shows continuing efforts. There always had been limits to what a person in his position could do. This discussion would need attention from higher management than this forum is likely to reach.

Remember Enfin? Enfin was one of the early Smalltalk dialects. As a college student around 1992 I'd called for a license so that I could use this wonderful technology that I'd read about. I was told cheerfully that a student license was only sixty-nine ninety-five. I grabbed my credit card, how could it be so low I asked. ... Oh, $6995 ... for a one user license to a student. They didn't stay in business long. I instead paid two months of rent to learn Digitalk/V. Most students went the $89 Borland C route. Today the model is to pay $20 per month to a company like Adobe for access to all their products, a suite that must continue to improve by hired staff. Tomorrow belongs to the Linux price and development model, a model where users can fork development toward new opportunities.

From my perspective GemTalk has survived so long because technical people actually understood how amazingly superior the development process was and the performance that is possible. It helped that passionate engineers were able to seed the product through non-commercial use licenses. The deep pocket customers carry the company, and those diminish over time from cost saving directives. Maybe Dale's wonderful efforts can root another decade of talent and startups. The GLASS group has life signs. It is interesting to see them face all too familiar development challenges.

I always had hopes that GemTalk could make a transition with their pricing and development model. We've seen them directed to chase trends. We've also seen organic attempts to bridge between models. The GS/S core has carried the company through many times, there is real value there that most of the world has never heard about.

I had stopped using Squeak years ago because it evolved too quickly and often broke core functionality. With highly dynamic systems there is a problem that no release is really useful, and it only works for people involved in development who work toward release. There are solutions, but it needs both leadership and ownership to make the change. I suspect the key is in showing where the squeak model can be made to work, and that comes by looking at Linux.

Paul Baumann


On Dec 1, 2016 11:31 AM, "Charles Monteiro via GemStone-Smalltalk" <[hidden email]> wrote:
given that all Gemstone clients require licenses i.e. VW , VA and GBJ i.e. there are fees associated with any of these paths, therefore it can be said that there's really no real free solution that can be used to test out ideas , a problem that has plagued Smalltalk since folks decided to venture out of the Xerox Parc labs. 

Note that it is not the model of any new modern databases i.e. the Mongo and Redis's of this new brave world.

So how crazy expensive is a GBJ license anyhow ?

oh, and pls correct me if I have missed something except for telling me to do Seaside dev, since what I would be contemplating would be providing persistence to an app cluster.

thanks

--
Charles 

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[hidden email]
http://lists.gemtalksystems.com/mailman/listinfo/gemstone-smalltalk


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Re: A true community license

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Hello,


It may help to have hosted GemStone/S solution. For example as alternative to:

https://aws.amazon.com/rds/

Perhaps something like:

https://aws.amazon.com/ods/

Just thoughts,


      Stan



From: GemStone-Smalltalk <[hidden email]> on behalf of Paul Baumann via GemStone-Smalltalk <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, December 1, 2016 1:48 PM
To: Charles Monteiro
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [GemStone-Smalltalk] A true community license
 

Nice to from you Charles, it has been a long time.

Norm might give a good reply to your post that shows continuing efforts. There always had been limits to what a person in his position could do. This discussion would need attention from higher management than this forum is likely to reach.

Remember Enfin? Enfin was one of the early Smalltalk dialects. As a college student around 1992 I'd called for a license so that I could use this wonderful technology that I'd read about. I was told cheerfully that a student license was only sixty-nine ninety-five. I grabbed my credit card, how could it be so low I asked. ... Oh, $6995 ... for a one user license to a student. They didn't stay in business long. I instead paid two months of rent to learn Digitalk/V. Most students went the $89 Borland C route. Today the model is to pay $20 per month to a company like Adobe for access to all their products, a suite that must continue to improve by hired staff. Tomorrow belongs to the Linux price and development model, a model where users can fork development toward new opportunities.

From my perspective GemTalk has survived so long because technical people actually understood how amazingly superior the development process was and the performance that is possible. It helped that passionate engineers were able to seed the product through non-commercial use licenses. The deep pocket customers carry the company, and those diminish over time from cost saving directives. Maybe Dale's wonderful efforts can root another decade of talent and startups. The GLASS group has life signs. It is interesting to see them face all too familiar development challenges.

I always had hopes that GemTalk could make a transition with their pricing and development model. We've seen them directed to chase trends. We've also seen organic attempts to bridge between models. The GS/S core has carried the company through many times, there is real value there that most of the world has never heard about.

I had stopped using Squeak years ago because it evolved too quickly and often broke core functionality. With highly dynamic systems there is a problem that no release is really useful, and it only works for people involved in development who work toward release. There are solutions, but it needs both leadership and ownership to make the change. I suspect the key is in showing where the squeak model can be made to work, and that comes by looking at Linux.

Paul Baumann


On Dec 1, 2016 11:31 AM, "Charles Monteiro via GemStone-Smalltalk" <[hidden email]> wrote:
given that all Gemstone clients require licenses i.e. VW , VA and GBJ i.e. there are fees associated with any of these paths, therefore it can be said that there's really no real free solution that can be used to test out ideas , a problem that has plagued Smalltalk since folks decided to venture out of the Xerox Parc labs. 

Note that it is not the model of any new modern databases i.e. the Mongo and Redis's of this new brave world.

So how crazy expensive is a GBJ license anyhow ?

oh, and pls correct me if I have missed something except for telling me to do Seaside dev, since what I would be contemplating would be providing persistence to an app cluster.

thanks

--
Charles 

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[hidden email]
http://lists.gemtalksystems.com/mailman/listinfo/gemstone-smalltalk


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Re: A community license for GBJ

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In reply to this post by Gemstone/S mailing list
Hi Charles,

On Dec 1, 2016, at 9:25 AM, Charles Monteiro <[hidden email]> wrote:

We are using Jruby in the context of an SOA implementation i.e. a micro service that has persistence needs , there’s no UI involved per se. I’m accustomed to either doing REST or often loading a Java jar into Jruby and using Jruby’s much terser and arguably more ST like syntax to leverage whatever Java comm lib.

As Mariano suggested, it seems that doing REST from Smalltalk might work.

So trying to wrap Gemstone/S C libs or using CGI is a level of pain that I would not be used to or feel necessary in the context of what’s generally available today. 

In other words I feel that Gembuilder/J should be available in some sort of open-source , free at least under certain circumstances scenario. Gemstone/S has a lot to offer but and many more may consider it if they could play with it without all that pain. That means folks used to leveraging JVM based languages at least the enterprise devs and therefore that means a Java lib.

I’m still not sure who is in the target audience. Is it passionate Smalltalkers? If so, why are they using Java? Do they find better libraries in Java? Or is it people who don’t know Smalltalk? I don’t have a sense that there are a lot of Java programmers who want to use a Smalltalk object database. (I’m not saying that they don’t exist, just that I haven’t heard of/from them.)

I haven’t got much experience with GBJ but understand that it is not as sophisticated as GBS. I have got a lot of experience with GCI and don’t find it to impose much pain for simpler interactions. Based on your experience with GBJ, GBS, and GCI, what is the value of GBJ over GCI? (I’m not saying there isn’t any, just that I want to understand your use case better.)

I thought I saw the blurb about licensing and it just directed me to talk to my Gemstone/S Sales rep, but I will check your link.

Yes, email [hidden email] to discuss licensing.

Re: Mongo and Redis, what I mean to say is that if I want to use either of these DB technologies I can very easily do so and from typical modern ways without constraints. I know you all have to eat but I’m sorry this just reminds me of why Smalltalk got relegated back to the island it was born from, the balloon deflated under all the weight that vendors have burdened it with.

Does the “very easily” part address flattening sophisticated objects into simple documents? Would a GemStone API that looks like Mongo be useful? If so, see https://github.com/dalehenrich/Tugrik

Re: my Seaside comment, what I was alluding to was that I am aware one can leverage Gemstone / S from Seaside but that I did not want to use Seaside to front an RPC protocol to my app.

That’s fine; Seaside certainly isn’t the best solution for everything. As Mariano asked, would a simple REST API be appropriate? Alternatively, you could create your own wire protocol from Java to GS/S using sockets. Much of it comes down to what you expect from the database interface. Are you simply looking to store Java objects in an object database? Or are you planning to do sophisticated domain behavior in Smalltalk?

Recap:

You all should make Gembuilder/J libs free and should consider that you will make your money once a project deploys a large enough installation of Gemstone/S , never mind consulting fees from onboarded projects.

This isn’t enough to make a persuasive business case, but it is an interesting discussion and I appreciate the input.

~ James

Hope all is well

thanks

Charles


-- 
Charles Monteiro


On December 1, 2016 at 12:10:44 PM, James Foster ([hidden email]) wrote:

Hi Charles,

On Dec 1, 2016, at 7:55 AM, Charles Monteiro via GemStone-Smalltalk <[hidden email]> wrote:

given that all Gemstone clients require licenses i.e. VW , VA and GBJ i.e. there are fees associated with any of these paths, therefore it can be said that there's really no real free solution that can be used to test out ideas , a problem that has plagued Smalltalk since folks decided to venture out of the Xerox Parc labs. 

You are right that Cincom and Instantiations both charge for commercial use of their products (as far as I know). You can use the Community Edition license of GemStone/S 64 Bit with other clients, including Pharo and Dolphin, or even Perl, Python, PHP, Ruby, etc., by using the included GCI interface and the client’s FFI.

Note that it is not the model of any new modern databases i.e. the Mongo and Redis's of this new brave world.

You are right that Mongo and Redis do not map well to Smalltalk objects.

So how crazy expensive is a GBJ license anyhow ?

To learn more about GemStone licenses, see https://gemtalksystems.com/licensing/.

oh, and pls correct me if I have missed something except for telling me to do Seaside dev, since what I would be contemplating would be providing persistence to an app cluster.

What is it about "providing persistence to an app cluster" that makes it incompatible with a web-based UI?

thanks

--
Charles 

Regards,

James



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