[ANN] Territorial
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I am happy to announce the release of Territorial, a new Smalltalk library for Geographical Information Retrieval in geopolitical objects. User Manual: http://bit.ly/2c4RrCJ If you like it or have comments, different usage scenarios, improvement ideas, collaboration opportunities, etc. please don't hesitate to contact me. I hope you find it useful. Regards,Hernán |
Re: [ANN] Territorial
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Wow !
> On 06 Sep 2016, at 06:24, Hernán Morales Durand <[hidden email]> wrote: > > > I am happy to announce the release of Territorial, a new Smalltalk library for Geographical Information Retrieval in geopolitical objects. > > Blog post with details: http://80738163270632.blogspot.com/2016/08/territorial.html > > User Manual: http://bit.ly/2c4RrCJ > > If you like it or have comments, different usage scenarios, improvement ideas, collaboration opportunities, etc. please don't hesitate to contact me. I hope you find it useful. > > Regards, > > Hernán > |
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In reply to this post by hernanmd
On 06/09/16 06:24, Hernán Morales Durand wrote:
> > I am happy to announce the release of Territorial, a new Smalltalk > library for Geographical Information Retrieval in geopolitical objects. Nice. Please tell us about your license choice Stephan |
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In reply to this post by hernanmd
On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 6:24 AM, Hernán Morales Durand
<[hidden email]> wrote: > > I am happy to announce the release of Territorial, a new Smalltalk library > for Geographical Information Retrieval in geopolitical objects. Great ! At the moment, I don't have immediate needs of this but this might change in the future. > Blog post with details: > http://80738163270632.blogspot.com/2016/08/territorial.html The link does not work, apparently the correct link is : http://80738163270632.blogspot.fr/2016/09/territorial.html > User Manual: http://bit.ly/2c4RrCJ Nice documentation ! I see you are using github. Try to setup a CI job and maybe put your code also on github. Ask me if you need help. Regards, -- Serge Stinckwich UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC) Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/ |
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In reply to this post by Stephan Eggermont-3
On 9/6/16, Stephan Eggermont <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 06/09/16 06:24, Hernán Morales Durand wrote: >> >> I am happy to announce the release of Territorial, a new Smalltalk >> library for Geographical Information Retrieval in geopolitical objects. > > Nice. Please tell us about your license choice - https://github.com/hernanmd/Territorial - documentation includes as well a license at the end. > Stephan > > > > |
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In reply to this post by Stephan Eggermont-3
Hi Stephan, 2016-09-06 2:52 GMT-03:00 Stephan Eggermont <[hidden email]>: On 06/09/16 06:24, Hernán Morales Durand wrote: License of the library is AGPL v3 (it is in the Notes and disclaimers of the manual) License of the documentation is CC BY-SA 3.0 Cheers, Hernán Stephan |
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In reply to this post by SergeStinckwich
2016-09-06 2:53 GMT-03:00 Serge Stinckwich <[hidden email]>: On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 6:24 AM, Hernán Morales Durand Thanks! I forgot to update, yes the correct link is http://80738163270632. > User Manual: http://bit.ly/2c4RrCJ |
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In reply to this post by hernanmd
Hi Hernan,
I read quickly through the doc. Nice work! I noticed that you used the GTInspector (even with multiple panes at a time). That was a nice surprise :). On this occasion I noticed that you could probably extend the inspector with a couple of dedicated views. For example, on page 35, the AmbiguousCity could present the Cities in a dedicated presentation in the same pane. For example, something like: gtInspectorCitiesIn: composite <gtInspectorPresentationOrder: 40> composite list title: ‘Cities’; display: [ cities ]; when: [ cities notEmpty ] Thanks for the clarification about the license. I did not see it either in the manual but that must have been because I schemed fast through it. A note for others: AGPL is different than MIT (the typical license for Pharo projects) in that it requires a user to open source any software that uses the AGPL package in some form. There is nothing wrong with it, but you should be aware of the implications. Cheers, Doru > On Sep 6, 2016, at 11:40 AM, Hernán Morales Durand <[hidden email]> wrote: > > > Hi Stephan, > > 2016-09-06 2:52 GMT-03:00 Stephan Eggermont <[hidden email]>: > On 06/09/16 06:24, Hernán Morales Durand wrote: > > I am happy to announce the release of Territorial, a new Smalltalk > library for Geographical Information Retrieval in geopolitical objects. > > Nice. Please tell us about your license choice > > > License of the library is AGPL v3 (it is in the Notes and disclaimers of the manual) > License of the documentation is CC BY-SA 3.0 > > Cheers, > > Hernán > > Stephan > > > > -- www.tudorgirba.com www.feenk.com “Live like you mean it." |
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In reply to this post by hernanmd
Hi hernan why do you picked AGPL? We try to protect our community against
license hell. Stef Le 6/9/16 à 11:40, Hernán Morales
Durand a écrit :
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I like it because it fixes the 'ASP (application service provider) loophole' or 'privacy loophole' problem (See Choice Six in the tool) Hernán2016-09-06 16:47 GMT-03:00 stepharo <[hidden email]>:
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Hi Hernán,
I believe Stef was asking about the choice of picking a viral license vs the permissive MIT one that we use in code that gets into Pharo (and several other larger related projects). Cheers, Doru > On Sep 6, 2016, at 10:28 PM, Hernán Morales Durand <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Hi Stef, > > I used the License Differentiator tool at http://oss-watch.ac.uk/apps/licdiff/ > > I like it because it fixes the 'ASP (application service provider) loophole' or 'privacy loophole' problem (See Choice Six in the tool) > > Hernán > > > 2016-09-06 16:47 GMT-03:00 stepharo <[hidden email]>: > Hi hernan > > why do you picked AGPL? We try to protect our community against license hell. > Stef > Le 6/9/16 à 11:40, Hernán Morales Durand a écrit : >> >> Hi Stephan, >> >> 2016-09-06 2:52 GMT-03:00 Stephan Eggermont <[hidden email]>: >> On 06/09/16 06:24, Hernán Morales Durand wrote: >> >> I am happy to announce the release of Territorial, a new Smalltalk >> library for Geographical Information Retrieval in geopolitical objects. >> >> Nice. Please tell us about your license choice >> >> >> License of the library is AGPL v3 (it is in the Notes and disclaimers of the manual) >> License of the documentation is CC BY-SA 3.0 >> >> Cheers, >> >> Hernán >> >> Stephan >> >> >> >> > > -- www.tudorgirba.com www.feenk.com "If you can't say why something is relevant, it probably isn't." |
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In reply to this post by Tudor Girba-2
Cool, now I see it. I added a package called GT-TerritorialExtensions where I will experiment with different extensions.2016-09-06 10:24 GMT-03:00 Tudor Girba <[hidden email]>: Hi Hernan, |
Inspector on a TerritorialAmbiguousCity ((null)) .png (76K) |
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In reply to this post by Tudor Girba-2
I thought for a while about the license. Fixing the ASP loophole means trying to escape from companies using a trick to avoid returning changes to the code back to the community[1]. I agree with such position. GNU AGPL is free, copyleft, approved by OSI, FSF, and used by successful projects : MongoDB, SugarCRM, OTRS, etc. If anyone want to discuss collaboration or re-licensing, for example to monetize library services, feel free to contact me privately. 2016-09-06 18:03 GMT-03:00 Tudor Girba <[hidden email]>: Hi Hernán, |
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In Tiki, there has been such discussions as well. But yeah, MIT license is the best thing :-) Phil On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 12:25 AM, Hernán Morales Durand <[hidden email]> wrote:
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In reply to this post by hernanmd
Exactly!
Now try this: - While inspecting, go the Meta tab. - Select a method, and start writing the method that extends the inspector, like the method I gave you. - Save and the inspector is updated. This experience is still clumsy, but the idea here is that you can extend the inspector during the inspection process. Cheers, Doru > On Sep 6, 2016, at 11:48 PM, Hernán Morales Durand <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Cool, now I see it. > I added a package called GT-TerritorialExtensions where I will experiment with different extensions. > Thank you. > > Hernán > > > 2016-09-06 10:24 GMT-03:00 Tudor Girba <[hidden email]>: > Hi Hernan, > > I read quickly through the doc. Nice work! I noticed that you used the GTInspector (even with multiple panes at a time). That was a nice surprise :). On this occasion I noticed that you could probably extend the inspector with a couple of dedicated views. For example, on page 35, the AmbiguousCity could present the Cities in a dedicated presentation in the same pane. For example, something like: > > gtInspectorCitiesIn: composite > <gtInspectorPresentationOrder: 40> > composite list > title: ‘Cities’; > display: [ cities ]; > when: [ cities notEmpty ] > > > Thanks for the clarification about the license. I did not see it either in the manual but that must have been because I schemed fast through it. > > A note for others: AGPL is different than MIT (the typical license for Pharo projects) in that it requires a user to open source any software that uses the AGPL package in some form. There is nothing wrong with it, but you should be aware of the implications. > > Cheers, > Doru > > > > > > On Sep 6, 2016, at 11:40 AM, Hernán Morales Durand <[hidden email]> wrote: > > > > > > Hi Stephan, > > > > 2016-09-06 2:52 GMT-03:00 Stephan Eggermont <[hidden email]>: > > On 06/09/16 06:24, Hernán Morales Durand wrote: > > > > I am happy to announce the release of Territorial, a new Smalltalk > > library for Geographical Information Retrieval in geopolitical objects. > > > > Nice. Please tell us about your license choice > > > > > > License of the library is AGPL v3 (it is in the Notes and disclaimers of the manual) > > License of the documentation is CC BY-SA 3.0 > > > > Cheers, > > > > Hernán > > > > Stephan > > > > > > > > > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > www.feenk.com > > “Live like you mean it." > > > > <Inspector on a TerritorialAmbiguousCity ((null)) .png> -- www.tudorgirba.com www.feenk.com "Reasonable is what we are accustomed with." |
Re: [ANN] Territorial
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In reply to this post by philippeback
Hi, Nice to see more diversity on license choice and projects in this
community. We have the permissive MIT license by default in almost
all Pharo and related project, but seeing GPL and AGPL in projects
like Spec and now Territorial increase the sense of choice and
engagement. In my case as a freelancer, having such licenses as base for the
code of my works has helped me against big institutions that have
aggressive practices regarding "Intelectual Property" and want
everything for them all the time. Even in this community we have
seen some interesting work that can not be contributed back to the
community until the community makes something open by default
(something related Java support comes to mind). Having a license
that enforce reciprocity by default (GPL, AGPL) instead of "do
what you want" ones (MIT, BSD) helps to keep the commons protected
against predatory enclosure, even if you're a small freelancer and
the ones really interested in such enclosure can still contact the
author and pay the extra price that comes with not reciprocity to
the wider community. Thanks Hernán, Offray On 07/09/16 06:48, [hidden email]
wrote:
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In reply to this post by hernanmd
I'm sorry to say it but you will just end up feeling alone. I wish that someone will ask you to have a non GPL license but I have serious doubts that it will happen. If it does not happen remember that it is not the fault of the communaute. Now if you are looking for extra paid jobs to do let us know. We won the battle of the license after years with the SqueakL and
can tell you that GPL is a BIG sign for me to say: the software
does not exist. Stef
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In reply to this post by Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas-2
Le 7/9/16 à 08:53, Offray Vladimir Luna
Cárdenas a écrit :
No sorry I cannot let you say such stupid statement. Spec is not GPL. And GPL is really dangerous for image based system. It is a plague. We do not want to force nice people (the one that could follow a license) to have to decide to use another language just because they do not want to give their work for free. Open source Second you do not know what the mess it can be. You do not know the story behind. And all Moose is BSD and Pharo ecosystem is MIT. So you can run away with them and get rich. Now none of them force people to open source what they are doing No it does not protect anything. It binds nice people to act nicely but does not do anything against assholes. So this is a lose / lose situation. You dream. Such license will not protect anyone. There are millions companies out there using GPL code and not opening their work. Any code in GPL will not be considered for anything in our community.
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Re: [ANN] Territorial
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Hi,
On 07/09/16 09:26, stepharo wrote: > > > > Le 7/9/16 à 08:53, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas a écrit : >> >> Hi, >> >> Nice to see more diversity on license choice and projects in this >> community. We have the permissive MIT license by default in almost >> all Pharo and related project, but seeing GPL and AGPL in projects >> like Spec and now Territorial increase the sense of choice and >> engagement. >> > No sorry I cannot let you say such stupid statement. > Spec is not GPL. Is not me who is doing the statement, is Benjamin Van Ryseghem, which was pretty involved in its development, since 2014: http://spec.st/license/gpl/mit/2014/08/15/Spec_change_license.html > And GPL is really dangerous for image based system. It is a plague. > > We do not want to force nice people (the one that could follow a > license) to have to decide to use another language > just because they do not want to give their work for free. > Open source > > Second you do not know what the mess it can be. > Yes, I don't know, but the Spec case shows that dual licensing is possible, so is not a binary decision. >> In my case as a freelancer, having such licenses as base for the code >> of my works has helped me against big institutions that have >> aggressive practices regarding "Intelectual Property" and want >> everything for them all the time. Even in this community we have seen >> some interesting work that can not be contributed back to the >> community until the community makes something open by default >> (something related Java support comes to mind). >> > You do not know the story behind. And all Moose is BSD and Pharo > ecosystem is MIT. So you can run away with them and get rich. > Now none of them force people to open source what they are doing Or you can do the work twice, one close source and with legal bindings for not releasing anything and the second time open source in a community fashion. > >> Having a license that enforce reciprocity by default (GPL, AGPL) >> instead of "do what you want" ones (MIT, BSD) helps to keep the >> commons protected against predatory enclosure, >> > No it does not protect anything. It binds nice people to act nicely > but does not do anything against assholes. So this is a lose / lose > situation. > Well, in my context it has protected my against big institutions to close my work. Same for CC-By-SA (which enforces reciprocity and is behind most of the Pharo books). Licensing is a complex issue, it doesn't work the same in all the contexts and products. I don't know the specificity for image base development, but dual license is applicable here, as the Spec case shows. >> even if you're a small freelancer and the ones really interested in >> such enclosure can still contact the author and pay the extra price >> that comes with not reciprocity to the wider community. >> > You dream. Such license will not protect anyone. > There are millions companies out there using GPL code and not opening > their work. Not anyone. See Cisco case [1]. So maybe there are millions companies misbehaving about the license implications, but there are also companies with millions behind that are in (forced?) compliance because the GPL protection is working. This has implications in projects like guifi.net, which is using Cisco GPLed routers to build one of the biggest p2p WiFi networks in the world (35,464 nodes covering 58,383 kilometers) [1a]. [1] http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2009/05/cisco-settles-fsf-gpl-lawsuit-appoints-compliance-officer/ [1a] http://guifi.net/ > Any code in GPL will not be considered for anything in our community. > Except for Spec and its dual license model. My call is to consider differences. We should not have "The Pharo Way" (TM) or "No way!"... suddenly Markus talk about feedback loops comes to mind, particularly the slide on page 53, regarding "An open source smalltalk ignoring all community contributions"[2]. This is far for being the case in this community and we can keep that scenario at safe distance, if we show options. So, dual license is an option, git is an option, markdown is an option. Pharo as a place with options is one where Pharo can fulfill its vision for more people. Let's make these options visible and figure out the way the work better for a wider community. [2] http://marcusdenker.de/talks/16ESUG/FeedbackLoopsAnnotated.pdf Cheers, Offray |
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Hi,
A note about Spec: What you are seeing in the announcement from August 2014, on the spec.st site is an announcement about a fork of Spec. The Spec from Pharo has always been MIT. Even the spec.st related repository on GitHub is now under MIT. See here: https://github.com/spec-framework/spec People are free to choose what they want with their projects, but in Pharo we will only consider code that is MIT. Please do not use the Spec as an example for dual licensing because it does not fit :). See above. Cheers, Doru > On Sep 7, 2016, at 10:07 AM, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Hi, > > > On 07/09/16 09:26, stepharo wrote: >> >> >> >> Le 7/9/16 à 08:53, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas a écrit : >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> Nice to see more diversity on license choice and projects in this community. We have the permissive MIT license by default in almost all Pharo and related project, but seeing GPL and AGPL in projects like Spec and now Territorial increase the sense of choice and engagement. >>> >> No sorry I cannot let you say such stupid statement. >> Spec is not GPL. > > Is not me who is doing the statement, is Benjamin Van Ryseghem, which was pretty involved in its development, since 2014: > > http://spec.st/license/gpl/mit/2014/08/15/Spec_change_license.html >> And GPL is really dangerous for image based system. It is a plague. >> >> We do not want to force nice people (the one that could follow a license) to have to decide to use another language >> just because they do not want to give their work for free. >> Open source >> >> Second you do not know what the mess it can be. >> > > Yes, I don't know, but the Spec case shows that dual licensing is possible, so is not a binary decision. >>> In my case as a freelancer, having such licenses as base for the code of my works has helped me against big institutions that have aggressive practices regarding "Intelectual Property" and want everything for them all the time. Even in this community we have seen some interesting work that can not be contributed back to the community until the community makes something open by default (something related Java support comes to mind). >>> >> You do not know the story behind. And all Moose is BSD and Pharo ecosystem is MIT. So you can run away with them and get rich. >> Now none of them force people to open source what they are doing > > Or you can do the work twice, one close source and with legal bindings for not releasing anything and the second time open source in a community fashion. > >> >>> Having a license that enforce reciprocity by default (GPL, AGPL) instead of "do what you want" ones (MIT, BSD) helps to keep the commons protected against predatory enclosure, >>> >> No it does not protect anything. It binds nice people to act nicely but does not do anything against assholes. So this is a lose / lose situation. >> > > Well, in my context it has protected my against big institutions to close my work. Same for CC-By-SA (which enforces reciprocity and is behind most of the Pharo books). Licensing is a complex issue, it doesn't work the same in all the contexts and products. I don't know the specificity for image base development, but dual license is applicable here, as the Spec case shows. > >>> even if you're a small freelancer and the ones really interested in such enclosure can still contact the author and pay the extra price that comes with not reciprocity to the wider community. >>> >> You dream. Such license will not protect anyone. >> There are millions companies out there using GPL code and not opening their work. > > Not anyone. See Cisco case [1]. So maybe there are millions companies misbehaving about the license implications, but there are also companies with millions behind that are in (forced?) compliance because the GPL protection is working. This has implications in projects like guifi.net, which is using Cisco GPLed routers to build one of the biggest p2p WiFi networks in the world (35,464 nodes covering 58,383 kilometers) [1a]. > > [1] http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2009/05/cisco-settles-fsf-gpl-lawsuit-appoints-compliance-officer/ > [1a] http://guifi.net/ > >> Any code in GPL will not be considered for anything in our community. >> > > Except for Spec and its dual license model. > > My call is to consider differences. We should not have "The Pharo Way" (TM) or "No way!"... suddenly Markus talk about feedback loops comes to mind, particularly the slide on page 53, regarding "An open source smalltalk ignoring all community contributions"[2]. This is far for being the case in this community and we can keep that scenario at safe distance, if we show options. So, dual license is an option, git is an option, markdown is an option. Pharo as a place with options is one where Pharo can fulfill its vision for more people. Let's make these options visible and figure out the way the work better for a wider community. > > [2] http://marcusdenker.de/talks/16ESUG/FeedbackLoopsAnnotated.pdf > > Cheers, > > Offray > -- www.tudorgirba.com www.feenk.com "Every successful trip needs a suitable vehicle." |
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