Smalltalk › Pharo › Pharo Smalltalk Users

[ANN] What are good reasons to use Smalltalk?

_‹ Previous Topic Next Topic _›

Classic

List

Threaded

19 messages Options

horrido

[ANN] What are good reasons to use Smalltalk?

https://smalltalk.tech.blog/2020/05/13/what-are-good-reasons-to-use-smalltalk/

Please participate in the poll.

Richard Sargent

Re: [ANN] What are good reasons to use Smalltalk?

Administrator

You missed the fact that it makes it easier to communicate with the user community, since it's a "near-English" grammar, and you can easily use a common terminology.

On Wed, May 13, 2020, 12:43 Richard Kenneth Eng <[hidden email]> wrote:

https://smalltalk.tech.blog/2020/05/13/what-are-good-reasons-to-use-smalltalk/

Please participate in the poll.

Richard O'Keefe

Re: [ANN] What are good reasons to use Smalltalk?

In reply to this post by horrido

This is an ambiguous question.  There are at least

- Smalltalk the language

- Smalltalk the libraries

- Smalltalk the IDE

Now my own Smalltalk system does not have an IDE,

it does not support run-time modifications to the

system, and it does not (yet) have graphics.  But

I still enjoy using it and find it worth using.

The poll includes only one option that is close to

my reasons for using Smalltalk.

It's ambiguous another way.  Different Smalltalk

systems have different IDEs and different libraries.

The VisualAge IDE is different in a number of ways

from Squeak & Pharo.  So is Dolphin, but in a *good*

way.  Dolphin is easily the *prettiest* GUI/IDE around.

The libraries are different too.  The ANSI Smalltalk

standard has been around a long time, and I *still*

cannot open a file in a portable way.  So when you

ask about "Smalltalk", I have to ask "which?"

VisualAge was designed to fit into the IBM commercial

programming environment, and it does so admirably.

On Thu, 14 May 2020 at 07:43, Richard Kenneth Eng <[hidden email]> wrote:

https://smalltalk.tech.blog/2020/05/13/what-are-good-reasons-to-use-smalltalk/

Please participate in the poll.

horrido

Re: [ANN] What are good reasons to use Smalltalk?

In reply to this post by Richard Sargent

You are quite right. How did I manage to miss that?!!

Richard Sargent wrote
> You missed the fact that it makes it easier to communicate with the user
> community, since it's a "near-English" grammar, and you can easily use a
> common terminology.
>
>
> On Wed, May 13, 2020, 12:43 Richard Kenneth Eng <

> horrido.hobbies@

> >
> wrote:
>
>>
>> https://smalltalk.tech.blog/2020/05/13/what-are-good-reasons-to-use-smalltalk/
>>
>>
>> Please participate in the poll.
>>

--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Vitor Medina Cruz

Re: [ANN] What are good reasons to use Smalltalk?

You should make something similar but inverted, like:

Why do you think Smalltalk should not be used? --or

What are the problems you have that prevents you of using Smalltalk?

I have seen many such posts of Smalltalk wonders, and while I agree with most of them, it seems that they aren't enough to increase usage and interest in it, and I am aware of some critics that are made too. Such post might bring lots of feedback, some useful other don't, and might shed some light on what is keeping people away from Smalltalk. Luckily, a list of those most important factors could be build and prioritized. For example, a first questionnaire could be more open, then a list of major complaints could be processed into a pool asking which one of those people think are the wrost.

What do you think?

Regards,

Vitor

On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 12:56 PM horrido <[hidden email]> wrote:

You are quite right. How did I manage to miss that?!!

Richard Sargent wrote
> You missed the fact that it makes it easier to communicate with the user
> community, since it's a "near-English" grammar, and you can easily use a
> common terminology.
>
>
> On Wed, May 13, 2020, 12:43 Richard Kenneth Eng <

> horrido.hobbies@

> >
> wrote:
>
>>
>> https://smalltalk.tech.blog/2020/05/13/what-are-good-reasons-to-use-smalltalk/
>>
>>
>> Please participate in the poll.
>>

--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

horrido

Re: [ANN] What are good reasons to use Smalltalk?

In reply to this post by horrido

I've updated the poll question, but since there are already 56 votes, it
looks like nobody chose my new addition. Perhaps more of you should vote to
change that.

horrido wrote

> You are quite right. How did I manage to miss that?!!
>
>
> Richard Sargent wrote
>> You missed the fact that it makes it easier to communicate with the user
>> community, since it's a "near-English" grammar, and you can easily use a
>> common terminology.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, May 13, 2020, 12:43 Richard Kenneth Eng <
>
>> horrido.hobbies@
>
>> >
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> https://smalltalk.tech.blog/2020/05/13/what-are-good-reasons-to-use-smalltalk/
>>>
>>>
>>> Please participate in the poll.
>>>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Richard Sargent

Re: [ANN] What are good reasons to use Smalltalk?

Administrator

On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 1:31 PM horrido <[hidden email]> wrote:

I've updated the poll question, but since there are already 56 votes, it
looks like nobody chose my new addition. Perhaps more of you should vote to
change that.

Communicating with developers is implicit. My point was about communicating with subject matter experts. i.e. non-developers.

When our code closely corresponds to the language used by non-developers, we improve our chances that future communication remains fruitful and less subject to mis-interpretation.

horrido wrote
> You are quite right. How did I manage to miss that?!!
>
>
> Richard Sargent wrote
>> You missed the fact that it makes it easier to communicate with the user
>> community, since it's a "near-English" grammar, and you can easily use a
>> common terminology.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, May 13, 2020, 12:43 Richard Kenneth Eng <
>
>> horrido.hobbies@
>
>> >
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> https://smalltalk.tech.blog/2020/05/13/what-are-good-reasons-to-use-smalltalk/
>>>
>>>
>>> Please participate in the poll.
>>>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Esteban A. Maringolo

Re: [ANN] What are good reasons to use Smalltalk?

In reply to this post by horrido

I don't know what is behind the poll system, but it doesn't work in
Brave browser. It simply says "Thanks for participating in the poll."

I find the questions confusing though.

Esteban A. Maringolo

On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 4:43 PM Richard Kenneth Eng
<[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> https://smalltalk.tech.blog/2020/05/13/what-are-good-reasons-to-use-smalltalk/
>
> Please participate in the poll.

horrido

Re: [ANN] What are good reasons to use Smalltalk?

In reply to this post by Richard Sargent

I've changed the word "developers" to "people".

In a poll, it's hard to keep the question's answers brief and to the point.
You don't want to be too wordy. So I have to choose my words very, very
carefully so that I can be as concise as possible. I don't know how
successful I am.

Richard Sargent wrote
> On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 1:31 PM horrido <

> horrido.hobbies@

> > wrote:
>
>> I've updated the poll question, but since there are already 56 votes, it
>> looks like nobody chose my new addition. Perhaps more of you should vote
>> to
>> change that.
>>
>
> Communicating with developers is implicit. My point was about
> communicating
> with subject matter experts. i.e. non-developers.
> When our code closely corresponds to the language used by non-developers,
> we improve our chances that future communication remains fruitful and less
> subject to mis-interpretation.

--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas-2

Re: [ANN] What are good reasons to use Smalltalk?

In reply to this post by Esteban A. Maringolo

Same for Firefox. I thought the poll was closed when I visited. Now I
can check it works on Chromium. I wonder how many people tried to
participate before but has not the proper browser to do it and not even
a clue about that.

How could be this pull be made more open and accessible?

Cheers,

Offray

On 15/05/20 4:35 p. m., Esteban Maringolo wrote:

> I don't know what is behind the poll system, but it doesn't work in
> Brave browser. It simply says "Thanks for participating in the poll."
>
> I find the questions confusing though.
>
> Esteban A. Maringolo
>
> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 4:43 PM Richard Kenneth Eng
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> https://smalltalk.tech.blog/2020/05/13/what-are-good-reasons-to-use-smalltalk/
>>
>> Please participate in the poll.

horrido

Re: [ANN] What are good reasons to use Smalltalk?

It's 2020 and we're still faced with browser compatibility issues?!!

Man, the web is really a piece o' sh*t.

Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas-2 wrote

> Same for Firefox. I thought the poll was closed when I visited. Now I
> can check it works on Chromium. I wonder how many people tried to
> participate before but has not the proper browser to do it and not even
> a clue about that.
>
> How could be this pull be made more open and accessible?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Offray
>
> On 15/05/20 4:35 p. m., Esteban Maringolo wrote:
>> I don't know what is behind the poll system, but it doesn't work in
>> Brave browser. It simply says "Thanks for participating in the poll."
>>
>> I find the questions confusing though.
>>
>> Esteban A. Maringolo
>>
>> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 4:43 PM Richard Kenneth Eng
>> <

> horrido.hobbies@

> > wrote:
>>> https://smalltalk.tech.blog/2020/05/13/what-are-good-reasons-to-use-smalltalk/
>>>
>>> Please participate in the poll.

--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Richard Sargent

Re: [ANN] What are good reasons to use Smalltalk?

Administrator

On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 4:01 PM horrido <[hidden email]> wrote:

It's 2020 and we're still faced with browser compatibility issues?!!

Man, the web is really a piece o' sh*t.

Ah, you forgot the little detail about having to authorize 3-4 dozen(!) scripts from many different sources to run on your computer before the site is remotely usable. And, then you get to their programmers' definition of usable.

Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas-2 wrote
> Same for Firefox. I thought the poll was closed when I visited. Now I
> can check it works on Chromium. I wonder how many people tried to
> participate before but has not the proper browser to do it and not even
> a clue about that.
>
> How could be this pull be made more open and accessible?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Offray
>
> On 15/05/20 4:35 p. m., Esteban Maringolo wrote:
>> I don't know what is behind the poll system, but it doesn't work in
>> Brave browser. It simply says "Thanks for participating in the poll."
>>
>> I find the questions confusing though.
>>
>> Esteban A. Maringolo
>>
>> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 4:43 PM Richard Kenneth Eng
>> <

> horrido.hobbies@

> > wrote:
>>> https://smalltalk.tech.blog/2020/05/13/what-are-good-reasons-to-use-smalltalk/
>>>
>>> Please participate in the poll.

--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Richard O'Keefe

Re: [ANN] What are good reasons to use Smalltalk?

In reply to this post by horrido

The browsers are *way* more compatible than Smalltalk systems are.

I once spoke to a manager at a company I shan't name (it does not

exist any more) about a new international standard being developed

relating to their product (not Smalltalk).  "We don't care about

the standard," he replied, "we ARE the standard."  Come to think of

it, an open source system (again not Smalltalk) I used heavily for

a while decided to ignore the developing standard.  That project is

dead and an attempt to revive it failed.

It's not hard to build web sites that work with the major browsers.

You just have to seriously want to.

On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 11:01, horrido <[hidden email]> wrote:

It's 2020 and we're still faced with browser compatibility issues?!!

Man, the web is really a piece o' sh*t.

Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas-2 wrote
> Same for Firefox. I thought the poll was closed when I visited. Now I
> can check it works on Chromium. I wonder how many people tried to
> participate before but has not the proper browser to do it and not even
> a clue about that.
>
> How could be this pull be made more open and accessible?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Offray
>
> On 15/05/20 4:35 p. m., Esteban Maringolo wrote:
>> I don't know what is behind the poll system, but it doesn't work in
>> Brave browser. It simply says "Thanks for participating in the poll."
>>
>> I find the questions confusing though.
>>
>> Esteban A. Maringolo
>>
>> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 4:43 PM Richard Kenneth Eng
>> <

> horrido.hobbies@

> > wrote:
>>> https://smalltalk.tech.blog/2020/05/13/what-are-good-reasons-to-use-smalltalk/
>>>
>>> Please participate in the poll.

--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Vitor Medina Cruz

Re: [ANN] What are good reasons to use Smalltalk?

Richard

"The browsers are *way* more compatible than Smalltalk systems are."

How so?

On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 4:11 AM Richard O'Keefe <[hidden email]> wrote:

The browsers are *way* more compatible than Smalltalk systems are.
I once spoke to a manager at a company I shan't name (it does not
exist any more) about a new international standard being developed
relating to their product (not Smalltalk). "We don't care about
the standard," he replied, "we ARE the standard." Come to think of
it, an open source system (again not Smalltalk) I used heavily for
a while decided to ignore the developing standard. That project is
dead and an attempt to revive it failed.

It's not hard to build web sites that work with the major browsers.
You just have to seriously want to.

On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 11:01, horrido <[hidden email]> wrote:
It's 2020 and we're still faced with browser compatibility issues?!!

Man, the web is really a piece o' sh*t.

Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas-2 wrote
> Same for Firefox. I thought the poll was closed when I visited. Now I
> can check it works on Chromium. I wonder how many people tried to
> participate before but has not the proper browser to do it and not even
> a clue about that.
>
> How could be this pull be made more open and accessible?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Offray
>
> On 15/05/20 4:35 p. m., Esteban Maringolo wrote:
>> I don't know what is behind the poll system, but it doesn't work in
>> Brave browser. It simply says "Thanks for participating in the poll."
>>
>> I find the questions confusing though.
>>
>> Esteban A. Maringolo
>>
>> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 4:43 PM Richard Kenneth Eng
>> <

> horrido.hobbies@

> > wrote:
>>> https://smalltalk.tech.blog/2020/05/13/what-are-good-reasons-to-use-smalltalk/
>>>
>>> Please participate in the poll.

--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Esteban A. Maringolo

Re: [ANN] What are good reasons to use Smalltalk?

On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 10:37 AM Vitor Medina Cruz <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Richard
>
> "The browsers are *way* more compatible than Smalltalk systems are."
>
> How so?

You can have a webpage, or even a web application (JS) and it will run
exactly the same on all major, modern, web-browsers (Chromium, Safari
and Firefox).

Regards,

Esteban A. Maringolo

Vitor Medina Cruz

Re: [ANN] What are good reasons to use Smalltalk?

You can have a webpage, or even a web application (JS) and it will run
exactly the same on all major, modern, web-browsers (Chromium, Safari
and Firefox).

Sorry, I mean how so are Smalltalk systems less compatible than web browsers are? This means between different distributions of Smalltalk (VA, Squeak, Pharo...)? Same code are not as compatible between different Smalltalks distribution as a web application is between different browsers? How so? Why?

Regards,

Vitor

On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 11:11 AM Esteban Maringolo <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 10:37 AM Vitor Medina Cruz <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Richard
>
> "The browsers are *way* more compatible than Smalltalk systems are."
>
> How so?

You can have a webpage, or even a web application (JS) and it will run
exactly the same on all major, modern, web-browsers (Chromium, Safari
and Firefox).

Regards,

Esteban A. Maringolo

Esteban A. Maringolo

Re: [ANN] What are good reasons to use Smalltalk?

On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 11:34 AM Vitor Medina Cruz <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Sorry, I mean how so are Smalltalk systems less compatible than web browsers are?

Different dialects have different features (e.g. Namespaces, Traits),
syntax, image format...

Smalltalk is a concept, with Smalltalk-80 as the canonical reference,
not even a specification, because ANSI Smalltalk was the closest thing
to a standard (Like ECMA TS39 is for JavaScript), but it was DoA.

> This means between different distributions of Smalltalk (VA, Squeak, Pharo...)? Same code are not as compatible between different Smalltalks distribution as a web application is between different browsers? How so? Why?

Because of history for the most part.
Smalltalk comes from a pre-opensource era, where commercial vendors
were the norm, and competition was not collaborative as it might be
now.

Each one took its own path and merging everything back is non-viable,
both for technical and commercial reasons.

When/if smalltalk grows to a web scale, then the need for standards
and constraint will arise.

Regards!

Esteban A. Maringolo

Vitor Medina Cruz

Re: [ANN] What are good reasons to use Smalltalk?

Thanks!

" When/if smalltalk grows to a web scale "

Let's hope so :)

On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 4:09 PM Esteban Maringolo <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 11:34 AM Vitor Medina Cruz <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Sorry, I mean how so are Smalltalk systems less compatible than web browsers are?

Different dialects have different features (e.g. Namespaces, Traits),
syntax, image format...

Smalltalk is a concept, with Smalltalk-80 as the canonical reference,
not even a specification, because ANSI Smalltalk was the closest thing
to a standard (Like ECMA TS39 is for JavaScript), but it was DoA.

> This means between different distributions of Smalltalk (VA, Squeak, Pharo...)? Same code are not as compatible between different Smalltalks distribution as a web application is between different browsers? How so? Why?

Because of history for the most part.
Smalltalk comes from a pre-opensource era, where commercial vendors
were the norm, and competition was not collaborative as it might be
now.

Each one took its own path and merging everything back is non-viable,
both for technical and commercial reasons.

When/if smalltalk grows to a web scale, then the need for standards
and constraint will arise.

Regards!

Esteban A. Maringolo

horrido

Re: [ANN] What are good reasons to use Smalltalk?

In reply to this post by Esteban A. Maringolo

I can come up with one counter-example. I've been on Quora for the past
several years. From time to time, I encounter weird behaviour in Chrome.
When I try to confirm this in Firefox, the issue goes away!

And, of course, my Smalltalk poll is another counter-example.

Esteban A. Maringolo wrote
> On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 10:37 AM Vitor Medina Cruz <

> vitormcruz@

> > wrote:
>>
>> Richard
>>
>> "The browsers are *way* more compatible than Smalltalk systems are."
>>
>> How so?
>
> You can have a webpage, or even a web application (JS) and it will run
> exactly the same on all major, modern, web-browsers (Chromium, Safari
> and Firefox).
>
> Regards,
>
> Esteban A. Maringolo

--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html