[ANN] What are reasons NOT to use Smalltalk?

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[ANN] What are reasons NOT to use Smalltalk?

horrido
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Re: [ANN] What are reasons NOT to use Smalltalk?

Richard Sargent
Administrator
It wouldn't let me vote without choosing an answer, none of which were my answer.

On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 9:32 AM Richard Kenneth Eng <[hidden email]> wrote:
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Re: [ANN] What are reasons NOT to use Smalltalk?

Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list
Same.  My biggest hesitation is lack of cloud deployment support.  At least for web apps.

For desktop apps, I have been holding off building any UI because of the brik blok spec spec2 churn.

On Jun 19, 2020, at 10:02 AM, Richard Sargent <[hidden email]> wrote:

It wouldn't let me vote without choosing an answer, none of which were my answer.

On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 9:32 AM Richard Kenneth Eng <[hidden email]> wrote:

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Re: [ANN] What are reasons NOT to use Smalltalk?

horrido
In reply to this post by Richard Sargent
I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying you tried to submit "Vote" without
checking off any of the boxes?

You can always add comment to the post.



Richard Sargent wrote
> It wouldn't let me vote without choosing an answer, none of which were my
> answer.
>
> On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 9:32 AM Richard Kenneth Eng <

> horrido.hobbies@

>> wrote:
>
>>
>> https://smalltalk.tech.blog/2020/06/19/what-are-reasons-not-to-use-smalltalk/
>>
>>
>> Thanks for participating in the poll.
>>





--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

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Re: [ANN] What are reasons NOT to use Smalltalk?

Richard Sargent
Administrator


On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 11:39 AM horrido <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying you tried to submit "Vote" without
checking off any of the boxes?

Yes, that is what I am saying. None of those are reasons to NOT use Smalltalk, in my opinion.


You can always add comment to the post.



Richard Sargent wrote
> It wouldn't let me vote without choosing an answer, none of which were my
> answer.
>
> On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 9:32 AM Richard Kenneth Eng <

> horrido.hobbies@

>> wrote:
>
>>
>> https://smalltalk.tech.blog/2020/06/19/what-are-reasons-not-to-use-smalltalk/
>>
>>
>> Thanks for participating in the poll.
>>





--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

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Re: [ANN] What are reasons NOT to use Smalltalk?

Aliaksei Syrel
In reply to this post by Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list
For desktop apps, I have been holding off building any UI because of the brik blok spec spec2 churn.
Imagine trying to build any UI in javascript with their wide family of frameworks ;)

On Fri, 19 Jun 2020 at 20:40, Todd Blanchard via Pharo-users <[hidden email]> wrote:
Same.  My biggest hesitation is lack of cloud deployment support.  At least for web apps.

For desktop apps, I have been holding off building any UI because of the brik blok spec spec2 churn.

On Jun 19, 2020, at 10:02 AM, Richard Sargent <[hidden email]> wrote:

It wouldn't let me vote without choosing an answer, none of which were my answer.

On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 9:32 AM Richard Kenneth Eng <[hidden email]> wrote:

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Re: [ANN] What are reasons NOT to use Smalltalk?

Sven Van Caekenberghe-2
In reply to this post by Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list
Todd,

> On 19 Jun 2020, at 19:04, Todd Blanchard via Pharo-users <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> From: Todd Blanchard <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] What are reasons NOT to use Smalltalk?
> Date: 19 June 2020 at 19:04:37 CEST
> To: Any question about pharo is welcome <[hidden email]>
>
>
> Same.  My biggest hesitation is lack of cloud deployment support.  At least for web apps.

If you are capable of deploying web applications, for any other technology stack, there is really no issue in doing the same for Pharo.

Sven

> For desktop apps, I have been holding off building any UI because of the brik blok spec spec2 churn.
>
>> On Jun 19, 2020, at 10:02 AM, Richard Sargent <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> It wouldn't let me vote without choosing an answer, none of which were my answer.
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 9:32 AM Richard Kenneth Eng <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> https://smalltalk.tech.blog/2020/06/19/what-are-reasons-not-to-use-smalltalk/ 
>>
>> Thanks for participating in the poll.
>
>
>


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Re: [ANN] What are reasons NOT to use Smalltalk?

Esteban A. Maringolo
In reply to this post by Richard Sargent
In my case it didn't let me vote at all, it assumed I already voted.

I started a private tab, disabled tracking (it tracks a lot for a
single post), and then saw the options, and there wasn't a "none of
the above/other" kind of option.
So I didn't vote.

Esteban A. Maringolo

On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 2:02 PM Richard Sargent
<[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> It wouldn't let me vote without choosing an answer, none of which were my answer.
>
> On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 9:32 AM Richard Kenneth Eng <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> https://smalltalk.tech.blog/2020/06/19/what-are-reasons-not-to-use-smalltalk/
>>
>> Thanks for participating in the poll.

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Re: [ANN] What are reasons NOT to use Smalltalk?

Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list
In reply to this post by Sven Van Caekenberghe-2
It isn't plug and play.

For instance, I can pick PHP on an AWS elastic beanstalk menu, set up a couple shell scripts, and deploy PHP with 'eb deploy' out of my local git repo.  Easy.

It is possible to deploy the stuff but to build infrastructure and deployment scripts for a pharo seaside app, it is a lot more DIY work.

I don't always have time to do that.  I can get a box up,, sure.  Getting a fleet up with deployment automation and autoscaling is another can of worms.


On Jun 19, 2020, at 12:18 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote:

If you are capable of deploying web applications, for any other technology stack, there is really no issue in doing the same for Pharo.

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Re: [ANN] What are reasons NOT to use Smalltalk?

Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list
In reply to this post by Aliaksei Syrel
HTML+CSS+JQuery has been stable for a long time.

That's pretty much what I use (plus the odd jquery widget like date picker).

Not keen on writing code I know will be obsolete next year was my primary point.

On Jun 19, 2020, at 12:14 PM, Aliaksei Syrel <[hidden email]> wrote:

Imagine trying to build any UI in javascript with their wide family of frameworks ;)

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Re: [ANN] What are reasons NOT to use Smalltalk?

Russ Whaley
In reply to this post by horrido
Agreed. My biggest issues are non-multiplatform - development and deployment (specifically iOS/mobile support -in a single downloadable IDE). And while I love Pharo, and all the brilliant people who work very hard to make it the best Smalltalk environment available... I shouldn’t have to struggle for months trying to build a usable GUI front end. An LTS model may go a long way in this area, or it could just keep all the cool stuff from ever seeing the light of day.  :)

All that said, I have preferred Smalltalk since my earliest introductions in the early Digitalk days. I went on to Java and C# - and I can easily build UI’s and deploy multi-platform in these environments...

- but I really, REALLY like and prefer Smalltalk. 

Cheers everyone!


On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 12:32 PM Richard Kenneth Eng <[hidden email]> wrote:
--
Russ Whaley
[hidden email]
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Re: [ANN] What are reasons NOT to use Smalltalk?

horrido
In reply to this post by Richard Sargent
That's a limitation of the WordPress poll. It doesn't really allow you to add
additional answers.

However, what you can do is go to "View Results", click on "Comments" at the
bottom of the poll widget, and add a comment, which can include a new
answer. It's not ideal, but that's all Wordpress allows, I'm afraid.



Richard Sargent wrote
> On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 11:39 AM horrido &lt;

> horrido.hobbies@

> &gt; wrote:
>
>> I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying you tried to submit "Vote"
>> without
>> checking off any of the boxes?
>>
>
> Yes, that is what I am saying. None of those are reasons to NOT use
> Smalltalk, in my opinion.
>
>
>> You can always add comment to the post.
>>
>>
>>
>> Richard Sargent wrote
>> > It wouldn't let me vote without choosing an answer, none of which were
>> my
>> > answer.
>> >
>> > On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 9:32 AM Richard Kenneth Eng <
>>
>> > horrido.hobbies@
>>
>> >> wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> https://smalltalk.tech.blog/2020/06/19/what-are-reasons-not-to-use-smalltalk/
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Thanks for participating in the poll.
>> >>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>>
>>





--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

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Re: [ANN] What are reasons NOT to use Smalltalk?

horrido
In reply to this post by Richard Sargent
I decided to add a new option: "None of the above (add a comment for a new
answer)."

Hopefully, this fixes the issue.



Richard Sargent wrote
> On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 11:39 AM horrido &lt;

> horrido.hobbies@

> &gt; wrote:
>
>> I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying you tried to submit "Vote"
>> without
>> checking off any of the boxes?
>>
>
> Yes, that is what I am saying. None of those are reasons to NOT use
> Smalltalk, in my opinion.
>
>
>> You can always add comment to the post.
>>
>>
>>
>> Richard Sargent wrote
>> > It wouldn't let me vote without choosing an answer, none of which were
>> my
>> > answer.
>> >
>> > On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 9:32 AM Richard Kenneth Eng <
>>
>> > horrido.hobbies@
>>
>> >> wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> https://smalltalk.tech.blog/2020/06/19/what-are-reasons-not-to-use-smalltalk/
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Thanks for participating in the poll.
>> >>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>>
>>





--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

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Re: [ANN] What are reasons NOT to use Smalltalk?

Stéphane Ducasse
In reply to this post by Russ Whaley
A little point in the discussion.
If you do not contribute then there is less chance that the situation will improve.

Look at Sven, he is running a business for real.
Still he develops and documents and shares with all of you
        Zinc
        Neo suite
        Chapter and script on deployment.

So yes we do not have one click solutions but we are not millions of people.
Still some people do successfully deploy Pharo app and automate it.

Now about JS framework. We stopped maintaining some JS app just because everything was
moving under our feets even the package manager.
In a project to migrate from GWT to Angular the angular versions changed in the curse of the project.

So at the end of the day when you think about what you have done, you can also think
about what you have done for improving the ecosystem.

Because if you only count on other work then complain.

S.
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Re: [ANN] What are reasons NOT to use Smalltalk?

Vitor Medina Cruz
In reply to this post by Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list
+1

On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 3:09 PM Todd Blanchard via Pharo-users <[hidden email]> wrote:
Same.  My biggest hesitation is lack of cloud deployment support.  At least for web apps.

For desktop apps, I have been holding off building any UI because of the brik blok spec spec2 churn.

On Jun 19, 2020, at 10:02 AM, Richard Sargent <[hidden email]> wrote:

It wouldn't let me vote without choosing an answer, none of which were my answer.

On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 9:32 AM Richard Kenneth Eng <[hidden email]> wrote:

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Re: [ANN] What are reasons NOT to use Smalltalk?

Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas-2
In reply to this post by horrido

Ummm... this is another poll that doesn't render well on Brave or Firefox. I can't even see the options. I wonder if there is not any more estandar cross-browser way of conducting these polls.

Cheers,

Offray

On 19/06/20 11:31 a. m., Richard Kenneth Eng wrote:
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Re: [ANN] What are reasons NOT to use Smalltalk?

eftomi
In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse
Dear all,

This thread is a bit old, but anyways: here are my two cents on the question 'What are reasons not to use Smalltalk'. Thanks, Horrido, to constantly promote these kind of discussions.

I think that your polls are mixing very different reasons - for instance, we choose development tools in different settings: as a group, as a firm, as an individual -- and for different purposes - for one of the projects, for some projects, as a general orientation of a firm, a specific team, or an individual. So I don't respond to these polls since it would be hard to answer properly, and "all of the above" is probably useless to you.

What struck me about Pharo is the beauty and simplicity of the language and environment - and its great community, of course! Despite the fact that I have to use other tools because of my habits, environment, colleagues, students, and customers, I keep running Pharo almost every day, testing the ideas - it became a habit. I think that the consortium is well aware of the important things to make Pharo a feasible toolset for serious development, like stability, the proper GUI support, and books. 

In my own experience, Pharo as a language is pretty mature. In every-day situation with Pharo I deal with small challenges like remembering how to change all spaces with hyphens in a String - as I do in other languages when I try to remember all the methods that are already made for me in a certain language/libraries. This is not a problem.

The real challenge is somewhere else: it's the comprehension of all the packages that are needed for a full-size project, from persistence to GUI. When documentation is scarce you have to go more or less deep into the code which I often find quite challenging. Besides commentaries, it helps tremendously if developers would always use typed variables to indicate API, like

properties: aDictionary

or

presentWith: aWAPresenter

instead of 

properties: someProperties

and

presentWith: anObject

It's true that Pharo is not among "strongly typed" languages, however we sometimes forget that typing is not just a technical thing to avoid run-time errors, but it also gives information to other developers what's going on in the code and who should be the receiver.

In some packages I also miss the use of superclasses - you can see that a bunch of classes directly inherits from Object or some other general class, however they could be organized in a better inheritance hierarchies, thus additionaly explaining their common and individual behaviour. 

Both and many other concepts are nicely described in books Learning OOP and Pharo with Style. I know that we are always eager to develop the package and satisfied when it works - and then it's hard to find the time to tie up these little pieces. I hope I don't sound too patronizing - I'm the same myself.

Years ago Borland made a breakthrough with Turbo Pascal and Turbo C. For both tools they prepared two sets of books: user manual and reference manual. Books about Pharo are very nice and helpful, they are user manuals. If all the crucial packages would respect typed variables and class hierarchies, we won't need reference manuals at all :-)

So, yeah, I think that the tipping point for Pharo is the question of how much time a developer should use to rediscover the behaviour which is already there. 

Best wishes
Tomaz
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Re: [ANN] What are reasons NOT to use Smalltalk?

Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list

Hi

I concur on the documentation problem.

I concur that there is plenty of documentation, but finding it is a chore.

I have two side projects I have started.
Doc at http://www.squeaksource.com/@FICALqrUmxQTIHgr/ul4_-exC
And SeasideDoc (which I started before Doc)  http://www.squeaksource.com/@FICALqrUmxQTIHgr/zwF3AJHc

I expect that I will develop Doc completely before refactoring SeasideDoc to sit on top of it.

The core ideas are:

1. That documentation should be available in-image in familiar terms--by sending messages to "stuff"
2. The documentation should be VERY EASY to add to (unlike the HelpBrowser, which ,imho, is coding, not documenting).
3. StackExchange style commenting with upvotes, priority.
4. Doc saves to a normal repository squeaksource or however pharo does its stuff, and hence, evolves with the image.
5. ?? this one is a stickler. should documentation be tightly bound with the Objects per Class comment style? or should it exist symbiotically? I think the latter. If so, what is the best design pattern(s) to facilitate that.


Regarding 1. ......by sending messages to "stuff"

stuff is..

classes:   Dictionary doc   
packages: PG3 doc
frameworks: Seaside doc
                   XTreams doc
Design Patterns:  Singleton doc
                           Facade doc
                            BigBallOfMud doc  (j.k.)

I think typical Gnu-Linux style "man" , "help" , "info" or "verbose" would be an incredibly useful tool in bridging the "how do I do foo" gap that Squeak certaintly has and I suspect Pharo does too.


I am very busy with a PEG grammar development project, so this is back burner stuff for me.

I post this in the hope that some guru will take over the project and make Pharo/Squeak/ (and other) Smalltalks the BEST documented systems on the internet.

Cheers.

tty





---- On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 10:08:29 -0400 Tomaž Turk <[hidden email]> wrote ----

Dear all,

This thread is a bit old, but anyways: here are my two cents on the question 'What are reasons not to use Smalltalk'. Thanks, Horrido, to constantly promote these kind of discussions.

I think that your polls are mixing very different reasons - for instance, we choose development tools in different settings: as a group, as a firm, as an individual -- and for different purposes - for one of the projects, for some projects, as a general orientation of a firm, a specific team, or an individual. So I don't respond to these polls since it would be hard to answer properly, and "all of the above" is probably useless to you.

What struck me about Pharo is the beauty and simplicity of the language and environment - and its great community, of course! Despite the fact that I have to use other tools because of my habits, environment, colleagues, students, and customers, I keep running Pharo almost every day, testing the ideas - it became a habit. I think that the consortium is well aware of the important things to make Pharo a feasible toolset for serious development, like stability, the proper GUI support, and books. 

In my own experience, Pharo as a language is pretty mature. In every-day situation with Pharo I deal with small challenges like remembering how to change all spaces with hyphens in a String - as I do in other languages when I try to remember all the methods that are already made for me in a certain language/libraries. This is not a problem.

The real challenge is somewhere else: it's the comprehension of all the packages that are needed for a full-size project, from persistence to GUI. When documentation is scarce you have to go more or less deep into the code which I often find quite challenging. Besides commentaries, it helps tremendously if developers would always use typed variables to indicate API, like

properties: aDictionary

or

presentWith: aWAPresenter

instead of 

properties: someProperties

and

presentWith: anObject

It's true that Pharo is not among "strongly typed" languages, however we sometimes forget that typing is not just a technical thing to avoid run-time errors, but it also gives information to other developers what's going on in the code and who should be the receiver.

In some packages I also miss the use of superclasses - you can see that a bunch of classes directly inherits from Object or some other general class, however they could be organized in a better inheritance hierarchies, thus additionaly explaining their common and individual behaviour. 

Both and many other concepts are nicely described in books Learning OOP and Pharo with Style. I know that we are always eager to develop the package and satisfied when it works - and then it's hard to find the time to tie up these little pieces. I hope I don't sound too patronizing - I'm the same myself.

Years ago Borland made a breakthrough with Turbo Pascal and Turbo C. For both tools they prepared two sets of books: user manual and reference manual. Books about Pharo are very nice and helpful, they are user manuals. If all the crucial packages would respect typed variables and class hierarchies, we won't need reference manuals at all :-)

So, yeah, I think that the tipping point for Pharo is the question of how much time a developer should use to rediscover the behaviour which is already there. 

Best wishes
Tomaz