About ConfigurationOfXMLSupport

>
> Am 29.12.2011 um 23:04 schrieb Stéphane Ducasse:
>
>> Hi guys
>>
>> I thought that XMLSupport was about parsing and XMLNode traversal.
>> So why the configuration contains references to SIXX and Grease Core?
>>
> It is called XMLSupport. So it combines xml support technologies (otherwise it should be named ConfigurationOfXMLParsersAndDOM). I think Michael just dropped the name in and nobody changed it.
>
> The presence of Sixx and the dependency of Grease is my duty (I'm intentionally not writing 'my faul't). I'm working a lot in GemStone and differences between the dialects are a real pain if you try to develop in pharo and deploy in GemStone. As we also need to exchange data we ported Sixx to GemStone. I've put Sixx in the configuration to keep the development of XML parser and Sixx close because Sixx relies on the interface of xml parser pretty much. As every module is a symbol there is no problem. And Sixx is not loaded by default.

>
> On Jan 4, 2012, at 3:59 PM, Norbert Hartl wrote:
>
>>
>> Am 29.12.2011 um 23:04 schrieb Stéphane Ducasse:
>>
>>> Hi guys
>>>
>>> I thought that XMLSupport was about parsing and XMLNode traversal.
>>> So why the configuration contains references to SIXX and Grease Core?
>>>
>> It is called XMLSupport. So it combines xml support technologies (otherwise it should be named ConfigurationOfXMLParsersAndDOM). I think Michael just dropped the name in and nobody changed it.
>>
>> The presence of Sixx and the dependency of Grease is my duty (I'm intentionally not writing 'my faul't). I'm working a lot in GemStone and differences between the dialects are a real pain if you try to develop in pharo and deploy in GemStone. As we also need to exchange data we ported Sixx to GemStone. I've put Sixx in the configuration to keep the development of XML parser and Sixx close because Sixx relies on the interface of xml parser pretty much. As every module is a symbol there is no problem. And Sixx is not loaded by default.
>
> I know what is SIXX but to me you should write a ConfigurationOfSixx, if each package move its clients close to him then
> we will end up in a mess.

>
>
>> Later I recognized that in pharo terms this is not possible. I had a discussion with Sven because I wanted to have a zinc port for gemstone. But he was more interested to get zinc close to pharo. So the grease way was not an option and the result is the port to gemstone is still incomplete and hard to maintain.
>>
>> Sorry for the long answer but this is just another story of how hard it is to have modular systems where all of the mentioned issues wouldn't be that much of a problem. I would wish that we find a good solution to make sources more interchangable between platforms. I don't mean get rid of the dialect differences (because I don't think it will happen) but to design code in a way that platform subtleties can be compensated in an object oriented way.
>>
>> Norbert
>>
>>
>
>

>
> Norbert
>
>>
>>
>>> Later I recognized that in pharo terms this is not possible. I had a discussion with Sven because I wanted to have a zinc port for gemstone. But he was more interested to get zinc close to pharo. So the grease way was not an option and the result is the port to gemstone is still incomplete and hard to maintain.
>>>
>>> Sorry for the long answer but this is just another story of how hard it is to have modular systems where all of the mentioned issues wouldn't be that much of a problem. I would wish that we find a good solution to make sources more interchangable between platforms. I don't mean get rid of the dialect differences (because I don't think it will happen) but to design code in a way that platform subtleties can be compensated in an object oriented way.
>>>
>>> Norbert
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

>
>>>> Sixx is a serializer/deserializer for XML and therefor is using streams. Streams are one of those fine examples where platform differences can drive you nuts. I couldn't understand all the fuzz of not using sport and preferring grease for seaside but only for seaside etc. I had a hard time dealing with platform subtleties for character encoding (yes, I care!) and streams when it comes to dialects. So I decided to introduce grease and made the GemStone port of Sixx depend on streams and character encoding behaviour of grease (Please sue me!). Dale was so kind to make even GemStone Core to depend on Grease to make Xml loadable by the core.
>>>
>>> But put that in ConfigurationOfSixx :)
>>>
>> Well, just do it.
>
> I do not use Sixx.
> But I use XMLParser.
>

>
>>
>> Norbert
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Later I recognized that in pharo terms this is not possible. I had a discussion with Sven because I wanted to have a zinc port for gemstone. But he was more interested to get zinc close to pharo. So the grease way was not an option and the result is the port to gemstone is still incomplete and hard to maintain.
>>>>
>>>> Sorry for the long answer but this is just another story of how hard it is to have modular systems where all of the mentioned issues wouldn't be that much of a problem. I would wish that we find a good solution to make sources more interchangable between platforms. I don't mean get rid of the dialect differences (because I don't think it will happen) but to design code in a way that platform subtleties can be compensated in an object oriented way.
>>>>
>>>> Norbert
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

>
> Am 06.01.2012 um 14:13 schrieb Stéphane Ducasse:
>
>>>
>>> I disagree. There is more than one way to create a mess. One is what you describe! The other one you get by over-engineering things. If you create a configuration for every package that consist of one file only you will get tons of configuration files with hard to maintain dependencies. A bigger mess in my opinion (and experience). You always have to leverage the use and effect of doing things. Configurations can have groups which is an internal separation of things that belong together.
>>> As there are more ways to do it I have trouble understanding the "if each package move its clients...". There is no need to have a single approach. If it would be that way it would be good if pharo would just follow ANSI.
>>
>> So then why not having a single one?
>
> You don't need to prove you are stubborn sometimes. I know it :)

> And so it is better to have even the smallest client in its own configuration because if it would be in eye sight you might be forced to think about to care about this package as well. Is it like that?
>
>> So I will create a ConfigurationOfXMLParser.
>>
> Yes, and create it for pharo only, so I do not need to care about it.
>>
>>>>> Sixx is a serializer/deserializer for XML and therefor is using streams. Streams are one of those fine examples where platform differences can drive you nuts. I couldn't understand all the fuzz of not using sport and preferring grease for seaside but only for seaside etc. I had a hard time dealing with platform subtleties for character encoding (yes, I care!) and streams when it comes to dialects. So I decided to introduce grease and made the GemStone port of Sixx depend on streams and character encoding behaviour of grease (Please sue me!). Dale was so kind to make even GemStone Core to depend on Grease to make Xml loadable by the core.
>>>>
>>>> But put that in ConfigurationOfSixx :)
>>>>
>>> Well, just do it.
>>
>> I do not use Sixx.
>> But I use XMLParser.
>>
> If you load ConfigurationOfXMLSupport and use it _where_ do you see what is configured in there?

>
> On Jan 6, 2012, at 2:36 PM, Norbert Hartl wrote:
>
>>
>> Am 06.01.2012 um 14:13 schrieb Stéphane Ducasse:
>>
>>>>
>>>> I disagree. There is more than one way to create a mess. One is what you describe! The other one you get by over-engineering things. If you create a configuration for every package that consist of one file only you will get tons of configuration files with hard to maintain dependencies. A bigger mess in my opinion (and experience). You always have to leverage the use and effect of doing things. Configurations can have groups which is an internal separation of things that belong together.
>>>> As there are more ways to do it I have trouble understanding the "if each package move its clients...". There is no need to have a single approach. If it would be that way it would be good if pharo would just follow ANSI.
>>>
>>> So then why not having a single one?
>>
>> You don't need to prove you are stubborn sometimes. I know it :)
>
> good :)
>
>>
>>> I do not use Sixx.
>>> But I use XMLParser.
>>>
>>> So do you think that I can maintain pastel, sixx versions that I do not use? So do you think that having a large configuration
>>> with parts that are unmaintained is good?
>>> I do not think so.
>>>
>> Stef, what are you trying to tell? Of course, you can't maintain a software you do not use. Nobody tells me you maintain the software _that you_ use. But I can understand that you do not care about breaking clients of the software that you use and maintain.
>
> no but this is distribution of responsibilities.

>> And so it is better to have even the smallest client in its own configuration because if it would be in eye sight you might be forced to think about to care about this package as well. Is it like that?
>>
>>> So I will create a ConfigurationOfXMLParser.
>>>
>> Yes, and create it for pharo only, so I do not need to care about it.
>>>
>>>>>> Sixx is a serializer/deserializer for XML and therefor is using streams. Streams are one of those fine examples where platform differences can drive you nuts. I couldn't understand all the fuzz of not using sport and preferring grease for seaside but only for seaside etc. I had a hard time dealing with platform subtleties for character encoding (yes, I care!) and streams when it comes to dialects. So I decided to introduce grease and made the GemStone port of Sixx depend on streams and character encoding behaviour of grease (Please sue me!). Dale was so kind to make even GemStone Core to depend on Grease to make Xml loadable by the core.
>>>>>
>>>>> But put that in ConfigurationOfSixx :)
>>>>>
>>>> Well, just do it.
>>>
>>> I do not use Sixx.
>>> But I use XMLParser.
>>>
>> If you load ConfigurationOfXMLSupport and use it _where_ do you see what is configured in there?
>
> If I use it then I have another configuration and I look at it to know what I need to load. For example I want to run XMLParser tests together
> with my tests.
>
>> Maybe we should proceed this discussion in spring. I understand that in winter when the light is dim it is too easy to see the world in black and white. Not your fault!
>
> No we have sun here.
> I have to read configurationOfXMLSupport because I have other packages that rely on it.
> and the more complex it is the more painful for its clients.

> >
> > Am 06.01.2012 um 14:13 schrieb Stéphane Ducasse:
> >
> >>>
> >>> I disagree. There is more than one way to create a mess. One is what you describe! The other one you get by over-engineering things. If you create a configuration for every package that consist of one file only you will get tons of configuration files with hard to maintain dependencies. A bigger mess in my opinion (and experience). You always have to leverage the use and effect of doing things. Configurations can have groups which is an internal separation of things that belong together.
> >>> As there are more ways to do it I have trouble understanding the "if each package move its clients...". There is no need to have a single approach. If it would be that way it would be good if pharo would just follow ANSI.
> >>
> >> So then why not having a single one?
> >
> > You don't need to prove you are stubborn sometimes. I know it :)
>
> good :)
>
> >
> >> I do not use Sixx.
> >> But I use XMLParser.
> >>
> >> So do you think that I can maintain pastel, sixx versions that I do not use? So do you think that having a large configuration
> >> with parts that are unmaintained is good?
> >> I do not think so.
> >>
> > Stef, what are you trying to tell? Of course, you can't maintain a software you do not use. Nobody tells me you maintain the software _that you_ use. But I can understand that you do not care about breaking clients of the software that you use and maintain.
>
> no but this is distribution of responsibilities.
> This is like switch vs polymorphism. Switch are cool because all the logic is in one place but we know the price.
>
> Now if I want to have a jenkins system loading and running the tests of configurationOf then I prefer to have one per project.
>
> > And so it is better to have even the smallest client in its own configuration because if it would be in eye sight you might be forced to think about to care about this package as well. Is it like that?
> >
> >> So I will create a ConfigurationOfXMLParser.
> >>
> > Yes, and create it for pharo only, so I do not need to care about it.
> >>
> >>>>> Sixx is a serializer/deserializer for XML and therefor is using streams. Streams are one of those fine examples where platform differences can drive you nuts. I couldn't understand all the fuzz of not using sport and preferring grease for seaside but only for seaside etc. I had a hard time dealing with platform subtleties for character encoding (yes, I care!) and streams when it comes to dialects. So I decided to introduce grease and made the GemStone port of Sixx depend on streams and character encoding behaviour of grease (Please sue me!). Dale was so kind to make even GemStone Core to depend on Grease to make Xml loadable by the core.
> >>>>
> >>>> But put that in ConfigurationOfSixx :)
> >>>>
> >>> Well, just do it.
> >>
> >> I do not use Sixx.
> >> But I use XMLParser.
> >>
> > If you load ConfigurationOfXMLSupport and use it _where_ do you see what is configured in there?
>
> If I use it then I have another configuration and I look at it to know what I need to load. For example I want to run XMLParser tests together
> with my tests.
>
> > Maybe we should proceed this discussion in spring. I understand that in winter when the light is dim it is too easy to see the world in black and white. Not your fault!
>
> No we have sun here.
> I have to read configurationOfXMLSupport because I have other packages that rely on it.
> and the more complex it is the more painful for its clients.
>
>
>
>