About Seaside 3.0
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+1. They even have choosen a representative typography and took the work to
inject that even when is not standard (using imgs). That make evident that they really know about the power that design has to make messages to reach users. I mean, even to the typography level. I work with designers too and I'm learning design in several domains (not only web) just to understand thinking all the time how to make a better web app. Differently from a couple of years ago, I have today a lot of respect for design principles. We need to embrace this principles and show that with facts. Cheers, Sebastian Sastre > -----Mensaje original----- > De: [hidden email] > [mailto:[hidden email]] En nombre > de stephane ducasse > Enviado el: Lunes, 14 de Julio de 2008 13:46 > Para: Seaside - general discussion > Asunto: Re: [Seaside] About Seaside 3.0 > > I'm impressed by the communication effort and the style. > > > > How close is Seaside to being able to offer something like Heroku? > > http://heroku.com/ > > > > This seems to be the start of the art in 'simple to get started'. > > Start > > coding from your browser, build and deploy a 'hello world' > app in 5 > > minutes, > > tell your friends to point their browsers at your site. Seems like > > Seaside > > has most of that too, and by enabling it from the browser on a > > hosted stack, > > all the questions about stack, integration etc disappear. > > I think that this was the meta thread I had in mind. > Technical solutions > are just part of the overall solutions. We are painfully > writing a book > but I would love to see other people contribute to seaside and this > does not mean technically. > > Stef > _______________________________________________ > seaside mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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In reply to this post by Boris Popov, DeepCove Labs (SNN)
On Jul 14, 2008, at 1:33 PM, Boris Popov wrote: > I tend to think this is a recipe for disaster as plain html-to-code > translator will bypass a valuable step of you hand-factoring the code > for reuse and longevity. What you might end up with are long methods > that are essentially complete templates in their own right and we're > back to square one. Which could then be refactored etc and you would at least have the assurance that they were translated correctly, whereas lord knows how many errors a human might introduce. And that right there would be enough of a plus for me to pursue it. Start small, make better as you go. _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
RE: About Seaside 3.0
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In my experience unless the process centers around factoring from the
get go, developers tend to leave the thing as is, because it achieves the results they are looking for. -Boris -- +1.604.689.0322 DeepCove Labs Ltd. 4th floor 595 Howe Street Vancouver, Canada V6C 2T5 http://tinyurl.com/r7uw4 [hidden email] CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email is intended only for the persons named in the message header. Unless otherwise indicated, it contains information that is private and confidential. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender and delete the entire message including any attachments. Thank you. > -----Original Message----- > From: Sean Allen [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Sean Allen > Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 11:55 AM > To: Boris Popov > Cc: Seaside - general discussion > Subject: Re: [Seaside] About Seaside 3.0 > > > On Jul 14, 2008, at 1:33 PM, Boris Popov wrote: > > > I tend to think this is a recipe for disaster as plain html-to-code > > translator will bypass a valuable step of you hand-factoring the > > for reuse and longevity. What you might end up with are long methods > > that are essentially complete templates in their own right and we're > > back to square one. > > Which could then be refactored etc and you would at least have the > assurance > that they were translated correctly, whereas lord knows how many errors > a human might introduce. And that right there would be enough of a plus > for me to pursue it. > > Start small, make better as you go. _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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wonderful for them.
i am not that person. just because some people are lazy doesnt mean you shouldnt do it. by that token, lotus 1-2-3 would never have been written as it allows lazy people not to really understand what is going on with calculations and numbers and overlook mistakes. On Jul 14, 2008, at 3:04 PM, Boris Popov wrote: > In my experience unless the process centers around factoring from the > get go, developers tend to leave the thing as is, because it achieves > the results they are looking for. > > -Boris > > -- > +1.604.689.0322 > DeepCove Labs Ltd. > 4th floor 595 Howe Street > Vancouver, Canada V6C 2T5 > http://tinyurl.com/r7uw4 > > [hidden email] > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE > > This email is intended only for the persons named in the message > header. Unless otherwise indicated, it contains information that is > private and confidential. If you have received it in error, please > notify the sender and delete the entire message including any > attachments. > > Thank you. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Sean Allen [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Sean Allen >> Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 11:55 AM >> To: Boris Popov >> Cc: Seaside - general discussion >> Subject: Re: [Seaside] About Seaside 3.0 >> >> >> On Jul 14, 2008, at 1:33 PM, Boris Popov wrote: >> >>> I tend to think this is a recipe for disaster as plain html-to-code >>> translator will bypass a valuable step of you hand-factoring the > code >>> for reuse and longevity. What you might end up with are long methods >>> that are essentially complete templates in their own right and we're >>> back to square one. >> >> Which could then be refactored etc and you would at least have the >> assurance >> that they were translated correctly, whereas lord knows how many > errors >> a human might introduce. And that right there would be enough of a > plus >> for me to pursue it. >> >> Start small, make better as you go. _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
RE: About Seaside 3.0
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I imagine one could easily write a code generator as a separate project
(not base) by parsing validating XHTML (not HMTL) and stepping through a tree. One catch would be a mismatch between standard tags/attributes and names chosen for readability in Seaside, so you'd have to either a) extend brush classes with standard name alias methods b) keep an up-to-date mapping of standard-seaside naming conventions. -Boris -- +1.604.689.0322 DeepCove Labs Ltd. 4th floor 595 Howe Street Vancouver, Canada V6C 2T5 http://tinyurl.com/r7uw4 [hidden email] CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email is intended only for the persons named in the message header. Unless otherwise indicated, it contains information that is private and confidential. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender and delete the entire message including any attachments. Thank you. > -----Original Message----- > From: Sean Allen [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Sean Allen > Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 12:11 PM > To: Boris Popov > Cc: Seaside - general discussion > Subject: Re: [Seaside] About Seaside 3.0 > > wonderful for them. > > i am not that person. > > just because some people are lazy doesnt mean you shouldnt do it. > > by that token, lotus 1-2-3 would never have been written as it allows > lazy people not to really understand what is going on with > and numbers and overlook mistakes. > > On Jul 14, 2008, at 3:04 PM, Boris Popov wrote: > > > In my experience unless the process centers around factoring from the > > get go, developers tend to leave the thing as is, because it achieves > > the results they are looking for. > > > > -Boris > > > > -- > > +1.604.689.0322 > > DeepCove Labs Ltd. > > 4th floor 595 Howe Street > > Vancouver, Canada V6C 2T5 > > http://tinyurl.com/r7uw4 > > > > [hidden email] > > > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE > > > > This email is intended only for the persons named in the message > > header. Unless otherwise indicated, it contains information that is > > private and confidential. If you have received it in error, please > > notify the sender and delete the entire message including any > > attachments. > > > > Thank you. > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Sean Allen [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Sean > >> Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 11:55 AM > >> To: Boris Popov > >> Cc: Seaside - general discussion > >> Subject: Re: [Seaside] About Seaside 3.0 > >> > >> > >> On Jul 14, 2008, at 1:33 PM, Boris Popov wrote: > >> > >>> I tend to think this is a recipe for disaster as plain html-to-code > >>> translator will bypass a valuable step of you hand-factoring the > > code > >>> for reuse and longevity. What you might end up with are long methods > >>> that are essentially complete templates in their own right and we're > >>> back to square one. > >> > >> Which could then be refactored etc and you would at least have the > >> assurance > >> that they were translated correctly, whereas lord knows how many > > errors > >> a human might introduce. And that right there would be enough of a > > plus > >> for me to pursue it. > >> > >> Start small, make better as you go. _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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In reply to this post by Randal L. Schwartz
I was thinking about that too. Perhaps something OMeta based for easy score, I like that better :)extending and tweaking. An HTMLToSeasideCode project, anyone? On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 12:30 PM, Randal L. Schwartz <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>>> "Sean" == Sean Allen <[hidden email]> writes: -- David Zmick /dz0004455\ http://dz0004455.googlepages.com http://dz0004455.blogspot.com _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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In reply to this post by NorbertHartl
On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 10:49 AM, Norbert Hartl <[hidden email]> wrote:
[snip quoted material] > Now that I read the thread as whole I have a question. What I can read > is people having lots of enhancements in mind they want to see in > seaside. And there are seaside developers which are trying to keep the > "pollution" away from seaside :) The most enhancements would fit > quite good in a complete web application stack. So why aren't we > creating such a web application stack (call it "lido")? Because no-one has stepped forward to lead such a community effort :-) > To summarize I read arguments: > - things that are good ideas but that don't belong into seaside I'm not sure what these would be > - help for setup of things like apache > - useful components > - persistency integration I think you you've identified some key points for easing the adoption of Seaside, but the reason no-one's scratching that itch, is that there really isn't that big a problem when you're in the know - download Damien's web-dev image, set-up Apache following Ramon's examples, load ShoreComponents or roll your own, and pick your persistence solution - it's not that these elements aren't there, it's that there's no step-by-step guide that puts all of this information in the hands of developers new to Squeak and Seaside. If one of the books that are under development is addressing these then that will be an ideal third step to follow on from Squeak By Example and A Walk on the Seaside. If not, then a few more step-by-step blog posts might help. Cheers, Michael _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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In reply to this post by SeanTAllen
My instinct is that if you can get the html into xhtml a "simple" xslt or other xml manipulator would be able to do this easily. You should try doing this on your own, if you have any free time at all.
On 7/14/08, Randal L. Schwartz <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>>> "Sean" == Sean Allen <[hidden email]> writes: _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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In reply to this post by SeanTAllen
May be at that moment ask the seaside experts how you can contribute.
Stef On Jul 14, 2008, at 8:48 PM, Sean Allen wrote: > > On Jul 14, 2008, at 1:30 PM, Randal L. Schwartz wrote: > >>>>>>> "Sean" == Sean Allen <[hidden email]> writes: >> >> Sean> What I would like to see, is the ability to take html and >> generate >> Sean> smalltalk code to generate said html from it. Then I can have >> a designer >> Sean> do their thing and take it and process it. >> >> I was thinking about that too. Perhaps something OMeta based for >> easy >> extending and tweaking. An HTMLToSeasideCode project, anyone? > > I have some pressing immediate concerns right now but about 4-6 > months from > now I should have myself and a couple other people who could put > some time > towards learning and contributing towards such a project. > > _______________________________________________ > seaside mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside > _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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In reply to this post by Sebastian Sastre-2
Yeap!
I'm sensitive to visual beauty and this is why I nearly fainted when I opened any Smalltalk for the first time except the Squeak version of Henryk who was based on subpixel rendering and used to have transparent menus before MacOS X. Stef > +1. They even have choosen a representative typography and took the > work to > inject that even when is not standard (using imgs). That make > evident that they > really know about the power that design has to make messages to > reach users. I > mean, even to the typography level. > > I work with designers too and I'm learning design in several domains > (not only > web) just to understand thinking all the time how to make a better > web app. > > Differently from a couple of years ago, I have today a lot of > respect for design > principles. We need to embrace this principles and show that with > facts. > > Cheers, > > Sebastian Sastre > > > > >> -----Mensaje original----- >> De: [hidden email] >> [mailto:[hidden email]] En nombre >> de stephane ducasse >> Enviado el: Lunes, 14 de Julio de 2008 13:46 >> Para: Seaside - general discussion >> Asunto: Re: [Seaside] About Seaside 3.0 >> >> I'm impressed by the communication effort and the style. >> >> >>> How close is Seaside to being able to offer something like Heroku? >>> http://heroku.com/ >>> >>> This seems to be the start of the art in 'simple to get started'. >>> Start >>> coding from your browser, build and deploy a 'hello world' >> app in 5 >>> minutes, >>> tell your friends to point their browsers at your site. Seems like >>> Seaside >>> has most of that too, and by enabling it from the browser on a >>> hosted stack, >>> all the questions about stack, integration etc disappear. >> >> I think that this was the meta thread I had in mind. >> Technical solutions >> are just part of the overall solutions. We are painfully >> writing a book >> but I would love to see other people contribute to seaside and this >> does not mean technically. >> >> Stef >> _______________________________________________ >> seaside mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside > > _______________________________________________ > seaside mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside > _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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In reply to this post by Michael Davies-2
>> I think you you've identified some key points for easing the adoption
> of Seaside, but the reason no-one's scratching that itch, is that > there really isn't that big a problem when you're in the know - > download Damien's web-dev image, set-up Apache following Ramon's > examples, load ShoreComponents or roll your own, and pick your > persistence solution - it's not that these elements aren't there, it's > that there's no step-by-step guide that puts all of this information > in the hands of developers new to Squeak and Seaside. For me this is a problem. There is a huge difference between a one click experience and not finding the right information.... Stef _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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In reply to this post by cedreek
On Sun, Jul 13, 2008 at 2:38 PM, cdrick <[hidden email]> wrote: [snip]
One good example of this can be found in both Zend Framework and Rails running behind Apache where I can drop PHP, XHTML, and some on into
a directory called public.
_______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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