About my recursive blues :)

> Hi guys
>
> Sometimes I'm not in good mood. Today I was in a bad bad mood. Quite bad even badder.
> I was wondering why I was doing all that and the rest. What was the use to do Pharo
> if we get Squeak doing exactly the same - Ok we were right long time ago but still seeing all the removal of
> crappy code we begged to be removed and got bashed for and also doing all that effort and seeing it redone
> was not helping. Being right sometimes is not even cool  :) So a plain bad day.... cold and rainy.
> I was frustrated that I cannot be somebody else, doing stuff full time and no other duties
> and going faster. In short nothing was working and I was a frustation ball like I'm good at being.
>  

> 2010/1/7 Miguel Enrique Cob? Martinez:
>
> > Respect to Squeak, I seriously began to write a reply to the mail from
> > Andreas announcing the removal of Etoys
>
> Are you referring to this message:
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2010-January/142974.html?
>
> The one that states "... I finished the first round on making Etoys
> package *reloadable* in trunk" (emphasis mine).
>
> That is not the same as removal to me?

>> From this newbee, what you and the Pharo-dev guys are doing is
> of great value and inspiration.  That this kind of work can be done
> this way is amazing, and fun, and, please keep doing what you're
> doing   :)
>
> Cheers,
> Sheri Mahoney
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/About-my-recursive-blues-tp4262984p4264916.html
> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
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> Hey Stef,
>
> isn't anything wrong with having a bad mood day, or even thinking that
> the path chosen wasn't right. All of us have that kind of feelings
> sometimes. You are human, we are all. But don't let one day override the
> good days.
>
> Glad to see that you had a time with your family, because that always
> gives you a strong support. And new energy to keep the work going.
>
> I, as many others, are very proud about the way Pharo is going. Pharo is
> also an important and strategic part of many new project and business.
> This is something we are very grateful. To you and every other people
> involved with Pharo some way.
>
> A big thank you all. We are commited to Pharo and we will follow
> contributing to it as we can, even little things.
>
> Respect to Squeak, I seriously began to write a reply to the mail from
> Andreas announcing the removal of Etoys, I was absolutely enraged. Not
> because the change itself that has evident technical merits but for the
> absolutely lack of seriousness and touch from Andreas.
> Lets be clear, I have lost my respect for him, why?, because he isn't a
> leader. He is pushing Squeak to where he wants. It is his own Squeak. He
> stated before, and even fought several times with people that suggested
> that etoys should be removed from squeak, that etoys is a fundamental
> distinctive, unseparated part of squeak, to the point that squeak
> without etoys isn't squeak. Similar bad karma for him for burning Stef
> et al for criticized the way that Squeak was being at the time, for
> burning Keith and installing his own process (that if you review the
> commit logs, just half dozen of people are actively using to commit to
> trunk). Then he goes and does everything that several people told it
> that must be done as if were a novice idea. As if the opinion of others
> weren't worth. But when he implements the very same idea, then it is the
> logical next step for Squeak and the change that Squeak was waiting for.
> This really irritates me. Besides, when I asked what are the middle-term
> and long-term goals for squeak they said that there was no one. And that
> appears to be right. The changes respond to mood of Andreas and are more
> than random without a previous stated plan. The plan is created day to
> day, depending of the desires of Andreas.
> In the end I discarded the mail. It didn't worth the time. I let it
> rest.
> Honestly I don't know how the board will support this random change
> occurring in Squeak. The board can barely state that their only goal
> right now, and in fact the full last year was to be comply with the SFC
> requirements. Now, de facto, the goals are minimal kernel with a mixture
> of cuis + mc + m17n, everything unloadable, no etoys, new text editor,
> new trails for changes files, and a lot of small changes that I suppose
> are trying to speed up the image. But the board can't show a list of
> goals. All or most of this changes, made, approved, selected and decided
> by a single person. What if tomorrow some organization offers some
> unrefusable amount to Andreas to let Squeak behind and go to work in X.
> What will happen to current Andreas' Squeak? Who nows? Not even the
> board.
>
> Well that was some of the feelings I wanted to express to the squeak
> list and opted not to. But now, with your mail, I must say that I can
> imagine what you must felt. Not only anger, but sad. A deep sad at
> watching this happen. So sad to see so many intelligent people forget so
> easily the previous and exhausting discussions. Well, Stef I support you
> and the full Pharo people. This community is more honest and more
> humble. That worths a lot for me.
>
> So, don't let yourself down.
> We are a great and heterogeneous community. We can do it.
>
> Cheers
>
> --
> Miguel Cobá
> http://miguel.leugim.com.mx
>
>
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> On Thu, Jan 07, 2010 at 08:23:02AM +0200, Danie Roux wrote:
> > 2010/1/7 Miguel Enrique Cob? Martinez:
> >
> > > Respect to Squeak, I seriously began to write a reply to the mail from
> > > Andreas announcing the removal of Etoys
> >
> > Are you referring to this message:
> > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2010-January/142974.html?
> >
> > The one that states "... I finished the first round on making Etoys
> > package *reloadable* in trunk" (emphasis mine).
> >
> > That is not the same as removal to me?
>
> Right. Miguel, perhaps you misunderstand. Etoys and other packages
> are being made reloadable. Clean, reloadable packages are a goal
> that we all share, and IMO the work in Squeak and Pharo will be
> complimentary and helpful to all in the long run. In the case of
> Squeak, one of the goals is to be able to provide better support
> for Etoys. Making a reloadable Etoys package is an important step
> in that direction.
>

> Miguel Enrique Cobá Martinez wrote:
>> Anyway, my mail was to support the work of Stef and the Pharo team and
>> not to start a flame about Squeak. So let this rest now.
>
> Best to let it rest. The past can't be changed, but the future is in the
> hands of each fork.
>
> There may be similarities along the way, amongst the different forks.
> Shrinking the core image and reloadable packages is likely common to all
> forks - ideally, we'd all arrive at the same core. But there are
> differences too, in the goals of each fork, not just personality
> differences.
>
> Some may feel that energies are wasted with the forks. Probably they're
> right. The question is whether or not the wasted energies can be
> afforded. If multiple forks can draw more resources in total, to offset
> the extra energies expended, then everyone is ahead. It's not clear yet
> whether the overall Squeak/Pharo/Seaside community is growing, and
> whether that would be because of the fork or not.
>
> Also, a little friendly competition, does seem to motivate and inspire
> people.
>
> --
> Yanni
>
>
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> yeap
> let's move on now I'm steady mode :)
>
> Stef
>
> On Jan 7, 2010, at 6:43 PM, Yanni Chiu wrote:
>
>> Miguel Enrique Cobá Martinez wrote:
>>> Anyway, my mail was to support the work of Stef and the Pharo team and
>>> not to start a flame about Squeak. So let this rest now.
>>
>> Best to let it rest. The past can't be changed, but the future is in the
>> hands of each fork.
>>
>> There may be similarities along the way, amongst the different forks.
>> Shrinking the core image and reloadable packages is likely common to all
>> forks - ideally, we'd all arrive at the same core. But there are
>> differences too, in the goals of each fork, not just personality
>> differences.
>>
>> Some may feel that energies are wasted with the forks. Probably they're
>> right. The question is whether or not the wasted energies can be
>> afforded. If multiple forks can draw more resources in total, to offset
>> the extra energies expended, then everyone is ahead. It's not clear yet
>> whether the overall Squeak/Pharo/Seaside community is growing, and
>> whether that would be because of the fork or not.
>>
>> Also, a little friendly competition, does seem to motivate and inspire
>> people.
>>
>> --
>> Yanni
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Pharo-project mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
>
>
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