About open lively community vs a closed, withdrawn group of programmers

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About open lively community vs a closed, withdrawn group of programmers

Simon Denier-3

Through Laurent Laffont's tweet 7:47 PM Sep 23rd

Worth the read: "Leaving .net"

--
 Simon




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Re: About open lively community vs a closed, withdrawn group of programmers

Igor Stasenko
2010/9/29 Simon Denier <[hidden email]>:
>
> Through Laurent Laffont's tweet 7:47 PM Sep 23rd
> Worth the read: "Leaving .net"
> http://whatupdave.tumblr.com/post/1170718843/leaving-net

This reminds me myself, before i joined wonderful smalltalk community :)

> --
>  Simon
>
>
>
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--
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Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

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Re: About open lively community vs a closed, withdrawn group of programmers

Stéphane Ducasse
In reply to this post by Simon Denier-3
> Through Laurent Laffont's tweet 7:47 PM Sep 23rd
>> Worth the read: "Leaving .net"
>> http://whatupdave.tumblr.com/post/1170718843/leaving-net
>
> This reminds me myself, before i joined wonderful smalltalk community :)

Sorry to be a pain in the back but when I see our current state of practices
at the level of continuous integration as a community (not talking just about pharo/squeak) we are not that great.
It will change but we took years to backlog.
Something sad for me was to see that in VW been agile was just having the XProgramming/TestCase
class (I know that they know what I think :)). Been agile means a lot more.
Autotest, hudson, better tools, better debugger, code coverage..... this is what we need.

Stef


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Re: About open lively community vs a closed, withdrawn group of programmers

Igor Stasenko
On 29 September 2010 23:36, Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> Through Laurent Laffont's tweet 7:47 PM Sep 23rd
>>> Worth the read: "Leaving .net"
>>> http://whatupdave.tumblr.com/post/1170718843/leaving-net
>>
>> This reminds me myself, before i joined wonderful smalltalk community :)
>
> Sorry to be a pain in the back but when I see our current state of practices
> at the level of continuous integration as a community (not talking just about pharo/squeak) we are not that great.
> It will change but we took years to backlog.
> Something sad for me was to see that in VW been agile was just having the XProgramming/TestCase
> class (I know that they know what I think :)). Been agile means a lot more.
> Autotest, hudson, better tools, better debugger, code coverage..... this is what we need.
>

No, but we are working together towards improving our system.
This is what you can't have in .net and/or java where community don't
have a chance to participate in development
process, but have to wait till vendor release new version, and then
start using it.

> Stef
>
>
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> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
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--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

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Re: About open lively community vs a closed, withdrawn group of programmers

George Herolyants-3
2010/9/30 Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]>:
> No, but we are working together towards improving our system.
> This is what you can't have in .net and/or java where community don't
> have a chance to participate in development
> process, but have to wait till vendor release new version, and then
> start using it.

Yes. But it relates mostly to .NET because MS aggressively tries to
substitute all the open source libraries with their own "standard"
ones (XML, ORM, even unit testing!). But in Java world the situation
is a bit different. While users can't affect the language itself, the
community makes plenty of libraries just to compensate the poorness of
the language. And Sun (now Oracle) does not bother itself with
inventing their own.

I think the difference between these communities and Smalltalk
community results from the nature of Smalltalk language where you can
implement some system functionality as a library, while in other
lanugages this would require changes made by vendor in the core.


George

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Re: About open lively community vs a closed, withdrawn group of programmers

Stéphane Ducasse
In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse
true !

>>>> No, but we are working together towards improving our system.
> This is what you can't have in .net and/or java where community don't
> have a chance to participate in development
> process, but have to wait till vendor release new version, and then
> start using it.
>

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Re: About open lively community vs a closed, withdrawn group of programmers

Igor Stasenko
In reply to this post by George Herolyants-3
On 30 September 2010 10:32, George Herolyants
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> 2010/9/30 Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]>:
>> No, but we are working together towards improving our system.
>> This is what you can't have in .net and/or java where community don't
>> have a chance to participate in development
>> process, but have to wait till vendor release new version, and then
>> start using it.
>
> Yes. But it relates mostly to .NET because MS aggressively tries to
> substitute all the open source libraries with their own "standard"
> ones (XML, ORM, even unit testing!). But in Java world the situation
> is a bit different. While users can't affect the language itself, the
> community makes plenty of libraries just to compensate the poorness of
> the language. And Sun (now Oracle) does not bother itself with
> inventing their own.
>
> I think the difference between these communities and Smalltalk
> community results from the nature of Smalltalk language where you can
> implement some system functionality as a library, while in other
> lanugages this would require changes made by vendor in the core.
>

Right. And this is done by intent to keep you hooked, so vendor makes sure
that there will be buyers of new product releases, because of 'this
will be fixed in new version' motto.

I think it is ok for end-user products, where you not expecting users
to write own programs,
but for development tools & libraries, i think this is unacceptable.

>
> George
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
>



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Best regards,
Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

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Re: About open lively community vs a closed, withdrawn group of programmers

George Herolyants-3
I agree.

2010/9/30 Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]>:
> Right. And this is done by intent to keep you hooked, so vendor makes sure
> that there will be buyers of new product releases, because of 'this
> will be fixed in new version' motto.
>
> I think it is ok for end-user products, where you not expecting users
> to write own programs,
> but for development tools & libraries, i think this is unacceptable.

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Re: About open lively community vs a closed, withdrawn group of programmers

Alexandre Bergel
In reply to this post by George Herolyants-3
> While users can't affect the language itself

This is not quite true. The Pizza Java extension about generics is now part of Java. Pizza is the first implementation of Java Generics. Pizza has been formulated with the EPFL.

Cheers,
Alexandre
--
_,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
Alexandre Bergel  http://www.bergel.eu
^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.






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Re: About open lively community vs a closed, withdrawn group of programmers

Marcus Denker-4
In reply to this post by George Herolyants-3

On Sep 30, 2010, at 2:33 PM, Alexandre Bergel wrote:

>> While users can't affect the language itself
>
> This is not quite true. The Pizza Java extension about generics is now part of Java. Pizza is the first implementation of Java Generics.

As far as I remember, Pizza Generics were different to what is now in Java. And it added more than just Generics.
|The Pizza language is an extension to Java with three new features:
|- Generics (aka Parametric polymorphism)
|- Function pointers (aka First-class functions)
|- Class cases and pattern matching (aka Algebraic types)

Generic Java then was a subset with just the Generics.  And that inspired the Generics in Java.

And it took how long and how much pain to do that? I think people nearly got crazy over the whole thing.
Both Martin Odersky  and Gilad Bracha gave up on Java over this, kind of. (Scala just uses the JVM, Newspeak not even that for good
reasons).

Not really a success story for how one can influence Java, the language. Quite the opposite.

> Pizza has been formulated with the EPFL.
>
Pizza was started when Martin Odersky was a C3 Prof (assistant-prof) at the University of Karlsruhe... this was when I started
to study there. A looong time ago. 1996?

        Marcus

--
Marcus Denker  -- http://www.marcusdenker.de
INRIA Lille -- Nord Europe. Team RMoD.


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Re: About open lively community vs a closed, withdrawn group of programmers

Alexandre Bergel
Yep

Alexandre


On 30 Sep 2010, at 08:49, Marcus Denker wrote:

>
> On Sep 30, 2010, at 2:33 PM, Alexandre Bergel wrote:
>
>>> While users can't affect the language itself
>>
>> This is not quite true. The Pizza Java extension about generics is now part of Java. Pizza is the first implementation of Java Generics.
>
> As far as I remember, Pizza Generics were different to what is now in Java. And it added more than just Generics.
> |The Pizza language is an extension to Java with three new features:
> |- Generics (aka Parametric polymorphism)
> |- Function pointers (aka First-class functions)
> |- Class cases and pattern matching (aka Algebraic types)
>
> Generic Java then was a subset with just the Generics.  And that inspired the Generics in Java.
>
> And it took how long and how much pain to do that? I think people nearly got crazy over the whole thing.
> Both Martin Odersky  and Gilad Bracha gave up on Java over this, kind of. (Scala just uses the JVM, Newspeak not even that for good
> reasons).
>
> Not really a success story for how one can influence Java, the language. Quite the opposite.
>
>> Pizza has been formulated with the EPFL.
>>
> Pizza was started when Martin Odersky was a C3 Prof (assistant-prof) at the University of Karlsruhe... this was when I started
> to study there. A looong time ago. 1996?
>
> Marcus
>
> --
> Marcus Denker  -- http://www.marcusdenker.de
> INRIA Lille -- Nord Europe. Team RMoD.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

--
_,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
Alexandre Bergel  http://www.bergel.eu
^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.






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