About open lively community vs a closed, withdrawn group of programmers

> --
>  Simon
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>> Through Laurent Laffont's tweet 7:47 PM Sep 23rd
>>> Worth the read: "Leaving .net"
>>> http://whatupdave.tumblr.com/post/1170718843/leaving-net
>>
>> This reminds me myself, before i joined wonderful smalltalk community :)
>
> Sorry to be a pain in the back but when I see our current state of practices
> at the level of continuous integration as a community (not talking just about pharo/squeak) we are not that great.
> It will change but we took years to backlog.
> Something sad for me was to see that in VW been agile was just having the XProgramming/TestCase
> class (I know that they know what I think :)). Been agile means a lot more.
> Autotest, hudson, better tools, better debugger, code coverage..... this is what we need.
>

> 2010/9/30 Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]>:
>> No, but we are working together towards improving our system.
>> This is what you can't have in .net and/or java where community don't
>> have a chance to participate in development
>> process, but have to wait till vendor release new version, and then
>> start using it.
>
> Yes. But it relates mostly to .NET because MS aggressively tries to
> substitute all the open source libraries with their own "standard"
> ones (XML, ORM, even unit testing!). But in Java world the situation
> is a bit different. While users can't affect the language itself, the
> community makes plenty of libraries just to compensate the poorness of
> the language. And Sun (now Oracle) does not bother itself with
> inventing their own.
>
> I think the difference between these communities and Smalltalk
> community results from the nature of Smalltalk language where you can
> implement some system functionality as a library, while in other
> lanugages this would require changes made by vendor in the core.
>

>
> On Sep 30, 2010, at 2:33 PM, Alexandre Bergel wrote:
>
>>> While users can't affect the language itself
>>
>> This is not quite true. The Pizza Java extension about generics is now part of Java. Pizza is the first implementation of Java Generics.
>
> As far as I remember, Pizza Generics were different to what is now in Java. And it added more than just Generics.
> |The Pizza language is an extension to Java with three new features:
> |- Generics (aka Parametric polymorphism)
> |- Function pointers (aka First-class functions)
> |- Class cases and pattern matching (aka Algebraic types)
>
> Generic Java then was a subset with just the Generics.  And that inspired the Generics in Java.
>
> And it took how long and how much pain to do that? I think people nearly got crazy over the whole thing.
> Both Martin Odersky  and Gilad Bracha gave up on Java over this, kind of. (Scala just uses the JVM, Newspeak not even that for good
> reasons).
>
> Not really a success story for how one can influence Java, the language. Quite the opposite.
>
>> Pizza has been formulated with the EPFL.
>>
> Pizza was started when Martin Odersky was a C3 Prof (assistant-prof) at the University of Karlsruhe... this was when I started
> to study there. A looong time ago. 1996?
>
> Marcus
>
> --
> Marcus Denker  -- http://www.marcusdenker.de
> INRIA Lille -- Nord Europe. Team RMoD.
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