Additional Divider in Pharo menu

> On 4 Jul 2019, at 20:36, Torsten Bergmann <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> around 20 days ago the order of menu items in the Pharo world menu were munged up in the standard Pharo 8
> image for whatever reasons. "Safe" was on first position and not grouped with other "Save ..." items anymore as it was
> in the past. This was noted by Alexandre Bergel and others on Discord.
>
> I fixed the order in the following PULL REQUEST https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/pull/3529
> with the menu ending up looking like this:
>
>  !--------------------
>  ! SETTINGS
>  !--------------------
>  ! SAVE
>  ! SAVE AS
>  ! SAVE AND QUIT
>  !--------------------
>  ! QUIT
>  !--------------------
>
> having added by intention an additional divider between
> - the more safe options to store the image (secure)
> - the unsafe quit where one can loose changes in the image (insecure if you just quit)
>
> I know that "SAVE AND QUIT" and "QUIT" also might belong somehow together as both exit the image
> - but  the diver should separate the more secure options from the more insecure options.
>
>
> Now today the divider was removed again using https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/pull/3738
> from Cyril Ferlicot mentioning it as "unwanted" - so now the menu looks like this:
>
>  !--------------------
>  ! SETTINGS
>  !--------------------
>  ! SAVE
>  ! SAVE AS
>  ! SAVE AND QUIT
>  ! QUIT
>  !--------------------
>
> as it was back in Pharo 7.
>
> As I'm someone who is mousing around very quickly in the past it often happened to me that while I wanted to
> really "SAVE AND QUIT" I hit accidentally the "QUIT" button directly below - leaving me in a state where I had
> to recover or reapplying changes afterwards.
>
> So using the additonal divider between the three "safe my data" options and the "just leave" was intentional and to
> me makes some sense: from the point of view of grouping, visually and from clicking behavior.
>
> I guess Cyril Ferlicot wanted to restore how it looked in Pharo 7 or had other reasons why he prefers the menu to
> look like in the second picture.
>
> I know it is not a big thing - but nonetheless: It would be good if others could write which option
>
>  a) WITH DIVIDER (as in first picture to separate safe from unsafe options) or
>  b) WITHOUT DIVIDER (as in second picture to stay like it was back in Pharo 7)
>
> they really prefer so we can decide on a community / voters base.
>
> Thx and sorry for the ASCII art
> T.
>
>

>
> Hi,
>
> around 20 days ago the order of menu items in the Pharo world menu were munged up in the standard Pharo 8
> image for whatever reasons. "Safe" was on first position and not grouped with other "Save ..." items anymore as it was
> in the past. This was noted by Alexandre Bergel and others on Discord.
>
> I fixed the order in the following PULL REQUEST https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/pull/3529
> with the menu ending up looking like this:
>
>   !--------------------
>   ! SETTINGS
>   !--------------------
>   ! SAVE
>   ! SAVE AS
>   ! SAVE AND QUIT
>   !--------------------
>   ! QUIT
>   !--------------------
>
> having added by intention an additional divider between
>  - the more safe options to store the image (secure)
>  - the unsafe quit where one can loose changes in the image (insecure if you just quit)
>
> I know that "SAVE AND QUIT" and "QUIT" also might belong somehow together as both exit the image
> - but  the diver should separate the more secure options from the more insecure options.
>
>
> Now today the divider was removed again using https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/pull/3738
> from Cyril Ferlicot mentioning it as "unwanted" - so now the menu looks like this:
>
>   !--------------------
>   ! SETTINGS
>   !--------------------
>   ! SAVE
>   ! SAVE AS
>   ! SAVE AND QUIT
>   ! QUIT
>   !--------------------
>
> as it was back in Pharo 7.
>
> As I'm someone who is mousing around very quickly in the past it often happened to me that while I wanted to
> really "SAVE AND QUIT" I hit accidentally the "QUIT" button directly below - leaving me in a state where I had
> to recover or reapplying changes afterwards.
>
> So using the additonal divider between the three "safe my data" options and the "just leave" was intentional and to
> me makes some sense: from the point of view of grouping, visually and from clicking behavior.
>
> I guess Cyril Ferlicot wanted to restore how it looked in Pharo 7 or had other reasons why he prefers the menu to
> look like in the second picture.
>
> I know it is not a big thing - but nonetheless: It would be good if others could write which option
>
>   a) WITH DIVIDER (as in first picture to separate safe from unsafe options) or
>   b) WITHOUT DIVIDER (as in second picture to stay like it was back in Pharo 7)

>
> On Thu, 4 Jul 2019 at 19:37, Torsten Bergmann <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > around 20 days ago the order of menu items in the Pharo world menu were munged up in the standard Pharo 8
> > image for whatever reasons. "Safe" was on first position and not grouped with other "Save ..." items anymore as it was
> > in the past. This was noted by Alexandre Bergel and others on Discord.
> >
> > I fixed the order in the following PULL REQUEST https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/pull/3529
> > with the menu ending up looking like this:
> >
> >   !--------------------
> >   ! SETTINGS
> >   !--------------------
> >   ! SAVE
> >   ! SAVE AS
> >   ! SAVE AND QUIT
> >   !--------------------
> >   ! QUIT
> >   !--------------------
> >
> > having added by intention an additional divider between
> >  - the more safe options to store the image (secure)
> >  - the unsafe quit where one can loose changes in the image (insecure if you just quit)
> >
> > I know that "SAVE AND QUIT" and "QUIT" also might belong somehow together as both exit the image
> > - but  the diver should separate the more secure options from the more insecure options.
> >
> >
> > Now today the divider was removed again using https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/pull/3738
> > from Cyril Ferlicot mentioning it as "unwanted" - so now the menu looks like this:
> >
> >   !--------------------
> >   ! SETTINGS
> >   !--------------------
> >   ! SAVE
> >   ! SAVE AS
> >   ! SAVE AND QUIT
> >   ! QUIT
> >   !--------------------
> >
> > as it was back in Pharo 7.
> >
> > As I'm someone who is mousing around very quickly in the past it often happened to me that while I wanted to
> > really "SAVE AND QUIT" I hit accidentally the "QUIT" button directly below - leaving me in a state where I had
> > to recover or reapplying changes afterwards.
> >
> > So using the additonal divider between the three "safe my data" options and the "just leave" was intentional and to
> > me makes some sense: from the point of view of grouping, visually and from clicking behavior.
> >
> > I guess Cyril Ferlicot wanted to restore how it looked in Pharo 7 or had other reasons why he prefers the menu to
> > look like in the second picture.
> >
> > I know it is not a big thing - but nonetheless: It would be good if others could write which option
> >
> >   a) WITH DIVIDER (as in first picture to separate safe from unsafe options) or
> >   b) WITHOUT DIVIDER (as in second picture to stay like it was back in Pharo 7)
>
> Separating dangerous options from the safe options seems a good idea -
> Both for physical jitter and also cognitively.
> Even though Quit presents a confirmation dialog, I've had
> cognitive-fails clicking YES instead of NO**.
> so WITH DIVIDER + 1
>
> Further, I personally use Save much more often than Settings.
> I'd prefer Save on the top line and Settings above Quit
> I advocated this prior to midway through Pharo 7 but got no response.
> It would provide even greater separation.
>
> Some Settings menu-item placement examples...
> https://www.top-password.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/chrome-menu.png
> https://ntopology.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/FileMenu.png
> https://ggnome.com/wiki/images/d/d6/FileMenuWin.png
> https://www.mozenda.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/AgentBuilder-File-Settings-CursorHighlight-Arrow-274x300.png
>
> cheers -ben
>
>
> **P.S.  I'm generally opposed to YES/NO buttons.  Its easy to invert
> logic when your in a hurry.
> A confirmation dialog QUIT/STAY is much more explicit.
> Rule #1 ==> https://uxmovement.com/buttons/5-rules-for-choosing-the-right-words-on-button-labels/
>