Aida/Scribo vs. Seaside/Pier vs. Zope/Plone ...

Hello,

I am exploring my CMS web development options.

I am currently strongly considering Seaside/Pier, but also am looking at
Zope/Plone.

I much prefer Smalltalk (Squeak) to Python. But Zope/Plone is a very
strong CMS with a tremendous feature set.

I very much like the idea of clean, readable URLs verses the Seaside type.

I would love to know if it is desired for Aida/Scribo to at some point
in the future to be able to compare favorably featurewise to the array
of CMSes available, including things like Zope/Plone, Joomla or even
SharePoint?

In other words what is the vision for Aida/Scribo?

Currently Seaside has the most Smalltalk mindshare. But it isn't without
issues. Some objective, some subjective.

How does Aida/Scribo compare to Seaside's strengths.

ie: things like the ability to embed the same component multiple times
in a single page without conflicts, each acting independently, etc.

Have you listened to the interview with Avi at http://www.twit.tv/floss21 .

Any input on how Aida/Scribo compares to the features admired in the
interview about Seaside?

Basically I would just love an idea of the vision for Aida/Scribo. Where
you would like it to go. What you would like to be if a community
developed around it sufficiently to carry out a nice vision. ((Not
stating any certain size community in particular. Might already be there?))

Thanks for any insight you are able or willing to provide.

Jimmie

Hi Jimmie,

Jimmie Houchin wrote:

> I am exploring my CMS web development options.
>
> I am currently strongly considering Seaside/Pier, but also am looking at
> Zope/Plone.
>
> I much prefer Smalltalk (Squeak) to Python. But Zope/Plone is a very
> strong CMS with a tremendous feature set.

I agree.

> I very much like the idea of clean, readable URLs verses the Seaside type.

That's actually main Aida strength, not only comparing to Seaside but
other frameworks too. Aida supports REST-like, bookmarkable and nice
looking Urls, right from the start because Url management is inserted
deeply in Aida philosophy and architecture. And that's what the Web is
anyway, Url's (hyperlinks) are the main idea behind the Web!
>
> I would love to know if it is desired for Aida/Scribo to at some point
> in the future to be able to compare favorably featurewise to the array
> of CMSes available, including things like Zope/Plone, Joomla or even
> SharePoint?

I don't think that feature rich CMS is achievable goal for any Smalltalk
CMS offering because of relatively small community, on the contrary, we
need to explore our main advantage as much as possible: Smalltalk itself
and its strengths, like dealing with complexity, extensibility and
maintainability.

So, let we have basic features available on our CMS while anything else
can be easily achievable with help of Smalltalk programming. That way we
can compete easily, on "featuritis" definitively not!

I recently had an experience with Joomla guys and they really have a
huge number of modules to choose. But even with all that choice you
usually don't find exactly what you need and then you are stuck. I saw
that it is really hard to extend any their module to suit your needs.
Again, here is our strength!

 > In other words what is the vision for Aida/Scribo?

Good question! And good opportunity to think about vision. Let me try:

Vision of Aida/Scribo is to explore all strengths of both Smalltalk and
Aida/Web to produce a really useful and extensible CMS. By competing to
others not with big number of rigid features but with Smalltalk
extensibility and maintainability as the main feature.

Sounds as a vision? :)

> Currently Seaside has the most Smalltalk mindshare. But it isn't without
> issues. Some objective, some subjective.
>
> How does Aida/Scribo compare to Seaside's strengths.

> ie: things like the ability to embed the same component multiple times
> in a single page without conflicts, each acting independently, etc.

Component model in Aida is different but sure, you can add standalone
components on your page as you wish. What we are currently doing is
extending a component model with strong ajaxification, so that you
component can really act independently on the page, from updating to
posting, Comet-like refreshing etc. One already included component is a
WebGrid which you can see in action here:
http://demo.aidaweb.si/demos.html?view=grid

> Have you listened to the interview with Avi at http://www.twit.tv/floss21 .

Yep

> Any input on how Aida/Scribo compares to the features admired in the
> interview about Seaside?

Please ask more exactly, feature by feature, this will help me to answer
a lot.

> Basically I would just love an idea of the vision for Aida/Scribo. Where
> you would like it to go. What you would like to be if a community
> developed around it sufficiently to carry out a nice vision. ((Not
> stating any certain size community in particular. Might already be there?))

First, Scribo is non-existent yet :) Better said, not yet open-sourced
and named as such. I'm just opening and separating a core CMS
functionality from my commercial product BiArt, which was at beginning
used for support for ISO9000 quality systems, and later evolved to more
general document/record management. And once upon a time I tried to make
Wiki on top of it and it was just so simple. Then I started to think
about to extend it even more to CMS like system and make it to run sites
like http://www.swazoo.org and http://www.aidaweb.si. Again this was
simple extension.

And then came Nicolas to develop a blog on top of Aida, and he came from
Seaside actually, just because of Urls (Nicolas, c'est vrai?) This was a
turning moment for me to finally finish open-sourcing CMS so that it can
be merged with Nicolas's blog. And thanks to him we have also a name:
Scribo :)

So, that's a history of Scribo so far. As you can see this is an
evolving history and I hope that it will evolve in the future even more
to something really useful for a Smalltalk community and later maybe
even broader.

I see Aida/Scribo especially strong in supporting general websites,
which need to be simple and easily editable, but can be later extended
to much more complex ones, with on-line apps of many kinds. Namely, this
is quite often pattern: people starts with simple one page website,
which starts evolving and through the time it ends up as a really
complex one. Smalltalk is just perfect for such evolution, isn't it?

I hope I answered a bit to your questions. Please, come out with more :)

Best regards
JAnko


--
Janko Miv?ek
AIDA/Web
Smalltalk Web Application Server
http://www.aidaweb.si

Janko Miv?ek wrote:
> Hi Jimmie,

Hello Janko,

Thank you for your reply.

I want to thank for the time you are taking to read and reply to these
messages. I just want you to know that there isn't a right or wrong
answer per se to my questions. I am just seeking information to make a
decision between Pier and/or Scribo.

Seaside/Pier offer some fantastic benefits. But at a cost. Memory use,
speed, and ugly urls. :)

What I don't know is if Aida/Web/Scribo can match some of those benefits
in a different manner. Or if that is just one of the benefits and wins
in using Seaside verses a more traditional approach.

Neither is necessarily right or wrong. Just different and the better
informed a user can be, the better the decision can be made.

So again, many thanks for the time to provide the Aida answers to the
distinguishing features of Seaside. And if Aida's answer is we don't do
that, we provide other benefits and costs. Then that is ok.

Eventually I think it would be good for you to distill some of these
comparitive questions and answers into a page on the website. As
Smalltalk, Squeak, Seaside, Aida, Gemstone, GLASS, VW, etc. become
better known and explored by others. These questions will be asked by
those who have seen the Seaside press before learning about
Aida/Web/Scribo. They will want to know, why should I choose Aida and
not Seaside.

I myself am undecided between the too. This is why I ask the questions
and am trying to decide if the features of Seaside outweigh the costs
for what I want.

So I need to know what Seaside offers that Aida doesn't.
Or vice versa. :)

:)

Too a certain extent I agree. However, with sufficient strengths and
features I think we can grow the community to a reasonable and
sustainable level.

I also think I that we, the Smalltalk CMS community, need to define what
a feature rich CMS is. We don't need to let the other guys define it for
us. :)

As a long time Mac user, (but currently using Ubuntu on a Dell laptop
because it is more affordable :), I see it somewhat as the difference in
the way a PC (Windows) user and a Mac user see things.

The PC user says look at all the apps we have. Look at all the apps you
don't.  I as a Mac user, say, I only need one good word processor, not
one hundred poor ones.

Then there is the MSWord vs. something qualified, sufficient and simpler
analogy.

I would rather us be the Mac and the qualified, sufficient and simpler
solution. But we do have to be just that, qualified, sufficient and simpler.

> So, let we have basic features available on our CMS while anything else
> can be easily achievable with help of Smalltalk programming. That way we
> can compete easily, on "featuritis" definitively not!

Here the question is where do we draw the lines between basic features
and featuritis?

What is the sufficient feature set for a CMS?
I believe the simpler part is simply built into the Smalltalk language
and worldview.

I think an excellent foundation and an excellent out-of-the-box (ootb)
experience for simple use cases is essential.

I believe that for the non-developer, simple use-case, ootb experience
that Squeak+ ?CMS should and could provide a better experience than the
other solutions. And should that person need to go a little deeper, they
should be able to.

http://oodt.jpl.nasa.gov/better-web-app.mov

Is good press for Plone. Smalltalk CMS should be able to equal and
better his ootb experience.

> I recently had an experience with Joomla guys and they really have a
> huge number of modules to choose. But even with all that choice you
> usually don't find exactly what you need and then you are stuck. I saw
> that it is really hard to extend any their module to suit your needs.
> Again, here is our strength!

I agree. They have the PC mentality. 7 blogs, 4 wikis, 5 forums, ... to
choose from. (*** random numbers).  Give me one of each, well done,
thank you. And a better more agile development process.

That is the problem, I see in Plone also. If you have to get past an
out-of-the-box solution. You have a lot of work on your hands. I also
see the pain they have when upgrading one of their "products" from one
version to the next. Yuck!

This is exactly why I have been extremely cautious about using Plone.
Much of what they do in http://www.plone4artists.org is what I want in a
website I am currently building.

But the thought is always in my head, that what
Squeak/Seaside/Aida/Pier/Scribo/... don't have that Plone4Artists does,
I can build easier than I can build what neither have in Plone. I hope
that is understandable. :)

Getting there. :)

Example for Seaside is the multi-counter app.
http://www.seaside.st/about/examples/multicounter

How easily can Aida/Web, do something similar?

>> Have you listened to the interview with Avi at http://www.twit.tv/floss21 .
>
> Yep
>
>> Any input on how Aida/Scribo compares to the features admired in the
>> interview about Seaside?
>
> Please ask more exactly, feature by feature, this will help me to answer
> a lot.

I was afraid that was to vague. :)

*State management.

*Seaside's naming of form elements.

*Hidden form fields, data in URLs, etc.

*Control flow

Yes and many thanks.

Any kind of time-line or idea an initial version of Aida/Scribo will be
available? A very rough estimate is ok.

The better you can express your vision. What distinguishes
Aida/Web/Scribo as a platform. The easier it will be for those with like
visions to become a part of the AWS community.

To use a common expression in business and used often in the Plone
community. What is your story? The Plone community asks themselves this
often. What is our story for document management? How can we improve our
story? ...

Any way, regardless of whether or not I choose AWS. I hope these
questions provide you with some insight into improving your story. And
helping you to tell it better and gain those like-minded people who can
help you improve the story for AWS. :)
Thanks.

Jimmie