Aida Wish List

This is good idea, let we open an Aida SPM and a Wish list page there.
Also we need to make a nice inter-site registration process for a single
logon as well.

> * Swazoo/Scribo Morphic Console (Myself developing, by now the working
> version is http://scribo.aidaweb.si/repository/scribo-console-gsa.5.mcz)

This is important as a small step towards more user friendliness of
forthcoming Scribo, because usability is currently our main goal for
next beta.

> * Magritte integration

Not really integration but support in a separate package, which you
start using when your problem became really so complex to justify
introducing Magritte. By default we don't need it. We need to keep Aida
and Scribo simple, because we have just too big advantage here.

In my opinion Pier fate is such just because they integrated Magritte
for a just too simple task for it. End result is excessive complexity in
front of the user, who in majority seeks just a simple CMS solution. We
need to approach such users with simplicity, but later let them choose
tools for more complex solutions as well. At that time Magritte came
into picture, IMO.

> * Some tools as SeaBreeze or SmallFaces.

I see so called Scaffolding as something we can introduce in Aida quite
easily for the start. Scaffoling means that with a tool you generate all
 stubs for your code, which is usually most boring and mundane task at
the start. Later you continue with normal development. See "Scaffolding
for GemStone" screencast about a tool made by Gerhard Obermann:

       http://vimeo.com/2231019

Tools like SeaBreeze are also to be considered, but such tools need to
be introduced carefully, we see just too many such visual tools which
after a big investment in development time failed at the end.

For instance, I don't see how SeaBreeze can deal with  component based
development, which is a cornerstone for both Aida and Seaside. If we'd
therfore go that way, we need to answer this question first, in advance.

> * Gemstone/Magma integration.

Aida is already ported to Gemstone while Scribo not yet. Magma is also
welcome, but it would be just nice if Magam would be ported to some
other dialect too. Otherwise it will have a hard time against up to 4GB
free Gemstone.

Hello all,

Just wanted to see what anyone thought of my latest idea, given that someone had already worked on a Morphic Interface to start and stop Aida.

How about a Morphic grid that allows you to relatively place your domain model attributes in them and set the type of WebElement you wanted to use to display the attribute, give it a label, etc...?

It would be quite useful for straightforward business apps, I think.  

Anyway, without starting a WebStyle war, it would be quite simple for these layouts to be "generated" since it would all be relative table placement, something Aida excels at.

At any rate, I was finally thinking about learning enough Morphic to take a stab at it in my spare time, and just wondered what anyone else thought.

Take care,

Rob

On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 8:08 AM, Germán Arduino <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Janko, list:

Well, my first motivation, more than the details of the points, was to point the need of have a "Wish List" somewhere. :)

About the details, some comments between your lines:

2008/11/18 Janko Mivšek <[hidden email]>

This is good idea, let we open an Aida SPM and a Wish list page there.
Also we need to make a nice inter-site registration process for a single
logon as well.

Fantastic!
 

> * Swazoo/Scribo Morphic Console (Myself developing, by now the working
> version is http://scribo.aidaweb.si/repository/scribo-console-gsa.5.mcz)

This is important as a small step towards more user friendliness of
forthcoming Scribo, because usability is currently our main goal for
next beta.

Well, I will continue developing as soon as I get a bit of free time. It's first on my open source to-do list priorities.

 

> * Magritte integration

Not really integration but support in a separate package, which you
start using when your problem became really so complex to justify
introducing Magritte. By default we don't need it. We need to keep Aida
and Scribo simple, because we have just too big advantage here.

In my opinion Pier fate is such just because they integrated Magritte
for a just too simple task for it. End result is excessive complexity in
front of the user, who in majority seeks just a simple CMS solution. We
need to approach such users with simplicity, but later let them choose
tools for more complex solutions as well. At that time Magritte came
into picture, IMO.

Ok, I understand your point. I was talking exactly about such thing: Non trivial applications.

 

> * Some tools as SeaBreeze or SmallFaces.

I see so called Scaffolding as something we can introduce in Aida quite
easily for the start. Scaffoling means that with a tool you generate all
 stubs for your code, which is usually most boring and mundane task at
the start. Later you continue with normal development. See "Scaffolding
for GemStone" screencast about a tool made by Gerhard Obermann:

       http://vimeo.com/2231019

Yes, I saw Scaffolding, look very interesting.
 

Tools like SeaBreeze are also to be considered, but such tools need to
be introduced carefully, we see just too many such visual tools which
after a big investment in development time failed at the end.

For instance, I don't see how SeaBreeze can deal with  component based
development, which is a cornerstone for both Aida and Seaside. If we'd
therfore go that way, we need to answer this question first, in advance.

Understand. I was pointing more that the functionality of SeaBreeze, tools that help to reduce the development time. A visual composition of (boring) things as tables, input texts, etc are ever useful imho.

 

> * Gemstone/Magma integration.

Aida is already ported to Gemstone while Scribo not yet. Magma is also
welcome, but it would be just nice if Magam would be ported to some
other dialect too. Otherwise it will have a hard time against up to 4GB
free Gemstone.

Very very good point. I was trying to establish priorities to focus the ever limited
free time to learn new things. Indeed with your comment, the first option is then Gemstone.

Cheers.
Germán.

_______________________________________________
Aida mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida

_______________________________________________
Aida mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida

Hi Rob:

Today we talked about this topic of Morphic on irc, and I tell my opinion that is really bad, complicated and time consuming.

I love Squeak, but....develop UI on Morphic is (to me at least) really a pain.

Trivial things as change attributes, align, etc need lot of time and really I would prefer to use such time on things more specfic of the domain and not with these things. And add the fact that the UI isn't that the most of users want to see on final users applications.

But, is what we've in these days on Squeak at dektop UI level.

Your idea is interesting to me.

Cheers.
Germán.

2008/11/18 Rob Rothwell <[hidden email]>

Hello all,

Just wanted to see what anyone thought of my latest idea, given that someone had already worked on a Morphic Interface to start and stop Aida.

How about a Morphic grid that allows you to relatively place your domain model attributes in them and set the type of WebElement you wanted to use to display the attribute, give it a label, etc...?

It would be quite useful for straightforward business apps, I think.  

Anyway, without starting a WebStyle war, it would be quite simple for these layouts to be "generated" since it would all be relative table placement, something Aida excels at.

At any rate, I was finally thinking about learning enough Morphic to take a stab at it in my spare time, and just wondered what anyone else thought.

Take care,

Rob

On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 8:08 AM, Germán Arduino <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Janko, list:

Well, my first motivation, more than the details of the points, was to point the need of have a "Wish List" somewhere. :)

About the details, some comments between your lines:

2008/11/18 Janko Mivšek <[hidden email]>

This is good idea, let we open an Aida SPM and a Wish list page there.
Also we need to make a nice inter-site registration process for a single
logon as well.

Fantastic!
 

> * Swazoo/Scribo Morphic Console (Myself developing, by now the working
> version is http://scribo.aidaweb.si/repository/scribo-console-gsa.5.mcz)

This is important as a small step towards more user friendliness of
forthcoming Scribo, because usability is currently our main goal for
next beta.

Well, I will continue developing as soon as I get a bit of free time. It's first on my open source to-do list priorities.

 

> * Magritte integration

Not really integration but support in a separate package, which you
start using when your problem became really so complex to justify
introducing Magritte. By default we don't need it. We need to keep Aida
and Scribo simple, because we have just too big advantage here.

In my opinion Pier fate is such just because they integrated Magritte
for a just too simple task for it. End result is excessive complexity in
front of the user, who in majority seeks just a simple CMS solution. We
need to approach such users with simplicity, but later let them choose
tools for more complex solutions as well. At that time Magritte came
into picture, IMO.

Ok, I understand your point. I was talking exactly about such thing: Non trivial applications.

 

> * Some tools as SeaBreeze or SmallFaces.

I see so called Scaffolding as something we can introduce in Aida quite
easily for the start. Scaffoling means that with a tool you generate all
 stubs for your code, which is usually most boring and mundane task at
the start. Later you continue with normal development. See "Scaffolding
for GemStone" screencast about a tool made by Gerhard Obermann:

       http://vimeo.com/2231019

Yes, I saw Scaffolding, look very interesting.
 

Tools like SeaBreeze are also to be considered, but such tools need to
be introduced carefully, we see just too many such visual tools which
after a big investment in development time failed at the end.

For instance, I don't see how SeaBreeze can deal with  component based
development, which is a cornerstone for both Aida and Seaside. If we'd
therfore go that way, we need to answer this question first, in advance.

Understand. I was pointing more that the functionality of SeaBreeze, tools that help to reduce the development time. A visual composition of (boring) things as tables, input texts, etc are ever useful imho.

 

> * Gemstone/Magma integration.

Aida is already ported to Gemstone while Scribo not yet. Magma is also
welcome, but it would be just nice if Magam would be ported to some
other dialect too. Otherwise it will have a hard time against up to 4GB
free Gemstone.

Very very good point. I was trying to establish priorities to focus the ever limited
free time to learn new things. Indeed with your comment, the first option is then Gemstone.

Cheers.
Germán.

_______________________________________________
Aida mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida

_______________________________________________
Aida mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida

Hi Rob,

I think you are looking for something like SeaBreeze then?

       http://seabreeze.heeg.de/?screenshots

The other thing which would be achieved even easier is a scaffolding support for Aida apps, to start with those mundane inital tasks fast, then polish your app to the final one.

Janko

Rob Rothwell wrote:

German,

I have never developed anything in Morphic yet, so I value anyone's opinion who has!  I wondered if Chris Muller's Maui would be a place to start, though, just to get something going.

I only thought of this because I am working with a product written in VW that is nothing short of an object based persistence solution built specifically to map ANY data source to the object model.

Anyway, they have a nice, simple little GUI that let's you map your domain attributes to a relative placement on the page, along with an interface for setting the various properties of the widgets.

I am NOT trying to add anything to Aida, but rather am toying around with the idea of building something on top of Aida, and was just looking for some intput!

Thanks,

Rob

On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 1:30 PM, Germán Arduino <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:

   Hi Rob:

   Today we talked about this topic of Morphic on irc, and I tell my
   opinion that is really bad, complicated and time consuming.

   I love Squeak, but....develop UI on Morphic is (to me at least)
   really a pain.

   Trivial things as change attributes, align, etc need lot of time and
   really I would prefer to use such time on things more specfic of the
   domain and not with these things. And add the fact that the UI isn't
   that the most of users want to see on final users applications.

   But, is what we've in these days on Squeak at dektop UI level.

   Your idea is interesting to me.

   Cheers.
   Germán.


   2008/11/18 Rob Rothwell <[hidden email]

   <mailto:[hidden email]>>

       Hello all,

       Just wanted to see what anyone thought of my latest idea, given
       that someone had already worked on a Morphic Interface to start
       and stop Aida.

       How about a Morphic grid that allows you to relatively place
       your domain model attributes in them and set the type of
       WebElement you wanted to use to display the attribute, give it a
       label, etc...?

       It would be quite useful for straightforward business apps, I
       think.  
       Anyway, without starting a WebStyle war, it would be quite
       simple for these layouts to be "generated" since it would all be
       relative table placement, something Aida excels at.

       At any rate, I was finally thinking about learning enough
       Morphic to take a stab at it in my spare time, and just wondered
       what anyone else thought.

       Take care,

       Rob

       On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 8:08 AM, Germán Arduino

       <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:

           Hi Janko, list:

           Well, my first motivation, more than the details of the
           points, was to point the need of have a "Wish List"
           somewhere. :)

           About the details, some comments between your lines:

           2008/11/18 Janko Mivšek <[hidden email]

           <mailto:[hidden email]>>

               This is good idea, let we open an Aida SPM and a Wish
               list page there.
               Also we need to make a nice inter-site registration
               process for a single
               logon as well.


           Fantastic!
           
                > * Swazoo/Scribo Morphic Console (Myself developing,
               by now the working
                > version is
               http://scribo.aidaweb.si/repository/scribo-console-gsa.5.mcz)


               This is important as a small step towards more user
               friendliness of
               forthcoming Scribo, because usability is currently our
               main goal for
               next beta.



           Well, I will continue developing as soon as I get a bit of
           free time. It's first on my open source to-do list priorities.

           

                > * Magritte integration

               Not really integration but support in a separate
               package, which you
               start using when your problem became really so complex
               to justify
               introducing Magritte. By default we don't need it. We
               need to keep Aida
               and Scribo simple, because we have just too big
               advantage here.

               In my opinion Pier fate is such just because they
               integrated Magritte
               for a just too simple task for it. End result is
               excessive complexity in
               front of the user, who in majority seeks just a simple
               CMS solution. We
               need to approach such users with simplicity, but later
               let them choose
               tools for more complex solutions as well. At that time
               Magritte came
               into picture, IMO.



           Ok, I understand your point. I was talking exactly about
           such thing: Non trivial applications.

           

                > * Some tools as SeaBreeze or SmallFaces.

               I see so called Scaffolding as something we can
               introduce in Aida quite
               easily for the start. Scaffoling means that with a tool
               you generate all
                stubs for your code, which is usually most boring and
               mundane task at
               the start. Later you continue with normal development.
               See "Scaffolding
               for GemStone" screencast about a tool made by Gerhard
               Obermann:

                      http://vimeo.com/2231019



           Yes, I saw Scaffolding, look very interesting.
           

               Tools like SeaBreeze are also to be considered, but such
               tools need to
               be introduced carefully, we see just too many such
               visual tools which
               after a big investment in development time failed at the
               end.

               For instance, I don't see how SeaBreeze can deal with
                component based
               development, which is a cornerstone for both Aida and
               Seaside. If we'd
               therfore go that way, we need to answer this question
               first, in advance.



           Understand. I was pointing more that the functionality of
           SeaBreeze, tools that help to reduce the development time. A
           visual composition of (boring) things as tables, input
           texts, etc are ever useful imho.

           

                > * Gemstone/Magma integration.

               Aida is already ported to Gemstone while Scribo not yet.
               Magma is also
               welcome, but it would be just nice if Magam would be
               ported to some
               other dialect too. Otherwise it will have a hard time
               against up to 4GB
               free Gemstone.



           Very very good point. I was trying to establish priorities
           to focus the ever limited
           free time to learn new things. Indeed with your comment, the
           first option is then Gemstone.

           Cheers.
           Germán.


           _______________________________________________
           Aida mailing list

           [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>

           http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida



       _______________________________________________
       Aida mailing list

       [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>

       http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida







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--
Janko Mivšek
AIDA/Web
Smalltalk Web Application Server
http://www.aidaweb.si