Alan Kay's EuroPython Keynote

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Alan Kay's EuroPython Keynote

Serge Stinckwich-4
There is a report of Guido Van Rossum about an Alan Kay talk in his web
log here : http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=167318



--                                                         oooo
Dr. Serge Stinckwich                                     OOOOOOOO
Université de Caen>CNRS UMR 6072>GREYC>MAD               OOESUGOO
http://purl.org/net/SergeStinckwich                       oooooo
Smalltalkers do: [:it | All with: Class, (And love: it)]   \  /
                                                             ##



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Re: Alan Kay's EuroPython Keynote

Brad Fuller
Serge Stinckwich wrote:
> There is a report of Guido Van Rossum about an Alan Kay talk in his
> web log here : http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=167318
>
this is sad to read:

Alan believes that Python has a much larger mindshare than Smalltalk or
Squeak, and that because of this a similar environment in Python will
have a greater chance of succeeding than the current Squeak one. Also,
the $100 laptop already has Python, and Alan is of course hoping that a
Squeak-like environment will be part of it, so this appears expedient.
(At the Shuttleworth summit in April
<http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=156162> I believe
Alan also suggested that Squeak is suffering from its extremely simple
graphics model; apparently it cannot benefit from graphics accelerator
cards because of its platform-independent architecture. Python on the
other hand already has bindings to OpenGL and DirectX, for example.)

--
brad
sonaural


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Re: Alan Kay's EuroPython Keynote

Giovanni Corriga
Il giorno gio, 06/07/2006 alle 15.46 -0700, Brad Fuller ha scritto:

> Serge Stinckwich wrote:
> > There is a report of Guido Van Rossum about an Alan Kay talk in his
> > web log here : http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=167318
> >
> this is sad to read:
>
> Alan believes that Python has a much larger mindshare than Smalltalk or
> Squeak, and that because of this a similar environment in Python will
> have a greater chance of succeeding than the current Squeak one. Also,
> the $100 laptop already has Python, and Alan is of course hoping that a
> Squeak-like environment will be part of it, so this appears expedient.
> (At the Shuttleworth summit in April
> <http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=156162> I believe
> Alan also suggested that Squeak is suffering from its extremely simple
> graphics model; apparently it cannot benefit from graphics accelerator
> cards because of its platform-independent architecture. Python on the
> other hand already has bindings to OpenGL and DirectX, for example.)

In the comments to this thread, GvR acknowledges that this part of his
report was actually a misunderstanding on his part.

        Giovanni


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Re: Alan Kay's EuroPython Keynote

Brad Fuller
Giovanni Corriga wrote:

> Il giorno gio, 06/07/2006 alle 15.46 -0700, Brad Fuller ha scritto:
>  
>> Serge Stinckwich wrote:
>>    
>>> There is a report of Guido Van Rossum about an Alan Kay talk in his
>>> web log here : http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=167318
>>>
>>>      
>> this is sad to read:
>>
>> Alan believes that Python has a much larger mindshare than Smalltalk or
>> Squeak, and that because of this a similar environment in Python will
>> have a greater chance of succeeding than the current Squeak one. Also,
>> the $100 laptop already has Python, and Alan is of course hoping that a
>> Squeak-like environment will be part of it, so this appears expedient.
>> (At the Shuttleworth summit in April
>> <http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=156162> I believe
>> Alan also suggested that Squeak is suffering from its extremely simple
>> graphics model; apparently it cannot benefit from graphics accelerator
>> cards because of its platform-independent architecture. Python on the
>> other hand already has bindings to OpenGL and DirectX, for example.)
>>    
>
> In the comments to this thread, GvR acknowledges that this part of his
> report was actually a misunderstanding on his part.
>  
I did see the comments about graphics, but nothing about
"Alan believes that Python has a much larger mindshare than Smalltalk or
Squeak, and that because of this, a similar environment in Python will
have a greater chance of succeeding than the current Squeak one"

I do recall Alan saying something about Python, similar to this
statement, before. Don't remember where.

brad

--
brad
sonaural


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Re: Alan Kay's EuroPython Keynote

Yoshiki Ohshima
  Brad,

> I did see the comments about graphics, but nothing about
> "Alan believes that Python has a much larger mindshare than Smalltalk or
> Squeak, and that because of this, a similar environment in Python will
> have a greater chance of succeeding than the current Squeak one"

  The sentense actually doesn't start there.   Right before this
quote, there is a phrase "apparently (or just for the occasion :-)".

  While Python may have better chance of succeeding, it doesn't stop
Squeakers to try to make something even better than what we have now
or what the Python version may end up with.

-- Yoshiki

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Re: Alan Kay's EuroPython Keynote

Markus Gälli-3
In reply to this post by Brad Fuller

On Jul 7, 2006, at 12:46 AM, Brad Fuller wrote:

> Serge Stinckwich wrote:
>> There is a report of Guido Van Rossum about an Alan Kay talk in his
>> web log here : http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?
>> thread=167318
>>
> this is sad to read:
>
> Alan believes that Python has a much larger mindshare than  
> Smalltalk or
> Squeak, and that because of this a similar environment in Python will
> have a greater chance of succeeding than the current Squeak one. Also,
> the $100 laptop already has Python, and Alan is of course hoping  
> that a
> Squeak-like environment will be part of it, so this appears expedient.
> (At the Shuttleworth summit in April
> <http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=156162> I believe
> Alan also suggested that Squeak is suffering from its extremely simple
> graphics model; apparently it cannot benefit from graphics accelerator
> cards because of its platform-independent architecture. Python on the
> other hand already has bindings to OpenGL and DirectX, for example.)
>
> --
> brad
> sonaural
>
>

Hi folks,

let's be proud that Smalltalk was indispensable to come up with Etoys  
and let us accept the challenge.

I googled for python IDEs today and found
http://wiki.python.org/moin/IntegratedDevelopmentEnvironments
and there the most up to date IDE shootout of
http://spyced.blogspot.com/2005/09/review-of-6-python-ides.html
and
http://spyced.blogspot.com/2006/02/pycon-python-ide-review.html

I have to say that I was not impressed.

The IDEs were either not free: Wing, Komodo and in the future PyDev
based on Qt (Eric4)
had no liberal license (Gnu! ): SPE
couldn't eat their own dog food as they were based on Java: PyDev
or didn't have convincing screenshots: DrPython

Alan, which python IDE would you suggest us to widen our perspectives  
for ourselves, the job market and for helping to make the world a  
better place - if it is not Squeak?

Cheers,

Markus

p.s. another blog about Alan's talk can be found on
http://vanrees.org/weblog/archive/2006/07/03/europython-keynote-alan- 
kay-children-first

p.p.s. inspired by Paul Bissex - a guy who once wrote a small article  
about squeak for Wired - challenge on:
http://e-scribe.com/news/193
I wrote an Etoys version of this "reverse"-game.
It can be found on
http://www.squeakland.org/project.jsp?http://www.emergent.de/pub/ 
smalltalk/squeak/projects/reverse.pr

(I hope you all have the squeakland plugin installed... ;-) )

It has only a few lines more than the smalltalk (I  included a  
smalltalk version), python, ruby,... version but comes with a much  
more sophisticated user interface.
So I do think that Etoys are the way to go... no matter what the  
language is underneath - be it smalltalk/python/ruby/etc...

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Re: Alan Kay's EuroPython Keynote

Chris Cunnington-5
How, exactly, is Alan Kay still relevant?

Chris Cunnington
Toronto


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Re: Alan Kay's EuroPython Keynote

David T. Lewis
In reply to this post by Yoshiki Ohshima
On Thu, Jul 06, 2006 at 04:49:39PM -0700, Yoshiki Ohshima wrote:
>
>   While Python may have better chance of succeeding, it doesn't stop
> Squeakers to try to make something even better than what we have now
> or what the Python version may end up with.

Well said Yoshiki.


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Re: Alan Kay's EuroPython Keynote

Brad Fuller
In reply to this post by Markus Gälli-3
Markus Gaelli wrote:

On Jul 7, 2006, at 12:46 AM, Brad Fuller wrote:
Serge Stinckwich wrote:
There is a report of Guido Van Rossum about an Alan Kay talk in his
web log here : http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=167318

this is sad to read:

Alan believes that Python has a much larger mindshare than Smalltalk or
Squeak, and that because of this a similar environment in Python will
have a greater chance of succeeding than the current Squeak one. Also,
the $100 laptop already has Python, and Alan is of course hoping that a
Squeak-like environment will be part of it, so this appears expedient.
(At the Shuttleworth summit in April
<http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=156162> I believe
Alan also suggested that Squeak is suffering from its extremely simple
graphics model; apparently it cannot benefit from graphics accelerator
cards because of its platform-independent architecture. Python on the
other hand already has bindings to OpenGL and DirectX, for example.)

--brad
sonaural



Hi folks,

let's be proud that Smalltalk was indispensable to come up with Etoys and let us accept the challenge.

I googled for python IDEs today and found
http://wiki.python.org/moin/IntegratedDevelopmentEnvironments
and there the most up to date IDE shootout of
http://spyced.blogspot.com/2005/09/review-of-6-python-ides.html
and
http://spyced.blogspot.com/2006/02/pycon-python-ide-review.html

I have to say that I was not impressed.

The IDEs were either not free: Wing, Komodo and in the future PyDev
based on Qt (Eric4)
had no liberal license (Gnu! ): SPE
couldn't eat their own dog food as they were based on Java: PyDev
or didn't have convincing screenshots: DrPython

Alan, which python IDE would you suggest us to widen our perspectives for ourselves, the job market and for helping to make the world a better place - if it is not Squeak?

I have no idea if Alan actually said that, there are not quotes. And, Alan can speak for himself. However(!), if the essence of the paraphrase is right, I think he's suggesting that Python can benefit from the work that Smalltalk has pioneered. But, I don't know if he's referring to the IDE, eToys, or what when he says "environment"
-- 
brad
sonaural


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Re: Alan Kay's EuroPython Keynote

Alan Kay
In reply to this post by Brad Fuller
Hi Folks --

At 03:46 PM 7/6/2006, Brad Fuller wrote:
>Serge Stinckwich wrote:
> > There is a report of Guido Van Rossum about an Alan Kay talk in his
> > web log here : http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=167318
> >
>this is sad to read:
>
>Alan believes that Python has a much larger mindshare than Smalltalk or
>Squeak, and that because of this a similar environment in Python will
>have a greater chance of succeeding than the current Squeak one.

Explicitly for the deployment and maintainence in the third world on a
Linux platform ...

>  Also,
>the $100 laptop already has Python, and Alan is of course hoping that a
>Squeak-like environment will be part of it, so this appears expedient.

We will also have the Squeak based stuff on there. But I'm worried about
maintenance and extensions, etc. So we made a new version of Etoys (called
"WYSIwiki - will be released later this summer) that uses an OpenDoc format
for moving project/pages around. This could have any number of
"players/authoring hosts", and I'm hoping that both the Python and Ruby
communities will take a shot at doing one.

>(At the Shuttleworth summit in April
><http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=156162> I believe
>Alan also suggested that Squeak is suffering from its extremely simple
>graphics model; apparently it cannot benefit from graphics accelerator
>cards because of its platform-independent architecture.

I, of course, said nothing of the kind (since (a) this isn't true and (b)
Croquet does use OpenGL).

>Python on the
>other hand already has bindings to OpenGL and DirectX, for example.)

But it doesn't really have a reasonable graphics system. However, an etoys
environment is essentially a reasonable OOPL + plus a comprehensive
graphics system, so it would benefit the Python folks to take this step.

Cheers,

Alan


>--
>brad
>sonaural



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"Children First!" means ...

Alan Kay
In reply to this post by Brad Fuller
... Children First!

(It doesn't mean Squeak First, or Python or Ruby First.)

Cheers,

Alan

At 07:24 PM 7/6/2006, Brad Fuller wrote:
Markus Gaelli wrote:

On Jul 7, 2006, at 12:46 AM, Brad Fuller wrote:
Serge Stinckwich wrote:
There is a report of Guido Van Rossum about an Alan Kay talk in his
web log here : http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=167318
this is sad to read:

Alan believes that Python has a much larger mindshare than Smalltalk or
Squeak, and that because of this a similar environment in Python will
have a greater chance of succeeding than the current Squeak one. Also,
the $100 laptop already has Python, and Alan is of course hoping that a
Squeak-like environment will be part of it, so this appears expedient.
(At the Shuttleworth summit in April
<http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=156162> I believe
Alan also suggested that Squeak is suffering from its extremely simple
graphics model; apparently it cannot benefit from graphics accelerator
cards because of its platform-independent architecture. Python on the
other hand already has bindings to OpenGL and DirectX, for example.)

--brad
sonaural


Hi folks,

let's be proud that Smalltalk was indispensable to come up with Etoys and let us accept the challenge.

I googled for python IDEs today and found
http://wiki.python.org/moin/IntegratedDevelopmentEnvironments
and there the most up to date IDE shootout of
http://spyced.blogspot.com/2005/09/review-of-6-python-ides.html
and
http://spyced.blogspot.com/2006/02/pycon-python-ide-review.html

I have to say that I was not impressed.

The IDEs were either not free: Wing, Komodo and in the future PyDev
based on Qt (Eric4)
had no liberal license (Gnu! ): SPE
couldn't eat their own dog food as they were based on Java: PyDev
or didn't have convincing screenshots: DrPython

Alan, which python IDE would you suggest us to widen our perspectives for ourselves, the job market and for helping to make the world a better place - if it is not Squeak?
I have no idea if Alan actually said that, there are not quotes. And, Alan can speak for himself. However(!), if the essence of the paraphrase is right, I think he's suggesting that Python can benefit from the work that Smalltalk has pioneered. But, I don't know if he's referring to the IDE, eToys, or what when he says "environment"

-- 
brad
sonaural


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Re: Alan Kay's EuroPython Keynote

Dan Shafer-3
In reply to this post by Chris Cunnington-5
I'm not sure your question is serious, but for me, as a LONG-time  
Smalltalker, I pay a lot of attention to what Alan says because he  
has such a great depth and breadth of knowledge about the language,  
the tool, the history, the intent, the weaknesses, the power... He's  
nearly as important to Smalltalk/Squeak as Guido is to Python, IMNSHO.

Dan
On Jul 6, 2006, at 5:37 PM, Chris Cunnington wrote:

> How, exactly, is Alan Kay still relevant?
>
> Chris Cunnington
> Toronto
>
>


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Re: "Children First!" means ...

Andreas.Raab
In reply to this post by Alan Kay
Right. I *fully* support Alan's efforts to get these communities
involved in the educational efforts - if we compete then the kids will
ultimately win. If that is in Squeak or in Python or in Ruby, who cares?

Cheers,
   - Andreas

Alan Kay wrote:

> ... Children First!
>
> (It doesn't mean Squeak First, or Python or Ruby First.)
>
> Cheers,
>
> Alan
>
> At 07:24 PM 7/6/2006, Brad Fuller wrote:
>> Markus Gaelli wrote:
>>>
>>> On Jul 7, 2006, at 12:46 AM, Brad Fuller wrote:
>>>> Serge Stinckwich wrote:
>>>>> There is a report of Guido Van Rossum about an Alan Kay talk in his
>>>>> web log here :
>>>>> http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=167318
>>>> this is sad to read:
>>>>
>>>> Alan believes that Python has a much larger mindshare than Smalltalk or
>>>> Squeak, and that because of this a similar environment in Python will
>>>> have a greater chance of succeeding than the current Squeak one. Also,
>>>> the $100 laptop already has Python, and Alan is of course hoping that a
>>>> Squeak-like environment will be part of it, so this appears expedient.
>>>> (At the Shuttleworth summit in April
>>>> <
>>>> <http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=156162>http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=156162>
>>>> <http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=156162> I believe
>>>> Alan also suggested that Squeak is suffering from its extremely simple
>>>> graphics model; apparently it cannot benefit from graphics accelerator
>>>> cards because of its platform-independent architecture. Python on the
>>>> other hand already has bindings to OpenGL and DirectX, for example.)
>>>>
>>>> --brad
>>>> sonaural
>>>>
>>>
>>> Hi folks,
>>>
>>> let's be proud that Smalltalk was indispensable to come up with Etoys
>>> and let us accept the challenge.
>>>
>>> I googled for python IDEs today and found
>>> http://wiki.python.org/moin/IntegratedDevelopmentEnvironments
>>> and there the most up to date IDE shootout of
>>> http://spyced.blogspot.com/2005/09/review-of-6-python-ides.html
>>> and
>>> http://spyced.blogspot.com/2006/02/pycon-python-ide-review.html
>>>
>>> I have to say that I was not impressed.
>>>
>>> The IDEs were either not free: Wing, Komodo and in the future PyDev
>>> based on Qt (Eric4)
>>> had no liberal license (Gnu! ): SPE
>>> couldn't eat their own dog food as they were based on Java: PyDev
>>> or didn't have convincing screenshots: DrPython
>>>
>>> Alan, which python IDE would you suggest us to widen our perspectives
>>> for ourselves, the job market and for helping to make the world a
>>> better place - if it is not Squeak?
>> I have no idea if Alan actually said that, there are not quotes. And,
>> Alan can speak for himself. However(!), if the essence of the
>> paraphrase is right, I think he's suggesting that Python can benefit
>> from the work that Smalltalk has pioneered. But, I don't know if he's
>> referring to the IDE, eToys, or what when he says "environment"
>>
>> --
>> brad
>> sonaural
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>


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Re: "Children First!" means ...

Cees De Groot
In reply to this post by Alan Kay
On 7/7/06, Alan Kay <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>  ... Children First!
>
>  (It doesn't mean Squeak First, or Python or Ruby First.)
>
+1

I always feel that these discussions are aboutas fruitful as
discussions about what brand screwdriver to use :-)

Python has a *huge* mindshare, compared to Squeak. If Alan can
leverage that and thereby get better software, that's great.

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Re: "Children First!" means ...

Markus Gälli-3

On Jul 7, 2006, at 9:29 AM, Cees De Groot wrote:

> On 7/7/06, Alan Kay <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>  ... Children First!
>>
>>  (It doesn't mean Squeak First, or Python or Ruby First.)
>>
> +1

+1

>
> I always feel that these discussions are aboutas fruitful as
> discussions about what brand screwdriver to use :-)

-1 ;-) Not for the ones who haven't understood yet, that the screws  
are standard - I did not entirely realize until now, that both the  
snake and the mouse could create, exchange and eat _the same_ dog food.

it is good news to me that the next Etoys version will be more  
language agnostic as it is running in a net environment like a Wiki  
and based on an open standard format.

>
> Python has a *huge* mindshare, compared to Squeak. If Alan can
> leverage that and thereby get better software, that's great.
>

Right.

Cheers,

Markus

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Re: Alan Kay's EuroPython Keynote

Bert Freudenberg-3
In reply to this post by Alan Kay
Am 07.07.2006 um 06:40 schrieb Alan Kay:

>>  Also,
>> the $100 laptop already has Python, and Alan is of course hoping  
>> that a
>> Squeak-like environment will be part of it, so this appears  
>> expedient.
>
> We will also have the Squeak based stuff on there. But I'm worried  
> about maintenance and extensions, etc. So we made a new version of  
> Etoys (called "WYSIwiki - will be released later this summer) that  
> uses an OpenDoc format for moving project/pages around. This could  
> have any number of "players/authoring hosts", and I'm hoping that  
> both the Python and Ruby communities will take a shot at doing one.

There is an experimental morphic-like environment in Python by Paul  
Fernhout (former Squeaker). It's only a few weeks in development, see  
the video linked from

        http://www.mail-archive.com/edu-sig@.../msg02492.html

Python's "edu-sig" mailing list is an interesting place for sure, but  
I doubt they'll buy into the visual, constructivist approach of Etoys  
anytime soon.

- Bert -


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Re: Alan Kay's Relevance

Gary Fisher-3
In reply to this post by Chris Cunnington-5
Interesting question, Chris.
 
In a sense, Alan's work and vision have become so foundational to both computing and to computers in education that he has attained the ubiquity, and therefore the sort of "familiar imperceptibility," of the ground beneath us or the air around us -- without them or him we wouldn't be where we are but we also wouldn't know what we'd missed.  Think of how the Macintosh computer, for example, has changed the world, and then step back to see that the Mac was a feeble effort to approach a vision Alan had set out and, with associates like Dan Ingalls, demonstrated years earlier, yet which, fully realized, is still just a little beyond us today -- and still being shepherded by Dr. Alan Kay.
 
In education, you will find computers used (by students) in one of two ways; either the unsuccessful "trade school" model where kids are lashed to a machine and forced to do office work (though even that is thoroughly and thankfully infused with user interface models we owe to Dr. Kay) or the highly successful "human augmentation" model in which computers become tools to free and even to inspire understanding and intelligent imagination in young minds.  This second model, which is in use today at schools all over the world, can unquestionably be traced to Dr. Kay's work with students at Jordan Junior High in 1973 (at a time when few students beneath the graduate school level had even seen, much less been permitted to use, any computer at all) -- and is still benefitting from Alan's constant efforts.
 
The Dynabook, Alan's 1968 proposal for a computer powerful, portable and inexpensive enough to become an interactive textbook and tool for students from the elementary school level on up, is quite clearly the underlying concept behind today's initiative (www.laptop.org) to put such tools in the hands of children, especially in those countries where educational opportunities have for so long lagged behind -- and Dr. Alan Kay is an advisor to that iniative.
 
Dr. Kay's comment that ". . . if you are immersed in a context you can't even see it" ironically applies to himself with regard to your question, for in many ways Alan Kay has *become* context in his field.  Alan Kay is relevant as visionary and pioneer, yes, but also as organizer, encourager, leader, promoter -- in short, as teacher to those of us who try, and hope someday to catch and then to carry his vision, not just for the means represented by superior programming languages and intuitive user interfaces but for the goal of helping the next generations to truly make the world a better place.
 
Gary
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Cunnington" <[hidden email]>
To: "The general-purpose Squeak developers list" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 8:37 PM
Subject: Re: Alan Kay's EuroPython Keynote

How, exactly, is Alan Kay still relevant?

Chris Cunnington
Toronto




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Re: Alan Kay's Relevance

Brad Fuller
Gary Fisher wrote:

> Interesting question, Chris.
>  
> In a sense, Alan's work and vision have become so foundational to both
> computing and to computers in education that he has attained the
> ubiquity, and therefore the sort of "familiar imperceptibility," of
> the ground beneath us or the air around us -- without them or him we
> wouldn't be where we are but we also wouldn't know what we'd missed.
> Think of how the Macintosh computer, for example, has changed the
> world, and then step back to see that the Mac was a feeble effort to
> approach a vision Alan had set out and, with associates like Dan
> Ingalls, demonstrated years earlier, yet which, fully realized, is
> still just a little beyond us today -- and still being shepherded by
> Dr. Alan Kay.
>  
> In education, you will find computers used (by students) in one of two
> ways; either the unsuccessful "trade school" model
> <http://www.kto8.com/lessons_demo.php> where kids are lashed to a
> machine and forced to do office work (though even that is thoroughly
> and thankfully infused with user interface models we owe to Dr. Kay)
> or the highly successful "human augmentation" model
> <http://www.squeakland.org/school/schoolhome.html> in which computers
> become tools to free and even to inspire understanding and intelligent
> imagination in young minds.  This second model, which is in use today
> at schools all over the world, can unquestionably be traced to Dr.
> Kay's work with students at Jordan Junior High in 1973 (at a time when
> few students beneath the graduate school level had even seen, much
> less been permitted to use, any computer at all) -- and is
> still benefitting from Alan's constant efforts.
>  
> The Dynabook
> <http://www.artmuseum.net/w2vr/archives/Kay/01_Dynabook.html>, Alan's
> 1968 proposal for a computer powerful, portable and inexpensive enough
> to become an interactive textbook and tool for students from the
> elementary school level on up, is quite clearly the underlying concept
> behind today's initiative (www.laptop.org <http://www.laptop.org>) to
> put such tools in the hands of children, especially in those countries
> where educational opportunities have for so long lagged behind -- and
> Dr. Alan Kay is an advisor to that iniative.
>  
> Dr. Kay's comment that ". . . if you are immersed in a context you
> can't even see it" ironically applies to himself with regard to your
> question, for in many ways Alan Kay has *become* context in his
> field.  Alan Kay is relevant as visionary and pioneer, yes, but also
> as organizer, encourager, leader, promoter -- in short, as teacher to
> those of us who try, and hope someday to catch and then to carry his
> vision, not just for the means represented by superior programming
> languages and intuitive user interfaces but for the goal
> <http://www.viewpointsresearch.org/about.html> of helping the next
> generations to truly make the world a better place.
>  
> Gary
Wow. Nicely done and interesting perspective.

I say: "Alan Kay for President!"

--
brad
sonaural


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Re: Alan Kay's Relevance

Chris Cunnington-5
Let's see. Where to start. I said "still". I said why is Alan Kay "still"
relevant. And, yes, it means I have a beef with this pioneer. But as I say
in my blog, let's back up.

It has been acknowledged that he is a pioneer, and has done things ... in
the past. That¹s why I used the word "still" to qualify my question. Mac's,
Turing award, object-oriented language pioneering. In the past. Why is he
still relevant?

A sense a whole lot of hero worship here, people. That's not good for
anything. Alan Kay says all the time that he wants things to be made
obsolete, so that they can be reinvented. Everything except himself, of
course. You will never exceed your masters if you revere them too much.
There is a time for putting  them aside and doing YOUR thing. As they say in
the Japanese martial arts: enter form; exit form. Learn, and then go
further.

I'll say the two things (that I know about) that make him relevant, and why
he gets on my nerves.

I want to see WYSIwiki. I glimpse the vast potential of Etoys. I want the
Smalltalk Flash plug-in. I want the 3D virtual reality demo that Kay did
(and you can see in Google Video) available to everyone, so that World Of
Warcraft could be written in Smalltalk.

I also think Kay is useful in licensing. He has thawed up the Apple/Squeak
license problem. I want a Linux distro to carry Squeak AROUND THE WORLD.

What annoys me is his ability to be the Pied Piper nobody else can follow.
Here is a guy who goes around the world making killer demonstrations to
audiences. If somebody in the audience says "I want to do that too", then
they have a huge problem on their hands. Etoys is the perfect example. Go to
Google Video, look up Smalltalk or Squeak and find the American teacher, who
made three videos of his use of Etoys, and  how he had to abandon it. I
wrote about it in my blog.

The Smalltalk/Squeak world has a HUGE documentation and support problem. You
don't think so because YOU HAVE DRUNK THE KOOL-AID. Can you show me stats of
people who tried to entered this world and were deterred by a variety of
obstacles?

If you want to lionize someone, then lionize Adele Goldberg. She wrote the
books, people. Not as flashy or aggressive a personality as Alan Kay. But
Dan Ingalls says she was the only documenter of the group. A song without a
song sheet is a rumour. She's done more for the continuance of Smalltalk
than Alan Kay for all his presentations. To my knowledge Alan Kay has never
written a book in his life. Great talker, though.

Chris Cunnington
Toronto

http://www.brokentomb.com

P.S.: I may not be able to answer anything until Monday. I'm off to Toronto
Trek 20. Mr. Sulu is here in Tdot!


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Re: Alan Kay's Relevance

Brad Fuller
sheess.... my president comment was tongue-in-cheek... just a joke.

I do agree with you on some aspects: squeak needs more class
documentation, tutorials, etc.

I disagree with you that you can't do what Alan demos. I'll check out
your blog, though to get your full scoop.

brad

Chris Cunnington wrote:

> Let's see. Where to start. I said "still". I said why is Alan Kay "still"
> relevant. And, yes, it means I have a beef with this pioneer. But as I say
> in my blog, let's back up.
>
> It has been acknowledged that he is a pioneer, and has done things ... in
> the past. That¹s why I used the word "still" to qualify my question. Mac's,
> Turing award, object-oriented language pioneering. In the past. Why is he
> still relevant?
>
> A sense a whole lot of hero worship here, people. That's not good for
> anything. Alan Kay says all the time that he wants things to be made
> obsolete, so that they can be reinvented. Everything except himself, of
> course. You will never exceed your masters if you revere them too much.
> There is a time for putting  them aside and doing YOUR thing. As they say in
> the Japanese martial arts: enter form; exit form. Learn, and then go
> further.
>
> I'll say the two things (that I know about) that make him relevant, and why
> he gets on my nerves.
>
> I want to see WYSIwiki. I glimpse the vast potential of Etoys. I want the
> Smalltalk Flash plug-in. I want the 3D virtual reality demo that Kay did
> (and you can see in Google Video) available to everyone, so that World Of
> Warcraft could be written in Smalltalk.
>
> I also think Kay is useful in licensing. He has thawed up the Apple/Squeak
> license problem. I want a Linux distro to carry Squeak AROUND THE WORLD.
>
> What annoys me is his ability to be the Pied Piper nobody else can follow.
> Here is a guy who goes around the world making killer demonstrations to
> audiences. If somebody in the audience says "I want to do that too", then
> they have a huge problem on their hands. Etoys is the perfect example. Go to
> Google Video, look up Smalltalk or Squeak and find the American teacher, who
> made three videos of his use of Etoys, and  how he had to abandon it. I
> wrote about it in my blog.
>
> The Smalltalk/Squeak world has a HUGE documentation and support problem. You
> don't think so because YOU HAVE DRUNK THE KOOL-AID. Can you show me stats of
> people who tried to entered this world and were deterred by a variety of
> obstacles?
>
> If you want to lionize someone, then lionize Adele Goldberg. She wrote the
> books, people. Not as flashy or aggressive a personality as Alan Kay. But
> Dan Ingalls says she was the only documenter of the group. A song without a
> song sheet is a rumour. She's done more for the continuance of Smalltalk
> than Alan Kay for all his presentations. To my knowledge Alan Kay has never
> written a book in his life. Great talker, though.
>
> Chris Cunnington
> Toronto
>
> http://www.brokentomb.com
>
> P.S.: I may not be able to answer anything until Monday. I'm off to Toronto
> Trek 20. Mr. Sulu is here in Tdot!
>
>
>
>  


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