Amber hosted locally for rapid prototyping and experiments

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Amber hosted locally for rapid prototyping and experiments

basilmir
Hello everyone,

I'm intruding on your patience again. I had this spark of insight late last night and I wanted to tell you all about it so I hope this goes through, the mailinglist seems to lag behind and my e-mails are probably moderated arriving a day late sometimes.

I would like to discuss an interesting use case for Amber. 

For a long time I've been using this single page entirely Javascript wiki app called TiddlyWiki5. It can be installed on a NodeJS server and act as a collaboration platform. Source code here https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5 with instructions on how to install here http://tiddlywiki.com/#Installing%20TiddlyWiki%20on%20Node.js

Amber is "basically" an entirely Javascript app too. It can alse be installed on a NodeJS backend and also and act as a development hub to that particular app. Source code here http://tiddlywiki.com/#Installing%20TiddlyWiki%20on%20Node.js with instructions on how to install here http://docs.amber-lang.net/faq.html

But here is where the 'similarities' end. Unbeknownst to most is the fact that TiddlyWiki, being a Javascript app, also has a 'local' or 'single-file' mode where the entire app is stored in a .html file on your local storage. This 'single-file' mode is remarcably similar to what a .image file is to Pharo or Squeak Smalltalk.

How it works:
Enter the single-file, self modifying Javascript app TiddlyWiki. It is a single .html file http://tiddlywiki.com/empty.html (right click to download an empty wiki). You double click this .html file to open it locally. Click the "+" sign on the right to add a "Tiddler" note and the Checkmark sign in the note to save it. If you close the page, all edits are lost.

Q: How do you save the modified Tiddlywiki, Javascript in the Web Browser is forbidden to access local resources?

A: Easy, you just click File - Save As from your Favorite Web Browser. A new .html file is created with your saved content which you can save over the old one.


Imagine if Amber were like this, and it essentially is that way today. Amber is client-side in its essence, and mainly used to develop single page designs. From what I see NodeJS is partly used as a persistence mechanism (along with other things) when running a "hosted" Amber website so one can commit code written in a "remote" Web Browser.


In theory the already compiled Amber code could be packaged together with accompanying HTML into a single file and run as is (if all it uses are page resources).


If one wanted, it could even include the IDE, together with the source code packaged inside the file, so you can modify the single-file Amber while it runs in the Web Browser, compile it and so on.


But wait there's more, here is where it becomes really interesting. Tiddlywiki goes even further:


Q: Yes, yes but wouldn't it be nice if it could save itself automagically every time I edit a method, or every time I commit a package?

A: Not so easy... But it's already been done. 

Believe it or not they even have Automatic Saving. but for that you need Firefox with the TiddlyFox https://addons.mozilla.org/ro/firefox/addon/tiddlyfox/ extension installed.

Now when you open your local file with Firefox (+TiddlyFox) you are asked if you want to enable local file saving for this file (it asks for every new file and remembers the ones you already added)

Done. Now Click the “+” sign to add a new Tiddler, edit it, click the checkmark to save it and now the top right corner lights up with a notification. Wiki saved.


* this is how TiddlyFox the extensions sets up an environment to save the file https://github.com/TiddlyWiki/TiddlyFox/blob/6cf9c9ee6e128a681548529316b3d31a8362fe0d/content/overlay.js#L84


Using Amber and Helios IDE in a local development scenario for rapid prototyping, have you ever considered this?

I can't see exactly if you guys have considered this scenario but it seemed rather interesting. 


Good parts I can see:


1. From a UX point if view this is similar to the One Click Experience in Pharo. Download one file, double click, it works. Essentially the .html file is the "image" and every Browser on the planet is the "VM". After you experiment and develop locally you can the your code out and put it in the hosted site.


2. Very good for beginers to test out quickly, deploy, delete, restart. Imagine a portable file like this with Amber-Athens testing out code for manipulating vectors. 


3. Ability to have tens of versions of the same code by just copying the file instead of creating new apps on the server. 


Thank you for taking the time to read this far. 


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Re: Amber hosted locally for rapid prototyping and experiments

Adventurer
I'm very familiar with Tiddlywiki and some of it's derivative like MGSD.

As I understand it, with Amber all the js magic happens in the browser, and in this case Node is simply a dumb webserver.  To verify this, run one of your Amber projects by opening it's index.html file in a web-browser.  I think that you'll find that it runs just fine.

Therefore I would agree that Amber could be run in the same way, and I intend to run it this way myself.

However, the self-modifying html file concept is another headache altogether.  It runs foul of browser security mechanisms and is difficult for a layman to get to work.  The Tiddlywiki guys had to write various mechanisms to break browser security to get it to work, things like Tiddlyfox, Tiddlysaver.jar and AndTidWiki on Android.

In the end they've moved to Dropbox and local storage.

I don't believe that Amber should go down this path, the Tiddlywiki guys have been there, and it's not fun.

HTH,

Craig
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Re: Amber hosted locally for rapid prototyping and experiments

Joe Shirk
In reply to this post by basilmir
I have been using TW Classic for some time myself, mostly for simple interactive resumes that are filterable by category. I never managed to use it for much outside of the hosted version on tiddlyspace, and in the corporate environment where it was too much to ask for a wiki server, i could share and collaborate with a few people on the intranet only if I could get them to use firefox. but here is where i think the next big thing we have been waiting to become a reality for a while: a decentralized, serverless wiki. This project has much promise but when I think of it being implemented in Amber, I get much more excited:

http://p2pvalue.eu/blog/awakening-decentralised-real-time-collaboration



On Monday, February 9, 2015 at 7:51:00 AM UTC-5, Mircea S. wrote:
Hello everyone,

I'm intruding on your patience again. I had this spark of insight late last night and I wanted to tell you all about it so I hope this goes through, the mailinglist seems to lag behind and my e-mails are probably moderated arriving a day late sometimes.

I would like to discuss an interesting use case for Amber. 

For a long time I've been using this single page entirely Javascript wiki app called TiddlyWiki5. It can be installed on a NodeJS server and act as a collaboration platform. Source code here <a href="https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2FJermolene%2FTiddlyWiki5\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNE1OmKWMVPr-V7uwpfjC9wahccYsw';return true;" onclick="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2FJermolene%2FTiddlyWiki5\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNE1OmKWMVPr-V7uwpfjC9wahccYsw';return true;">https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5 with instructions on how to install here <a href="http://tiddlywiki.com/#Installing%20TiddlyWiki%20on%20Node.js" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Ftiddlywiki.com%2F%23Installing%2520TiddlyWiki%2520on%2520Node.js\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNF6HtXYnUx6DMfglMBDfi1AeDdMlw';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Ftiddlywiki.com%2F%23Installing%2520TiddlyWiki%2520on%2520Node.js\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNF6HtXYnUx6DMfglMBDfi1AeDdMlw';return true;">http://tiddlywiki.com/#Installing%20TiddlyWiki%20on%20Node.js

Amber is "basically" an entirely Javascript app too. It can alse be installed on a NodeJS backend and also and act as a development hub to that particular app. Source code here <a href="http://tiddlywiki.com/#Installing%20TiddlyWiki%20on%20Node.js" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Ftiddlywiki.com%2F%23Installing%2520TiddlyWiki%2520on%2520Node.js\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNF6HtXYnUx6DMfglMBDfi1AeDdMlw';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Ftiddlywiki.com%2F%23Installing%2520TiddlyWiki%2520on%2520Node.js\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNF6HtXYnUx6DMfglMBDfi1AeDdMlw';return true;">http://tiddlywiki.com/#Installing%20TiddlyWiki%20on%20Node.js with instructions on how to install here <a href="http://docs.amber-lang.net/faq.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fdocs.amber-lang.net%2Ffaq.html\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNELR8gEA2fyAR4pEknvj95Num0opw';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fdocs.amber-lang.net%2Ffaq.html\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNELR8gEA2fyAR4pEknvj95Num0opw';return true;">http://docs.amber-lang.net/faq.html

But here is where the 'similarities' end. Unbeknownst to most is the fact that TiddlyWiki, being a Javascript app, also has a 'local' or 'single-file' mode where the entire app is stored in a .html file on your local storage. This 'single-file' mode is remarcably similar to what a .image file is to Pharo or Squeak Smalltalk.

How it works:
Enter the single-file, self modifying Javascript app TiddlyWiki. It is a single .html file <a href="http://tiddlywiki.com/empty.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Ftiddlywiki.com%2Fempty.html\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGFFc9DJ2htQpF_1_nxZaBnHTr0lg';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Ftiddlywiki.com%2Fempty.html\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGFFc9DJ2htQpF_1_nxZaBnHTr0lg';return true;">http://tiddlywiki.com/empty.html (right click to download an empty wiki). You double click this .html file to open it locally. Click the "+" sign on the right to add a "Tiddler" note and the Checkmark sign in the note to save it. If you close the page, all edits are lost.

Q: How do you save the modified Tiddlywiki, Javascript in the Web Browser is forbidden to access local resources?

A: Easy, you just click File - Save As from your Favorite Web Browser. A new .html file is created with your saved content which you can save over the old one.


Imagine if Amber were like this, and it essentially is that way today. Amber is client-side in its essence, and mainly used to develop single page designs. From what I see NodeJS is partly used as a persistence mechanism (along with other things) when running a "hosted" Amber website so one can commit code written in a "remote" Web Browser.


In theory the already compiled Amber code could be packaged together with accompanying HTML into a single file and run as is (if all it uses are page resources).


If one wanted, it could even include the IDE, together with the source code packaged inside the file, so you can modify the single-file Amber while it runs in the Web Browser, compile it and so on.


But wait there's more, here is where it becomes really interesting. Tiddlywiki goes even further:


Q: Yes, yes but wouldn't it be nice if it could save itself automagically every time I edit a method, or every time I commit a package?

A: Not so easy... But it's already been done. 

Believe it or not they even have Automatic Saving. but for that you need Firefox with the TiddlyFox <a href="https://addons.mozilla.org/ro/firefox/addon/tiddlyfox/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Faddons.mozilla.org%2Fro%2Ffirefox%2Faddon%2Ftiddlyfox%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFS-xPd8JBqrdvkjXbD44FS3iZfLw';return true;" onclick="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Faddons.mozilla.org%2Fro%2Ffirefox%2Faddon%2Ftiddlyfox%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFS-xPd8JBqrdvkjXbD44FS3iZfLw';return true;">https://addons.mozilla.org/ro/firefox/addon/tiddlyfox/ extension installed.

Now when you open your local file with Firefox (+TiddlyFox) you are asked if you want to enable local file saving for this file (it asks for every new file and remembers the ones you already added)

Done. Now Click the “+” sign to add a new Tiddler, edit it, click the checkmark to save it and now the top right corner lights up with a notification. Wiki saved.


* this is how TiddlyFox the extensions sets up an environment to save the file <a href="https://github.com/TiddlyWiki/TiddlyFox/blob/6cf9c9ee6e128a681548529316b3d31a8362fe0d/content/overlay.js#L84" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2FTiddlyWiki%2FTiddlyFox%2Fblob%2F6cf9c9ee6e128a681548529316b3d31a8362fe0d%2Fcontent%2Foverlay.js%23L84\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFjgBokjEOmo9s1e_l3SnduTcW6fw';return true;" onclick="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2FTiddlyWiki%2FTiddlyFox%2Fblob%2F6cf9c9ee6e128a681548529316b3d31a8362fe0d%2Fcontent%2Foverlay.js%23L84\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFjgBokjEOmo9s1e_l3SnduTcW6fw';return true;">https://github.com/TiddlyWiki/TiddlyFox/blob/6cf9c9ee6e128a681548529316b3d31a8362fe0d/content/overlay.js#L84


Using Amber and Helios IDE in a local development scenario for rapid prototyping, have you ever considered this?

I can't see exactly if you guys have considered this scenario but it seemed rather interesting. 


Good parts I can see:


1. From a UX point if view this is similar to the One Click Experience in Pharo. Download one file, double click, it works. Essentially the .html file is the "image" and every Browser on the planet is the "VM". After you experiment and develop locally you can the your code out and put it in the hosted site.


2. Very good for beginers to test out quickly, deploy, delete, restart. Imagine a portable file like this with Amber-Athens testing out code for manipulating vectors. 


3. Ability to have tens of versions of the same code by just copying the file instead of creating new apps on the server. 


Thank you for taking the time to read this far. 


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Re: Amber hosted locally for rapid prototyping and experiments

Joe Shirk
In reply to this post by basilmir
Sorry, I pressed the wrong reply button:

I have been using TW Classic for some time myself, mostly for simple interactive resumes that are filterable by category. I never managed to use it for much outside of the hosted version on tiddlyspace, and in the corporate environment where it was too much to ask for a wiki server, i could share and collaborate with a few people on the intranet only if I could get them to use firefox. but here is where i think the next big thing we have been waiting to become a reality for a while: a decentralized, serverless wiki. This project has much promise but when I think of it being implemented in Amber, I get much more excited:


On Monday, February 9, 2015 at 7:51:00 AM UTC-5, Mircea S. wrote:
Hello everyone,

I'm intruding on your patience again. I had this spark of insight late last night and I wanted to tell you all about it so I hope this goes through, the mailinglist seems to lag behind and my e-mails are probably moderated arriving a day late sometimes.

I would like to discuss an interesting use case for Amber. 

For a long time I've been using this single page entirely Javascript wiki app called TiddlyWiki5. It can be installed on a NodeJS server and act as a collaboration platform. Source code here <a href="https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2FJermolene%2FTiddlyWiki5\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNE1OmKWMVPr-V7uwpfjC9wahccYsw';return true;" onclick="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2FJermolene%2FTiddlyWiki5\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNE1OmKWMVPr-V7uwpfjC9wahccYsw';return true;">https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5 with instructions on how to install here <a href="http://tiddlywiki.com/#Installing%20TiddlyWiki%20on%20Node.js" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Ftiddlywiki.com%2F%23Installing%2520TiddlyWiki%2520on%2520Node.js\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNF6HtXYnUx6DMfglMBDfi1AeDdMlw';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Ftiddlywiki.com%2F%23Installing%2520TiddlyWiki%2520on%2520Node.js\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNF6HtXYnUx6DMfglMBDfi1AeDdMlw';return true;">http://tiddlywiki.com/#Installing%20TiddlyWiki%20on%20Node.js

Amber is "basically" an entirely Javascript app too. It can alse be installed on a NodeJS backend and also and act as a development hub to that particular app. Source code here <a href="http://tiddlywiki.com/#Installing%20TiddlyWiki%20on%20Node.js" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Ftiddlywiki.com%2F%23Installing%2520TiddlyWiki%2520on%2520Node.js\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNF6HtXYnUx6DMfglMBDfi1AeDdMlw';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Ftiddlywiki.com%2F%23Installing%2520TiddlyWiki%2520on%2520Node.js\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNF6HtXYnUx6DMfglMBDfi1AeDdMlw';return true;">http://tiddlywiki.com/#Installing%20TiddlyWiki%20on%20Node.js with instructions on how to install here <a href="http://docs.amber-lang.net/faq.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fdocs.amber-lang.net%2Ffaq.html\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNELR8gEA2fyAR4pEknvj95Num0opw';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fdocs.amber-lang.net%2Ffaq.html\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNELR8gEA2fyAR4pEknvj95Num0opw';return true;">http://docs.amber-lang.net/faq.html

But here is where the 'similarities' end. Unbeknownst to most is the fact that TiddlyWiki, being a Javascript app, also has a 'local' or 'single-file' mode where the entire app is stored in a .html file on your local storage. This 'single-file' mode is remarcably similar to what a .image file is to Pharo or Squeak Smalltalk.

How it works:
Enter the single-file, self modifying Javascript app TiddlyWiki. It is a single .html file <a href="http://tiddlywiki.com/empty.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Ftiddlywiki.com%2Fempty.html\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGFFc9DJ2htQpF_1_nxZaBnHTr0lg';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Ftiddlywiki.com%2Fempty.html\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGFFc9DJ2htQpF_1_nxZaBnHTr0lg';return true;">http://tiddlywiki.com/empty.html (right click to download an empty wiki). You double click this .html file to open it locally. Click the "+" sign on the right to add a "Tiddler" note and the Checkmark sign in the note to save it. If you close the page, all edits are lost.

Q: How do you save the modified Tiddlywiki, Javascript in the Web Browser is forbidden to access local resources?

A: Easy, you just click File - Save As from your Favorite Web Browser. A new .html file is created with your saved content which you can save over the old one.


Imagine if Amber were like this, and it essentially is that way today. Amber is client-side in its essence, and mainly used to develop single page designs. From what I see NodeJS is partly used as a persistence mechanism (along with other things) when running a "hosted" Amber website so one can commit code written in a "remote" Web Browser.


In theory the already compiled Amber code could be packaged together with accompanying HTML into a single file and run as is (if all it uses are page resources).


If one wanted, it could even include the IDE, together with the source code packaged inside the file, so you can modify the single-file Amber while it runs in the Web Browser, compile it and so on.


But wait there's more, here is where it becomes really interesting. Tiddlywiki goes even further:


Q: Yes, yes but wouldn't it be nice if it could save itself automagically every time I edit a method, or every time I commit a package?

A: Not so easy... But it's already been done. 

Believe it or not they even have Automatic Saving. but for that you need Firefox with the TiddlyFox <a href="https://addons.mozilla.org/ro/firefox/addon/tiddlyfox/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Faddons.mozilla.org%2Fro%2Ffirefox%2Faddon%2Ftiddlyfox%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFS-xPd8JBqrdvkjXbD44FS3iZfLw';return true;" onclick="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Faddons.mozilla.org%2Fro%2Ffirefox%2Faddon%2Ftiddlyfox%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFS-xPd8JBqrdvkjXbD44FS3iZfLw';return true;">https://addons.mozilla.org/ro/firefox/addon/tiddlyfox/ extension installed.

Now when you open your local file with Firefox (+TiddlyFox) you are asked if you want to enable local file saving for this file (it asks for every new file and remembers the ones you already added)

Done. Now Click the “+” sign to add a new Tiddler, edit it, click the checkmark to save it and now the top right corner lights up with a notification. Wiki saved.


* this is how TiddlyFox the extensions sets up an environment to save the file <a href="https://github.com/TiddlyWiki/TiddlyFox/blob/6cf9c9ee6e128a681548529316b3d31a8362fe0d/content/overlay.js#L84" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2FTiddlyWiki%2FTiddlyFox%2Fblob%2F6cf9c9ee6e128a681548529316b3d31a8362fe0d%2Fcontent%2Foverlay.js%23L84\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFjgBokjEOmo9s1e_l3SnduTcW6fw';return true;" onclick="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2FTiddlyWiki%2FTiddlyFox%2Fblob%2F6cf9c9ee6e128a681548529316b3d31a8362fe0d%2Fcontent%2Foverlay.js%23L84\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFjgBokjEOmo9s1e_l3SnduTcW6fw';return true;">https://github.com/TiddlyWiki/TiddlyFox/blob/6cf9c9ee6e128a681548529316b3d31a8362fe0d/content/overlay.js#L84


Using Amber and Helios IDE in a local development scenario for rapid prototyping, have you ever considered this?

I can't see exactly if you guys have considered this scenario but it seemed rather interesting. 


Good parts I can see:


1. From a UX point if view this is similar to the One Click Experience in Pharo. Download one file, double click, it works. Essentially the .html file is the "image" and every Browser on the planet is the "VM". After you experiment and develop locally you can the your code out and put it in the hosted site.


2. Very good for beginers to test out quickly, deploy, delete, restart. Imagine a portable file like this with Amber-Athens testing out code for manipulating vectors. 


3. Ability to have tens of versions of the same code by just copying the file instead of creating new apps on the server. 


Thank you for taking the time to read this far. 


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Re: Amber hosted locally for rapid prototyping and experiments

basilmir
In reply to this post by Joe Shirk
I've done some digging around in the Javascript in TiddlyWiki and figured out most of the inner workings of the save process. 

Also had a detailed discussion with H Hizel and S Sastre here in the list to see if this is possible. 

If there is confirmation from dev people higher up that this scenario is interesting and will be supported if we make the effort to add it I don't mind putting up some of the resources to encourage development. 

Alas I can't figure out if this is a 10 hour job, a 30 hour job or in the hundreds. 



Pe 18 feb. 2015, la 18:36, Joe Shirk <[hidden email]> a scris:

I have been using TW Classic for some time myself, mostly for simple interactive resumes that are filterable by category. I never managed to use it for much outside of the hosted version on tiddlyspace, and in the corporate environment where it was too much to ask for a wiki server, i could share and collaborate with a few people on the intranet only if I could get them to use firefox. but here is where i think the next big thing we have been waiting to become a reality for a while: a decentralized, serverless wiki. This project has much promise but when I think of it being implemented in Amber, I get much more excited:




On Monday, February 9, 2015 at 7:51:00 AM UTC-5, Mircea S. wrote:
Hello everyone,

I'm intruding on your patience again. I had this spark of insight late last night and I wanted to tell you all about it so I hope this goes through, the mailinglist seems to lag behind and my e-mails are probably moderated arriving a day late sometimes.

I would like to discuss an interesting use case for Amber. 

For a long time I've been using this single page entirely Javascript wiki app called TiddlyWiki5. It can be installed on a NodeJS server and act as a collaboration platform. Source code here <a href="https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2FJermolene%2FTiddlyWiki5\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNE1OmKWMVPr-V7uwpfjC9wahccYsw';return true;" onclick="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2FJermolene%2FTiddlyWiki5\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNE1OmKWMVPr-V7uwpfjC9wahccYsw';return true;">https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5 with instructions on how to install here <a href="http://tiddlywiki.com/#Installing%20TiddlyWiki%20on%20Node.js" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Ftiddlywiki.com%2F%23Installing%2520TiddlyWiki%2520on%2520Node.js\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNF6HtXYnUx6DMfglMBDfi1AeDdMlw';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Ftiddlywiki.com%2F%23Installing%2520TiddlyWiki%2520on%2520Node.js\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNF6HtXYnUx6DMfglMBDfi1AeDdMlw';return true;">http://tiddlywiki.com/#Installing%20TiddlyWiki%20on%20Node.js

Amber is "basically" an entirely Javascript app too. It can alse be installed on a NodeJS backend and also and act as a development hub to that particular app. Source code here <a href="http://tiddlywiki.com/#Installing%20TiddlyWiki%20on%20Node.js" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Ftiddlywiki.com%2F%23Installing%2520TiddlyWiki%2520on%2520Node.js\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNF6HtXYnUx6DMfglMBDfi1AeDdMlw';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Ftiddlywiki.com%2F%23Installing%2520TiddlyWiki%2520on%2520Node.js\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNF6HtXYnUx6DMfglMBDfi1AeDdMlw';return true;">http://tiddlywiki.com/#Installing%20TiddlyWiki%20on%20Node.js with instructions on how to install here <a href="http://docs.amber-lang.net/faq.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fdocs.amber-lang.net%2Ffaq.html\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNELR8gEA2fyAR4pEknvj95Num0opw';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fdocs.amber-lang.net%2Ffaq.html\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNELR8gEA2fyAR4pEknvj95Num0opw';return true;">http://docs.amber-lang.net/faq.html

But here is where the 'similarities' end. Unbeknownst to most is the fact that TiddlyWiki, being a Javascript app, also has a 'local' or 'single-file' mode where the entire app is stored in a .html file on your local storage. This 'single-file' mode is remarcably similar to what a .image file is to Pharo or Squeak Smalltalk.

How it works:
Enter the single-file, self modifying Javascript app TiddlyWiki. It is a single .html file <a href="http://tiddlywiki.com/empty.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Ftiddlywiki.com%2Fempty.html\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGFFc9DJ2htQpF_1_nxZaBnHTr0lg';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Ftiddlywiki.com%2Fempty.html\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGFFc9DJ2htQpF_1_nxZaBnHTr0lg';return true;">http://tiddlywiki.com/empty.html (right click to download an empty wiki). You double click this .html file to open it locally. Click the "+" sign on the right to add a "Tiddler" note and the Checkmark sign in the note to save it. If you close the page, all edits are lost.

Q: How do you save the modified Tiddlywiki, Javascript in the Web Browser is forbidden to access local resources?

A: Easy, you just click File - Save As from your Favorite Web Browser. A new .html file is created with your saved content which you can save over the old one.


Imagine if Amber were like this, and it essentially is that way today. Amber is client-side in its essence, and mainly used to develop single page designs. From what I see NodeJS is partly used as a persistence mechanism (along with other things) when running a "hosted" Amber website so one can commit code written in a "remote" Web Browser.


In theory the already compiled Amber code could be packaged together with accompanying HTML into a single file and run as is (if all it uses are page resources).


If one wanted, it could even include the IDE, together with the source code packaged inside the file, so you can modify the single-file Amber while it runs in the Web Browser, compile it and so on.


But wait there's more, here is where it becomes really interesting. Tiddlywiki goes even further:


Q: Yes, yes but wouldn't it be nice if it could save itself automagically every time I edit a method, or every time I commit a package?

A: Not so easy... But it's already been done. 

Believe it or not they even have Automatic Saving. but for that you need Firefox with the TiddlyFox <a href="https://addons.mozilla.org/ro/firefox/addon/tiddlyfox/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Faddons.mozilla.org%2Fro%2Ffirefox%2Faddon%2Ftiddlyfox%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFS-xPd8JBqrdvkjXbD44FS3iZfLw';return true;" onclick="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Faddons.mozilla.org%2Fro%2Ffirefox%2Faddon%2Ftiddlyfox%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFS-xPd8JBqrdvkjXbD44FS3iZfLw';return true;">https://addons.mozilla.org/ro/firefox/addon/tiddlyfox/ extension installed.

Now when you open your local file with Firefox (+TiddlyFox) you are asked if you want to enable local file saving for this file (it asks for every new file and remembers the ones you already added)

Done. Now Click the “+” sign to add a new Tiddler, edit it, click the checkmark to save it and now the top right corner lights up with a notification. Wiki saved.


* this is how TiddlyFox the extensions sets up an environment to save the file <a href="https://github.com/TiddlyWiki/TiddlyFox/blob/6cf9c9ee6e128a681548529316b3d31a8362fe0d/content/overlay.js#L84" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2FTiddlyWiki%2FTiddlyFox%2Fblob%2F6cf9c9ee6e128a681548529316b3d31a8362fe0d%2Fcontent%2Foverlay.js%23L84\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFjgBokjEOmo9s1e_l3SnduTcW6fw';return true;" onclick="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2FTiddlyWiki%2FTiddlyFox%2Fblob%2F6cf9c9ee6e128a681548529316b3d31a8362fe0d%2Fcontent%2Foverlay.js%23L84\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFjgBokjEOmo9s1e_l3SnduTcW6fw';return true;">https://github.com/TiddlyWiki/TiddlyFox/blob/6cf9c9ee6e128a681548529316b3d31a8362fe0d/content/overlay.js#L84


Using Amber and Helios IDE in a local development scenario for rapid prototyping, have you ever considered this?

I can't see exactly if you guys have considered this scenario but it seemed rather interesting. 


Good parts I can see:


1. From a UX point if view this is similar to the One Click Experience in Pharo. Download one file, double click, it works. Essentially the .html file is the "image" and every Browser on the planet is the "VM". After you experiment and develop locally you can the your code out and put it in the hosted site.


2. Very good for beginers to test out quickly, deploy, delete, restart. Imagine a portable file like this with Amber-Athens testing out code for manipulating vectors. 


3. Ability to have tens of versions of the same code by just copying the file instead of creating new apps on the server. 


Thank you for taking the time to read this far. 


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Re: Amber hosted locally for rapid prototyping and experiments

Manfred Kröhnert
Hi Mircea,

could you point me to the thread on the Amber mailing list about the detailed discussion you had.
That would be great.
Apparently I missed those emails. :-)

I have to say that I was thinking about something similar some time ago.
Then I started to dig into how this could be achieved
and ended up with a similar opinion to what Craig said about security issues and involved hacks.

However, to get to something similar I read that it is at least required to make your application offline aware.
Maybe that would be a first step in this direction to make it easy for Amber applications to also work in an offline mode.

Then it would probably be possible to save files with one of the methods mentioned here:

@herby what do you think?

Thanks,
Manfred

On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 3:15 PM, Mircea S. <[hidden email]> wrote:
I've done some digging around in the Javascript in TiddlyWiki and figured out most of the inner workings of the save process. 

Also had a detailed discussion with H Hizel and S Sastre here in the list to see if this is possible. 

If there is confirmation from dev people higher up that this scenario is interesting and will be supported if we make the effort to add it I don't mind putting up some of the resources to encourage development. 

Alas I can't figure out if this is a 10 hour job, a 30 hour job or in the hundreds. 



Pe 18 feb. 2015, la 18:36, Joe Shirk <[hidden email]> a scris:

I have been using TW Classic for some time myself, mostly for simple interactive resumes that are filterable by category. I never managed to use it for much outside of the hosted version on tiddlyspace, and in the corporate environment where it was too much to ask for a wiki server, i could share and collaborate with a few people on the intranet only if I could get them to use firefox. but here is where i think the next big thing we have been waiting to become a reality for a while: a decentralized, serverless wiki. This project has much promise but when I think of it being implemented in Amber, I get much more excited:




On Monday, February 9, 2015 at 7:51:00 AM UTC-5, Mircea S. wrote:
Hello everyone,

I'm intruding on your patience again. I had this spark of insight late last night and I wanted to tell you all about it so I hope this goes through, the mailinglist seems to lag behind and my e-mails are probably moderated arriving a day late sometimes.

I would like to discuss an interesting use case for Amber. 

For a long time I've been using this single page entirely Javascript wiki app called TiddlyWiki5. It can be installed on a NodeJS server and act as a collaboration platform. Source code here https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5 with instructions on how to install here http://tiddlywiki.com/#Installing%20TiddlyWiki%20on%20Node.js

Amber is "basically" an entirely Javascript app too. It can alse be installed on a NodeJS backend and also and act as a development hub to that particular app. Source code here http://tiddlywiki.com/#Installing%20TiddlyWiki%20on%20Node.js with instructions on how to install here http://docs.amber-lang.net/faq.html

But here is where the 'similarities' end. Unbeknownst to most is the fact that TiddlyWiki, being a Javascript app, also has a 'local' or 'single-file' mode where the entire app is stored in a .html file on your local storage. This 'single-file' mode is remarcably similar to what a .image file is to Pharo or Squeak Smalltalk.

How it works:
Enter the single-file, self modifying Javascript app TiddlyWiki. It is a single .html file http://tiddlywiki.com/empty.html (right click to download an empty wiki). You double click this .html file to open it locally. Click the "+" sign on the right to add a "Tiddler" note and the Checkmark sign in the note to save it. If you close the page, all edits are lost.

Q: How do you save the modified Tiddlywiki, Javascript in the Web Browser is forbidden to access local resources?

A: Easy, you just click File - Save As from your Favorite Web Browser. A new .html file is created with your saved content which you can save over the old one.


Imagine if Amber were like this, and it essentially is that way today. Amber is client-side in its essence, and mainly used to develop single page designs. From what I see NodeJS is partly used as a persistence mechanism (along with other things) when running a "hosted" Amber website so one can commit code written in a "remote" Web Browser.


In theory the already compiled Amber code could be packaged together with accompanying HTML into a single file and run as is (if all it uses are page resources).


If one wanted, it could even include the IDE, together with the source code packaged inside the file, so you can modify the single-file Amber while it runs in the Web Browser, compile it and so on.


But wait there's more, here is where it becomes really interesting. Tiddlywiki goes even further:


Q: Yes, yes but wouldn't it be nice if it could save itself automagically every time I edit a method, or every time I commit a package?

A: Not so easy... But it's already been done. 

Believe it or not they even have Automatic Saving. but for that you need Firefox with the TiddlyFox https://addons.mozilla.org/ro/firefox/addon/tiddlyfox/ extension installed.

Now when you open your local file with Firefox (+TiddlyFox) you are asked if you want to enable local file saving for this file (it asks for every new file and remembers the ones you already added)

Done. Now Click the “+” sign to add a new Tiddler, edit it, click the checkmark to save it and now the top right corner lights up with a notification. Wiki saved.


* this is how TiddlyFox the extensions sets up an environment to save the file https://github.com/TiddlyWiki/TiddlyFox/blob/6cf9c9ee6e128a681548529316b3d31a8362fe0d/content/overlay.js#L84


Using Amber and Helios IDE in a local development scenario for rapid prototyping, have you ever considered this?

I can't see exactly if you guys have considered this scenario but it seemed rather interesting. 


Good parts I can see:


1. From a UX point if view this is similar to the One Click Experience in Pharo. Download one file, double click, it works. Essentially the .html file is the "image" and every Browser on the planet is the "VM". After you experiment and develop locally you can the your code out and put it in the hosted site.


2. Very good for beginers to test out quickly, deploy, delete, restart. Imagine a portable file like this with Amber-Athens testing out code for manipulating vectors. 


3. Ability to have tens of versions of the same code by just copying the file instead of creating new apps on the server. 


Thank you for taking the time to read this far. 


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Re: Amber hosted locally for rapid prototyping and experiments

Herby Vojčík


Manfred Kröhnert wrote:

> Hi Mircea,
>
> could you point me to the thread on the Amber mailing list about the
> detailed discussion you had.
> That would be great.
> Apparently I missed those emails. :-)
>
> I have to say that I was thinking about something similar some time ago.
> Then I started to dig into how this could be achieved
> and ended up with a similar opinion to what Craig said about security
> issues and involved hacks.
>
> However, to get to something similar I read that it is at least required
> to make your application offline aware.
> Maybe that would be a first step in this direction to make it easy for
> Amber applications to also work in an offline mode.
>
> Then it would probably be possible to save files with one of the methods
> mentioned here:
> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/13405129/javascript-create-and-save-file
> http://eligrey.com/demos/FileSaver.js/
>
> @herby what do you think?

Yes.

But it's hard to do properly, it would be fine if it wasn't two totally
separate systems there. Properly integrating (and redesigning)
import-export-transport thing may be needed.

As for compatibility, I would just use any W3C-blessed API, even if it
only worked on a handful of browsers. No fallbacks like flash or whoknows.

Helios is harder to do this way, though. One of the first step should
probably be to make Helios injectable from parent app directly into html
of the popup window / overlaid iframe (even if it would only be a script
to load helios's the.js or something similar).

> Thanks,
> Manfred
>
> On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 3:15 PM, Mircea S. <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     I've done some digging around in the Javascript in TiddlyWiki and
>     figured out most of the inner workings of the save process.
>
>     Also had a detailed discussion with H Hizel and S Sastre here in the
>     list to see if this is possible.
>
>     If there is confirmation from dev people higher up that this
>     scenario is interesting and will be supported if we make the effort
>     to add it I don't mind putting up some of the resources to encourage
>     development.
>
>     Alas I can't figure out if this is a 10 hour job, a 30 hour job or
>     in the hundreds.
>
>
>
>     Pe 18 feb. 2015, la 18:36, Joe Shirk <[hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>> a scris:
>
>>     I have been using TW Classic for some time myself, mostly for
>>     simple interactive resumes that are filterable by category. I
>>     never managed to use it for much outside of the hosted version on
>>     tiddlyspace, and in the corporate environment where it was too
>>     much to ask for a wiki server, i could share and collaborate with
>>     a few people on the intranet only if I could get them to use
>>     firefox. but here is where i think the next big thing we have been
>>     waiting to become a reality for a while: a decentralized,
>>     serverless wiki. This project has much promise but when I think of
>>     it being implemented in Amber, I get much more excited:
>>
>>     http://p2pvalue.eu/blog/awakening-decentralised-real-time-collaboration
>>
>>
>>
>>     On Monday, February 9, 2015 at 7:51:00 AM UTC-5, Mircea S. wrote:
>>
>>         Hello everyone,
>>
>>         I'm intruding on your patience again. I had this spark of
>>         insight late last night and I wanted to tell you all about it
>>         so I hope this goes through, the mailinglist seems to lag
>>         behind and my e-mails are probably moderated arriving a day
>>         late sometimes.
>>
>>         I would like to discuss an interesting use case for Amber.
>>
>>         For a long time I've been using this single page entirely
>>         Javascript wiki app called TiddlyWiki5. It can be installed on
>>         a NodeJS server and act as a collaboration platform. Source
>>         code here https://github.com/__Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5
>>         <https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5> with instructions
>>         on how to install here
>>         <a href="http://tiddlywiki.com/#__Installing%20TiddlyWiki%20on%__20Node.js">http://tiddlywiki.com/#__Installing%20TiddlyWiki%20on%__20Node.js
>>         <http://tiddlywiki.com/#Installing%20TiddlyWiki%20on%20Node.js>
>>
>>         Amber is "basically" an entirely Javascript app too. It can
>>         alse be installed on a NodeJS backend and also and act as a
>>         development hub to that particular app. Source code here
>>         <a href="http://tiddlywiki.com/#__Installing%20TiddlyWiki%20on%__20Node.js">http://tiddlywiki.com/#__Installing%20TiddlyWiki%20on%__20Node.js
>>         <http://tiddlywiki.com/#Installing%20TiddlyWiki%20on%20Node.js> with
>>         instructions on how to install here
>>         http://docs.amber-lang.net/__faq.html
>>         <http://docs.amber-lang.net/faq.html>
>>
>>         But here is where the 'similarities' end. Unbeknownst to most
>>         is the fact that TiddlyWiki, being a Javascript app, also has
>>         a 'local' or 'single-file' mode where the entire app is stored
>>         in a .html file on your local storage. This 'single-file' mode
>>         is remarcably similar to what a .image file is to Pharo or
>>         Squeak Smalltalk.
>>
>>         How it works:
>>         Enter the single-file, self modifying Javascript app
>>         TiddlyWiki. It is a single .html file
>>         http://tiddlywiki.com/__empty.html
>>         <http://tiddlywiki.com/empty.html> (right click to download an
>>         empty wiki). You double click this .html file to open it
>>         locally. Click the "+" sign on the right to add a "Tiddler"
>>         note and the Checkmark sign in the note to save it. If you
>>         close the page, all edits are lost.
>>
>>         Q: How do you save the modified Tiddlywiki, Javascript in the
>>         Web Browser is forbidden to access local resources?
>>
>>         A: Easy, you just click File - Save As from your Favorite Web
>>         Browser. A new .html file is created with your saved content
>>         which you can save over the old one.
>>
>>
>>         Imagine if Amber were like this, and it essentially is that
>>         way today. Amber is client-side in its essence, and mainly
>>         used to develop single page designs. From what I see NodeJS is
>>         partly used as a persistence mechanism (along with other
>>         things) when running a "hosted" Amber website so one can
>>         commit code written in a "remote" Web Browser.
>>
>>
>>         In theory the already compiled Amber code could be packaged
>>         together with accompanying HTML into a single file and run as
>>         is (if all it uses are page resources).
>>
>>
>>         If one wanted, it could even include the IDE, together with
>>         the source code packaged inside the file, so you can modify
>>         the single-file Amber while it runs in the Web Browser,
>>         compile it and so on.
>>
>>
>>         *But wait there's more, here is where it becomes really
>>         interesting. Tiddlywiki goes even further:*
>>
>>
>>         Q: Yes, yes but wouldn't it be nice if it could save itself
>>         automagically every time I edit a method, or every time I
>>         commit a package?
>>
>>         A: Not so easy... But it's already been done.
>>
>>         Believe it or not they even have Automatic Saving. but for
>>         that you need Firefox with the TiddlyFox
>>         https://addons.__mozilla.org/ro/firefox/addon/__tiddlyfox/
>>         <https://addons.mozilla.org/ro/firefox/addon/tiddlyfox/> extension
>>         installed.
>>
>>         Now when you open your local file with Firefox (+TiddlyFox)
>>         you are asked if you want to enable local file saving for this
>>         file (it asks for every new file and remembers the ones you
>>         already added)
>>
>>         Done. Now Click the “+” sign to add a new Tiddler, edit it,
>>         click the checkmark to save it and now the top right corner
>>         lights up with a notification. Wiki saved.
>>
>>
>>         * this is how TiddlyFox the extensions sets up an environment
>>         to save the file
>>         https://github.com/__TiddlyWiki/TiddlyFox/blob/__6cf9c9ee6e128a681548529316b3d3__1a8362fe0d/content/overlay.js#__L84
>>         <https://github.com/TiddlyWiki/TiddlyFox/blob/6cf9c9ee6e128a681548529316b3d31a8362fe0d/content/overlay.js#L84>
>>
>>
>>         Using Amber and Helios IDE in a local development scenario for
>>         rapid prototyping, have you ever considered this?
>>
>>         I can't see exactly if you guys have considered this scenario
>>         but it seemed rather interesting.
>>
>>
>>         Good parts I can see:
>>
>>
>>         1. From a UX point if view this is similar to the One Click
>>         Experience in Pharo. Download one file, double click, it
>>         works. Essentially the .html file is the "image" and every
>>         Browser on the planet is the "VM". After you experiment and
>>         develop locally you can the your code out and put it in the
>>         hosted site.
>>
>>
>>         2. Very good for beginers to test out quickly, deploy, delete,
>>         restart. Imagine a portable file like this with Amber-Athens
>>         testing out code for manipulating vectors.
>>
>>
>>         3. Ability to have tens of versions of the same code by just
>>         copying the file instead of creating new apps on the server.
>>
>>
>>         Thank you for taking the time to read this far.
>>
>>
>>     --
>>     You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>     Groups "amber-lang" group.
>>     To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
>>     send an email to [hidden email]
>>     <mailto:[hidden email]>.
>>     For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>
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Re: Amber hosted locally for rapid prototyping and experiments

Herby Vojčík


Herby Vojčík wrote:

>
>
> Manfred Kröhnert wrote:
>> Hi Mircea,
>>
>> could you point me to the thread on the Amber mailing list about the
>> detailed discussion you had.
>> That would be great.
>> Apparently I missed those emails. :-)
>>
>> I have to say that I was thinking about something similar some time ago.
>> Then I started to dig into how this could be achieved
>> and ended up with a similar opinion to what Craig said about security
>> issues and involved hacks.
>>
>> However, to get to something similar I read that it is at least required
>> to make your application offline aware.
>> Maybe that would be a first step in this direction to make it easy for
>> Amber applications to also work in an offline mode.
>>
>> Then it would probably be possible to save files with one of the methods
>> mentioned here:
>> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/13405129/javascript-create-and-save-file
>>
>> http://eligrey.com/demos/FileSaver.js/
>>
>> @herby what do you think?
>
> Yes.

OTOH.

Problem no. 1 is how to get back to saved files, per package. Once you
load it from file://image.html, you cannot HTTP PUT into server (CORS etc.).

Problem no. 2: you kill VCS. You have the nice image-feeling, but you do
lots of changes and are not doing "commit often" since you do not have
files that can be diffed in the first place (yes, I am talking git; even
Pharo is moving to git). Doing VCS in-image is ridicilous IMO, as you
cannot do everything you can do in cli (basic things like commit,
revert, reset, branching etc. can be there of course; but ahain, how
will you perform it at all?). Taking VCS out of the way is so big an
antipattern for me, that I would be willing to change previous "yes" to
"no", even if I see this thins is cool. But wrong. IF we want to be able
to VCS, we need to have that bunch of files to commit often anyway, in
which case, what added value this thing (single loadable and saveable
.html) bring (and it bring complications to maintain two different
copies of the same thing)?

> But it's hard to do properly, it would be fine if it wasn't two totally
> separate systems there. Properly integrating (and redesigning)
> import-export-transport thing may be needed.
>
> As for compatibility, I would just use any W3C-blessed API, even if it
> only worked on a handful of browsers. No fallbacks like flash or whoknows.
>
> Helios is harder to do this way, though. One of the first step should
> probably be to make Helios injectable from parent app directly into html
> of the popup window / overlaid iframe (even if it would only be a script
> to load helios's the.js or something similar).
>
>> Thanks,
>> Manfred
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 3:15 PM, Mircea S. <[hidden email]
>> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>
>> I've done some digging around in the Javascript in TiddlyWiki and
>> figured out most of the inner workings of the save process.
>>
>> Also had a detailed discussion with H Hizel and S Sastre here in the
>> list to see if this is possible.
>>
>> If there is confirmation from dev people higher up that this
>> scenario is interesting and will be supported if we make the effort
>> to add it I don't mind putting up some of the resources to encourage
>> development.
>>
>> Alas I can't figure out if this is a 10 hour job, a 30 hour job or
>> in the hundreds.
>>
>>
>>
>> Pe 18 feb. 2015, la 18:36, Joe Shirk <[hidden email]
>> <mailto:[hidden email]>> a scris:
>>
>>> I have been using TW Classic for some time myself, mostly for
>>> simple interactive resumes that are filterable by category. I
>>> never managed to use it for much outside of the hosted version on
>>> tiddlyspace, and in the corporate environment where it was too
>>> much to ask for a wiki server, i could share and collaborate with
>>> a few people on the intranet only if I could get them to use
>>> firefox. but here is where i think the next big thing we have been
>>> waiting to become a reality for a while: a decentralized,
>>> serverless wiki. This project has much promise but when I think of
>>> it being implemented in Amber, I get much more excited:
>>>
>>> http://p2pvalue.eu/blog/awakening-decentralised-real-time-collaboration
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Monday, February 9, 2015 at 7:51:00 AM UTC-5, Mircea S. wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello everyone,
>>>
>>> I'm intruding on your patience again. I had this spark of
>>> insight late last night and I wanted to tell you all about it
>>> so I hope this goes through, the mailinglist seems to lag
>>> behind and my e-mails are probably moderated arriving a day
>>> late sometimes.
>>>
>>> I would like to discuss an interesting use case for Amber.
>>>
>>> For a long time I've been using this single page entirely
>>> Javascript wiki app called TiddlyWiki5. It can be installed on
>>> a NodeJS server and act as a collaboration platform. Source
>>> code here https://github.com/__Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5
>>> <https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5> with instructions
>>> on how to install here
>>> <a href="http://tiddlywiki.com/#__Installing%20TiddlyWiki%20on%__20Node.js">http://tiddlywiki.com/#__Installing%20TiddlyWiki%20on%__20Node.js
>>> <http://tiddlywiki.com/#Installing%20TiddlyWiki%20on%20Node.js>
>>>
>>> Amber is "basically" an entirely Javascript app too. It can
>>> alse be installed on a NodeJS backend and also and act as a
>>> development hub to that particular app. Source code here
>>> <a href="http://tiddlywiki.com/#__Installing%20TiddlyWiki%20on%__20Node.js">http://tiddlywiki.com/#__Installing%20TiddlyWiki%20on%__20Node.js
>>> <http://tiddlywiki.com/#Installing%20TiddlyWiki%20on%20Node.js> with
>>> instructions on how to install here
>>> http://docs.amber-lang.net/__faq.html
>>> <http://docs.amber-lang.net/faq.html>
>>>
>>> But here is where the 'similarities' end. Unbeknownst to most
>>> is the fact that TiddlyWiki, being a Javascript app, also has
>>> a 'local' or 'single-file' mode where the entire app is stored
>>> in a .html file on your local storage. This 'single-file' mode
>>> is remarcably similar to what a .image file is to Pharo or
>>> Squeak Smalltalk.
>>>
>>> How it works:
>>> Enter the single-file, self modifying Javascript app
>>> TiddlyWiki. It is a single .html file
>>> http://tiddlywiki.com/__empty.html
>>> <http://tiddlywiki.com/empty.html> (right click to download an
>>> empty wiki). You double click this .html file to open it
>>> locally. Click the "+" sign on the right to add a "Tiddler"
>>> note and the Checkmark sign in the note to save it. If you
>>> close the page, all edits are lost.
>>>
>>> Q: How do you save the modified Tiddlywiki, Javascript in the
>>> Web Browser is forbidden to access local resources?
>>>
>>> A: Easy, you just click File - Save As from your Favorite Web
>>> Browser. A new .html file is created with your saved content
>>> which you can save over the old one.
>>>
>>>
>>> Imagine if Amber were like this, and it essentially is that
>>> way today. Amber is client-side in its essence, and mainly
>>> used to develop single page designs. From what I see NodeJS is
>>> partly used as a persistence mechanism (along with other
>>> things) when running a "hosted" Amber website so one can
>>> commit code written in a "remote" Web Browser.
>>>
>>>
>>> In theory the already compiled Amber code could be packaged
>>> together with accompanying HTML into a single file and run as
>>> is (if all it uses are page resources).
>>>
>>>
>>> If one wanted, it could even include the IDE, together with
>>> the source code packaged inside the file, so you can modify
>>> the single-file Amber while it runs in the Web Browser,
>>> compile it and so on.
>>>
>>>
>>> *But wait there's more, here is where it becomes really
>>> interesting. Tiddlywiki goes even further:*
>>>
>>>
>>> Q: Yes, yes but wouldn't it be nice if it could save itself
>>> automagically every time I edit a method, or every time I
>>> commit a package?
>>>
>>> A: Not so easy... But it's already been done.
>>>
>>> Believe it or not they even have Automatic Saving. but for
>>> that you need Firefox with the TiddlyFox
>>> https://addons.__mozilla.org/ro/firefox/addon/__tiddlyfox/
>>> <https://addons.mozilla.org/ro/firefox/addon/tiddlyfox/> extension
>>> installed.
>>>
>>> Now when you open your local file with Firefox (+TiddlyFox)
>>> you are asked if you want to enable local file saving for this
>>> file (it asks for every new file and remembers the ones you
>>> already added)
>>>
>>> Done. Now Click the “+” sign to add a new Tiddler, edit it,
>>> click the checkmark to save it and now the top right corner
>>> lights up with a notification. Wiki saved.
>>>
>>>
>>> * this is how TiddlyFox the extensions sets up an environment
>>> to save the file
>>> https://github.com/__TiddlyWiki/TiddlyFox/blob/__6cf9c9ee6e128a681548529316b3d3__1a8362fe0d/content/overlay.js#__L84
>>>
>>> <https://github.com/TiddlyWiki/TiddlyFox/blob/6cf9c9ee6e128a681548529316b3d31a8362fe0d/content/overlay.js#L84>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Using Amber and Helios IDE in a local development scenario for
>>> rapid prototyping, have you ever considered this?
>>>
>>> I can't see exactly if you guys have considered this scenario
>>> but it seemed rather interesting.
>>>
>>>
>>> Good parts I can see:
>>>
>>>
>>> 1. From a UX point if view this is similar to the One Click
>>> Experience in Pharo. Download one file, double click, it
>>> works. Essentially the .html file is the "image" and every
>>> Browser on the planet is the "VM". After you experiment and
>>> develop locally you can the your code out and put it in the
>>> hosted site.
>>>
>>>
>>> 2. Very good for beginers to test out quickly, deploy, delete,
>>> restart. Imagine a portable file like this with Amber-Athens
>>> testing out code for manipulating vectors.
>>>
>>>
>>> 3. Ability to have tens of versions of the same code by just
>>> copying the file instead of creating new apps on the server.
>>>
>>>
>>> Thank you for taking the time to read this far.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> Groups "amber-lang" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
>>> send an email to [hidden email]
>>> <mailto:[hidden email]>.
>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>> Groups "amber-lang" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
>> send an email to [hidden email]
>> <mailto:[hidden email]>.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>>
>> --
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>> Groups "amber-lang" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>> an email to [hidden email]
>> <mailto:[hidden email]>.
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>

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Re: Amber hosted locally for rapid prototyping and experiments

Manfred Kröhnert
Hello Mircea,

I wanted to check back if you would be interested in helping make Amber applications offline aware as a first step.

Best,
Manfred


On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 12:31 PM, Herby Vojčík <[hidden email]> wrote:


Herby Vojčík wrote:


Manfred Kröhnert wrote:
Hi Mircea,

could you point me to the thread on the Amber mailing list about the
detailed discussion you had.
That would be great.
Apparently I missed those emails. :-)

I have to say that I was thinking about something similar some time ago.
Then I started to dig into how this could be achieved
and ended up with a similar opinion to what Craig said about security
issues and involved hacks.

However, to get to something similar I read that it is at least required
to make your application offline aware.
Maybe that would be a first step in this direction to make it easy for
Amber applications to also work in an offline mode.

Then it would probably be possible to save files with one of the methods
mentioned here:
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/13405129/javascript-create-and-save-file

http://eligrey.com/demos/FileSaver.js/

@herby what do you think?

Yes.

OTOH.

Problem no. 1 is how to get back to saved files, per package. Once you load it from file://image.html, you cannot HTTP PUT into server (CORS etc.).

Problem no. 2: you kill VCS. You have the nice image-feeling, but you do lots of changes and are not doing "commit often" since you do not have files that can be diffed in the first place (yes, I am talking git; even Pharo is moving to git). Doing VCS in-image is ridicilous IMO, as you cannot do everything you can do in cli (basic things like commit, revert, reset, branching etc. can be there of course; but ahain, how will you perform it at all?). Taking VCS out of the way is so big an antipattern for me, that I would be willing to change previous "yes" to "no", even if I see this thins is cool. But wrong. IF we want to be able to VCS, we need to have that bunch of files to commit often anyway, in which case, what added value this thing (single loadable and saveable .html) bring (and it bring complications to maintain two different copies of the same thing)?


But it's hard to do properly, it would be fine if it wasn't two totally
separate systems there. Properly integrating (and redesigning)
import-export-transport thing may be needed.

As for compatibility, I would just use any W3C-blessed API, even if it
only worked on a handful of browsers. No fallbacks like flash or whoknows.

Helios is harder to do this way, though. One of the first step should
probably be to make Helios injectable from parent app directly into html
of the popup window / overlaid iframe (even if it would only be a script
to load helios's the.js or something similar).

Thanks,
Manfred

On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 3:15 PM, Mircea S. <[hidden email]
<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:

I've done some digging around in the Javascript in TiddlyWiki and
figured out most of the inner workings of the save process.

Also had a detailed discussion with H Hizel and S Sastre here in the
list to see if this is possible.

If there is confirmation from dev people higher up that this
scenario is interesting and will be supported if we make the effort
to add it I don't mind putting up some of the resources to encourage
development.

Alas I can't figure out if this is a 10 hour job, a 30 hour job or
in the hundreds.



Pe 18 feb. 2015, la 18:36, Joe Shirk <[hidden email]
<mailto:[hidden email]>> a scris:

I have been using TW Classic for some time myself, mostly for
simple interactive resumes that are filterable by category. I
never managed to use it for much outside of the hosted version on
tiddlyspace, and in the corporate environment where it was too
much to ask for a wiki server, i could share and collaborate with
a few people on the intranet only if I could get them to use
firefox. but here is where i think the next big thing we have been
waiting to become a reality for a while: a decentralized,
serverless wiki. This project has much promise but when I think of
it being implemented in Amber, I get much more excited:

http://p2pvalue.eu/blog/awakening-decentralised-real-time-collaboration



On Monday, February 9, 2015 at 7:51:00 AM UTC-5, Mircea S. wrote:

Hello everyone,

I'm intruding on your patience again. I had this spark of
insight late last night and I wanted to tell you all about it
so I hope this goes through, the mailinglist seems to lag
behind and my e-mails are probably moderated arriving a day
late sometimes.

I would like to discuss an interesting use case for Amber.

For a long time I've been using this single page entirely
Javascript wiki app called TiddlyWiki5. It can be installed on
a NodeJS server and act as a collaboration platform. Source
code here https://github.com/__Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5
<https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5> with instructions
on how to install here
<a href="http://tiddlywiki.com/#__Installing%20TiddlyWiki%20on%__20Node.js" target="_blank">http://tiddlywiki.com/#__Installing%20TiddlyWiki%20on%__20Node.js
<http://tiddlywiki.com/#Installing%20TiddlyWiki%20on%20Node.js>

Amber is "basically" an entirely Javascript app too. It can
alse be installed on a NodeJS backend and also and act as a
development hub to that particular app. Source code here
<a href="http://tiddlywiki.com/#__Installing%20TiddlyWiki%20on%__20Node.js" target="_blank">http://tiddlywiki.com/#__Installing%20TiddlyWiki%20on%__20Node.js
<http://tiddlywiki.com/#Installing%20TiddlyWiki%20on%20Node.js> with
instructions on how to install here
http://docs.amber-lang.net/__faq.html
<http://docs.amber-lang.net/faq.html>

But here is where the 'similarities' end. Unbeknownst to most
is the fact that TiddlyWiki, being a Javascript app, also has
a 'local' or 'single-file' mode where the entire app is stored
in a .html file on your local storage. This 'single-file' mode
is remarcably similar to what a .image file is to Pharo or
Squeak Smalltalk.

How it works:
Enter the single-file, self modifying Javascript app
TiddlyWiki. It is a single .html file
http://tiddlywiki.com/__empty.html
<http://tiddlywiki.com/empty.html> (right click to download an
empty wiki). You double click this .html file to open it
locally. Click the "+" sign on the right to add a "Tiddler"
note and the Checkmark sign in the note to save it. If you
close the page, all edits are lost.

Q: How do you save the modified Tiddlywiki, Javascript in the
Web Browser is forbidden to access local resources?

A: Easy, you just click File - Save As from your Favorite Web
Browser. A new .html file is created with your saved content
which you can save over the old one.


Imagine if Amber were like this, and it essentially is that
way today. Amber is client-side in its essence, and mainly
used to develop single page designs. From what I see NodeJS is
partly used as a persistence mechanism (along with other
things) when running a "hosted" Amber website so one can
commit code written in a "remote" Web Browser.


In theory the already compiled Amber code could be packaged
together with accompanying HTML into a single file and run as
is (if all it uses are page resources).


If one wanted, it could even include the IDE, together with
the source code packaged inside the file, so you can modify
the single-file Amber while it runs in the Web Browser,
compile it and so on.


*But wait there's more, here is where it becomes really
interesting. Tiddlywiki goes even further:*


Q: Yes, yes but wouldn't it be nice if it could save itself
automagically every time I edit a method, or every time I
commit a package?

A: Not so easy... But it's already been done.

Believe it or not they even have Automatic Saving. but for
that you need Firefox with the TiddlyFox
https://addons.__mozilla.org/ro/firefox/addon/__tiddlyfox/
<https://addons.mozilla.org/ro/firefox/addon/tiddlyfox/> extension
installed.

Now when you open your local file with Firefox (+TiddlyFox)
you are asked if you want to enable local file saving for this
file (it asks for every new file and remembers the ones you
already added)

Done. Now Click the “+” sign to add a new Tiddler, edit it,
click the checkmark to save it and now the top right corner
lights up with a notification. Wiki saved.


* this is how TiddlyFox the extensions sets up an environment
to save the file
https://github.com/__TiddlyWiki/TiddlyFox/blob/__6cf9c9ee6e128a681548529316b3d3__1a8362fe0d/content/overlay.js#__L84

<https://github.com/TiddlyWiki/TiddlyFox/blob/6cf9c9ee6e128a681548529316b3d31a8362fe0d/content/overlay.js#L84>



Using Amber and Helios IDE in a local development scenario for
rapid prototyping, have you ever considered this?

I can't see exactly if you guys have considered this scenario
but it seemed rather interesting.


Good parts I can see:


1. From a UX point if view this is similar to the One Click
Experience in Pharo. Download one file, double click, it
works. Essentially the .html file is the "image" and every
Browser on the planet is the "VM". After you experiment and
develop locally you can the your code out and put it in the
hosted site.


2. Very good for beginers to test out quickly, deploy, delete,
restart. Imagine a portable file like this with Amber-Athens
testing out code for manipulating vectors.


3. Ability to have tens of versions of the same code by just
copying the file instead of creating new apps on the server.


Thank you for taking the time to read this far.


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Re: Amber hosted locally for rapid prototyping and experiments

Joe Shirk
In reply to this post by Joe Shirk
This looks not-too future: ALEXANDRIA
I'm not too thrilled about the 'coin' aspect, but the blockchain underpinnings are here today.


On Sun, Mar 15, 2015 at 2:11 PM, Mir S. <[hidden email]> wrote:
True. Actually, one of my main objectives is to “port” the tiddlywiki usability into Smalltalk so that the code behind it is more readable. Being able to interact with a “live” web page with Javascript is vary similar to how you are able to interact with a live Smalltalk image is Squeak or Pharo.

As for the article you posted It seems very “into the future” for me. Serverless collaboration between browsers seems very complicated to achieve.

I would settle making Amber capable of offline operation, maybe not a single file like tiddlywiki. Just so that when you open the index.html of any folder or subfolder in your project you should be able to use it and save it as it is, without the need of a node.js server. Once this is done, we can properly study serverless implementations of anything we want.

Pe 18 feb. 2015, la 19:04, Joe Shirk <[hidden email]> a scris:


I have been using TW Classic for some time myself, mostly for simple interactive resumes that are filterable by category. I never managed to use it for much outside of the hosted version on tiddlyspace, and in the corporate environment where it was too much to ask for a wiki server, i could share and collaborate with a few people on the intranet only if I could get them to use firefox. but here is where i think the next big thing we have been waiting to become a reality for a while: a decentralized, serverless wiki. This project has much promise but when I think of it being implemented in Amber, I get much more excited:


On Monday, February 9, 2015 at 7:51:00 AM UTC-5, Mircea S. wrote:
Hello everyone,

I'm intruding on your patience again. I had this spark of insight late last night and I wanted to tell you all about it so I hope this goes through, the mailinglist seems to lag behind and my e-mails are probably moderated arriving a day late sometimes.

I would like to discuss an interesting use case for Amber. 

For a long time I've been using this single page entirely Javascript wiki app called TiddlyWiki5. It can be installed on a NodeJS server and act as a collaboration platform. Source code here https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5 with instructions on how to install here http://tiddlywiki.com/#Installing%20TiddlyWiki%20on%20Node.js




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Re: Amber hosted locally for rapid prototyping and experiments

Joe Shirk

killer app that should be in Amber

http://allcoinsnews.com/2015/04/06/synereo-reveals-node-software-prototype-amp-crowdsale-rule-changes/

On Mar 16, 2015 9:19 PM, "Joe Shirk" <[hidden email]> wrote:
This looks not-too future: ALEXANDRIA
I'm not too thrilled about the 'coin' aspect, but the blockchain underpinnings are here today.


On Sun, Mar 15, 2015 at 2:11 PM, Mir S. <[hidden email]> wrote:
True. Actually, one of my main objectives is to “port” the tiddlywiki usability into Smalltalk so that the code behind it is more readable. Being able to interact with a “live” web page with Javascript is vary similar to how you are able to interact with a live Smalltalk image is Squeak or Pharo.

As for the article you posted It seems very “into the future” for me. Serverless collaboration between browsers seems very complicated to achieve.

I would settle making Amber capable of offline operation, maybe not a single file like tiddlywiki. Just so that when you open the index.html of any folder or subfolder in your project you should be able to use it and save it as it is, without the need of a node.js server. Once this is done, we can properly study serverless implementations of anything we want.

Pe 18 feb. 2015, la 19:04, Joe Shirk <[hidden email]> a scris:


I have been using TW Classic for some time myself, mostly for simple interactive resumes that are filterable by category. I never managed to use it for much outside of the hosted version on tiddlyspace, and in the corporate environment where it was too much to ask for a wiki server, i could share and collaborate with a few people on the intranet only if I could get them to use firefox. but here is where i think the next big thing we have been waiting to become a reality for a while: a decentralized, serverless wiki. This project has much promise but when I think of it being implemented in Amber, I get much more excited:


On Monday, February 9, 2015 at 7:51:00 AM UTC-5, Mircea S. wrote:
Hello everyone,

I'm intruding on your patience again. I had this spark of insight late last night and I wanted to tell you all about it so I hope this goes through, the mailinglist seems to lag behind and my e-mails are probably moderated arriving a day late sometimes.

I would like to discuss an interesting use case for Amber. 

For a long time I've been using this single page entirely Javascript wiki app called TiddlyWiki5. It can be installed on a NodeJS server and act as a collaboration platform. Source code here https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5 with instructions on how to install here http://tiddlywiki.com/#Installing%20TiddlyWiki%20on%20Node.js




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Gmail is unsecure. Why? See: EFF Surveillance Self-Defense Project

My preferred secure email address: infomaniac(at)i2pmail(dot)org
(For more information, please see: About I2P)

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My Public key: 

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Re: Amber hosted locally for rapid prototyping and experiments

Mir S.
Interesting demo.



Pe 8 apr. 2015, la 02:27, Joe Shirk <[hidden email]> a scris:

killer app that should be in Amber

http://allcoinsnews.com/2015/04/06/synereo-reveals-node-software-prototype-amp-crowdsale-rule-changes/

On Mar 16, 2015 9:19 PM, "Joe Shirk" <[hidden email]> wrote:
This looks not-too future: ALEXANDRIA
I'm not too thrilled about the 'coin' aspect, but the blockchain underpinnings are here today.


On Sun, Mar 15, 2015 at 2:11 PM, Mir S. <[hidden email]> wrote:
True. Actually, one of my main objectives is to “port” the tiddlywiki usability into Smalltalk so that the code behind it is more readable. Being able to interact with a “live” web page with Javascript is vary similar to how you are able to interact with a live Smalltalk image is Squeak or Pharo.

As for the article you posted It seems very “into the future” for me. Serverless collaboration between browsers seems very complicated to achieve.

I would settle making Amber capable of offline operation, maybe not a single file like tiddlywiki. Just so that when you open the index.html of any folder or subfolder in your project you should be able to use it and save it as it is, without the need of a node.js server. Once this is done, we can properly study serverless implementations of anything we want.

Pe 18 feb. 2015, la 19:04, Joe Shirk <[hidden email]> a scris:


I have been using TW Classic for some time myself, mostly for simple interactive resumes that are filterable by category. I never managed to use it for much outside of the hosted version on tiddlyspace, and in the corporate environment where it was too much to ask for a wiki server, i could share and collaborate with a few people on the intranet only if I could get them to use firefox. but here is where i think the next big thing we have been waiting to become a reality for a while: a decentralized, serverless wiki. This project has much promise but when I think of it being implemented in Amber, I get much more excited:


On Monday, February 9, 2015 at 7:51:00 AM UTC-5, Mircea S. wrote:
Hello everyone,

I'm intruding on your patience again. I had this spark of insight late last night and I wanted to tell you all about it so I hope this goes through, the mailinglist seems to lag behind and my e-mails are probably moderated arriving a day late sometimes.

I would like to discuss an interesting use case for Amber. 

For a long time I've been using this single page entirely Javascript wiki app called TiddlyWiki5. It can be installed on a NodeJS server and act as a collaboration platform. Source code here https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5 with instructions on how to install here http://tiddlywiki.com/#Installing%20TiddlyWiki%20on%20Node.js




--

Gmail is unsecure. Why? See: EFF Surveillance Self-Defense Project

My preferred secure email address: infomaniac(at)i2pmail(dot)org
(For more information, please see: About I2P)

If you prefer to send to this gmail account, consider using https://www.mailpile.is
 
My Public key: 

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