An Idea for a minimal self documented begineer friendly pharo image

On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 7:01 PM, Dimitris Chloupis
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> So I was reading the complains from Sven and got Inspiration from Torsten
> Pharo image and CUIs and made me wonder what if we had an image which has
> the least amount of libraries and every library inside it is full commented
> in class, package and method and even has tutorial using inside help tool.
>
> So I think I will give this project a try. I know there is a plan to make
> pharo image more modular, but modularity does not equal minimalism ,
> simplicity and ease of use.
>
> I think I will follow the CUIs example and do the development via Github.
>
> But I am open to ideas and suggestions.
>
> My intention is to remove the excess fat, to make Pharo prettier (improve
> theme support and make available several themes ) and to have everything
> commented and self documented.
>
> Obviously this will be a long term project and in no way a walk in the park
> but I was looking for a nice project to name "Ephestos" :D seem as good as
> any

Did this project not pane out?...
    https://pharoweekly.wordpress.com/2014/07/16/ephestos-using-and-coding-blender-from-inside-pharo/

Seems you're quite attached to that name :)
but is there a minor chance of confusion?

cheers -ben

2016-05-24 15:18 GMT+02:00 Dimitris Chloupis <[hidden email]>:

Well technically the python part works fine, BUT I also always wanted it to be friendly to begineers . So nope , its same project. And you are correct its still focused in coding 3d graphics but I came to realisation that if I want some people to use it, obviously i dont expect the massive majority to give up the comforts of python but for those that are curious I have to provide an enviroment thats is even easier to code in than python is currently for Blender.

My goal is to provide a development enviroment for Blender addons that is simple, and easy to use and learn.

So providing a minimal pharo image that is self documented has always being a dream for Ephestos.

By the way whats the news on the matter of modular pharo image ? Is there any work done to provide a minimal pharo image ?

There is a minimal image, which is I think usable as-is, except that what you want is something in between the minimal image (no gui, no tools) and a full image, and that is a bit complex to set-up.

I started some work on doing that with Pharo4 (put a place with baselines I could use to load the HEAD of the Pharo main repository and load the right packages), but Pharo5 changed the way external projects are included, and my approach wasn't good anymore.

I think the overall Pharo organisation could benefit from such an effort; it would exercise all the planned mechanisms for the modular image, in maybe an easier way than a modular full image, and with someone motivated to debug and maintain the process: you!

Thierry

 

I would hate to replicate what is already done.

On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 3:59 PM Ben Coman <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 7:01 PM, Dimitris Chloupis
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> So I was reading the complains from Sven and got Inspiration from Torsten
> Pharo image and CUIs and made me wonder what if we had an image which has
> the least amount of libraries and every library inside it is full commented
> in class, package and method and even has tutorial using inside help tool.
>
> So I think I will give this project a try. I know there is a plan to make
> pharo image more modular, but modularity does not equal minimalism ,
> simplicity and ease of use.
>
> I think I will follow the CUIs example and do the development via Github.
>
> But I am open to ideas and suggestions.
>
> My intention is to remove the excess fat, to make Pharo prettier (improve
> theme support and make available several themes ) and to have everything
> commented and self documented.
>
> Obviously this will be a long term project and in no way a walk in the park
> but I was looking for a nice project to name "Ephestos" :D seem as good as
> any

Did this project not pane out?...
    https://pharoweekly.wordpress.com/2014/07/16/ephestos-using-and-coding-blender-from-inside-pharo/

Seems you're quite attached to that name :)
but is there a minor chance of confusion?

cheers -ben

2016-05-24 16:18 GMT+02:00 Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]>:

On 24 May 2016, at 16:11, Thierry Goubier <[hidden email]> wrote:

2016-05-24 15:18 GMT+02:00 Dimitris Chloupis <[hidden email]>:

Well technically the python part works fine, BUT I also always wanted it to be friendly to begineers . So nope , its same project. And you are correct its still focused in coding 3d graphics but I came to realisation that if I want some people to use it, obviously i dont expect the massive majority to give up the comforts of python but for those that are curious I have to provide an enviroment thats is even easier to code in than python is currently for Blender.

My goal is to provide a development enviroment for Blender addons that is simple, and easy to use and learn.

So providing a minimal pharo image that is self documented has always being a dream for Ephestos.

By the way whats the news on the matter of modular pharo image ? Is there any work done to provide a minimal pharo image ?

There is a minimal image, which is I think usable as-is, except that what you want is something in between the minimal image (no gui, no tools) and a full image, and that is a bit complex to set-up.

I started some work on doing that with Pharo4 (put a place with baselines I could use to load the HEAD of the Pharo main repository and load the right packages), but Pharo5 changed the way external projects are included, and my approach wasn't good anymore.

I think the overall Pharo organisation could benefit from such an effort; it would exercise all the planned mechanisms for the modular image, in maybe an easier way than a modular full image, and with someone motivated to debug and maintain the process: you!

honestly, I wouldn’t. 

working in a parallel image is too much work (believe me, I know something about keeping an image going).

Well, I am technically working in a parallel image for the past ... 3 years ? So, no, as long as you handle a changing minimal image and a well mastered set of slow changing packages over it, it is doable.

The base Pharo isn't changing much. As long as you don't use what is changing a lot, then this is doable. Maintaining changes all over all the fast moving packages that are in the full Pharo, then I agree with you, Esteban.

 

Pavel and Christophe are working on the bootstrap process who should be working in one-two months, with that, building custom images will be finally a reality…from there you might want to give it a try.

This, given the timeframe, is both an excellent suggestion and good to know :) 

 

But I would better invest on document (something that you have been doing very well and I’m very thankful for that) than in keeping alive what is, in fact, a fork.

Racing to document all the fast moving packages in Pharo can really be a challenge, still.

Thierry

 

 

cheers,

Esteban

Thierry

 

I would hate to replicate what is already done.

On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 3:59 PM Ben Coman <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 7:01 PM, Dimitris Chloupis
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> So I was reading the complains from Sven and got Inspiration from Torsten
> Pharo image and CUIs and made me wonder what if we had an image which has
> the least amount of libraries and every library inside it is full commented
> in class, package and method and even has tutorial using inside help tool.
>
> So I think I will give this project a try. I know there is a plan to make
> pharo image more modular, but modularity does not equal minimalism ,
> simplicity and ease of use.
>
> I think I will follow the CUIs example and do the development via Github.
>
> But I am open to ideas and suggestions.
>
> My intention is to remove the excess fat, to make Pharo prettier (improve
> theme support and make available several themes ) and to have everything
> commented and self documented.
>
> Obviously this will be a long term project and in no way a walk in the park
> but I was looking for a nice project to name "Ephestos" :D seem as good as
> any

Did this project not pane out?...
    https://pharoweekly.wordpress.com/2014/07/16/ephestos-using-and-coding-blender-from-inside-pharo/

Seems you're quite attached to that name :)
but is there a minor chance of confusion?

cheers -ben

Hi,

Nice to see this efforts.

I will try to help with my interactive notebook documentation project for reproducible/open research and by making visualization for more diverse fields, mainly data activism: Panama Papers[1], Political discourses[2](should be updated), but also medicines [3]. Also I'm making some builders to make more easy specific domain visualizations and re-reading, this time deeply, the Agile Visualization book and making some comments (i.e [4][5])

[1] http://mutabit.com/offray/blog/en/entry/panama-papers-1
[2] http://mutabit.com/offray/static/blog/output/posts/visualizing-politicianspolitical-discourses-on-twitter.html
[3] http://mutabit.com/offray/blog/en/entry/sdv-infomed
[4] https://hyp.is/8hHnlCHzEeaIfiOOWSL11w/dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/31543901/AgileVisualization/QuickStart/0101-QuickStart.html
[5] https://hyp.is/44eZbiHxEeaykduI7FzoXQ/dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/31543901/AgileVisualization/QuickStart/0101-QuickStart.html

I just tell this because at some point could be an intersection/complementarity from the documentation point and helps to have this overview of where people is focused and trying to contribute. I don't know if there is a place where interested can find where other people is doing that is not properly software (or is not integrated yet into software)... kind of related project/interest in Pharo.

Cheers,

Offray

On 24/05/16 15:55, Dimitris Chloupis wrote:

WOW I did not expect so many replies

Its amazing you guys work on a minimal image, since that is the case I will wait for you experts to deliver and instead as you advise me Esteban I will focus my effort on documentation, it looks like I have come to a decision to contribute to pharo in 3 ways

1) Make a theme for pharo which is very modern flexible and super easy to customise to whatever one wants, a theme to rule them all -> Nireas (its there but needs a lot of improvement)

2) Make an API for Blender that will allow pharo developers to take advantage of Blender awesome graphics capabilities -> Ephestos (same as above)

3) Contribute to documentation both via pillar and class and method comments. -> Prometheas (same as above)

I am sure the minimal image that you will provide will be perfect for my needs. I dont mind size per se, just system complexity.

I agree again with you Esteban that it would be better to let the maintaince of a minimal image to pharo devs since I think we are all in the same page and instead tackle areas of my expertise like graphics, theme and documentation.

I was just thinking how I could help Pharo the best way and I think these 3 projects are more than enough to keep me occupied.

The linked image you posted does not open after I download it and unzip it. Does it require a special VM or is it something else ?

On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 5:28 PM Thierry Goubier <[hidden email]> wrote:

2016-05-24 16:18 GMT+02:00 Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]>:

On 24 May 2016, at 16:11, Thierry Goubier <[hidden email]> wrote:

2016-05-24 15:18 GMT+02:00 Dimitris Chloupis <[hidden email]>:

Well technically the python part works fine, BUT I also always wanted it to be friendly to begineers . So nope , its same project. And you are correct its still focused in coding 3d graphics but I came to realisation that if I want some people to use it, obviously i dont expect the massive majority to give up the comforts of python but for those that are curious I have to provide an enviroment thats is even easier to code in than python is currently for Blender.

My goal is to provide a development enviroment for Blender addons that is simple, and easy to use and learn.

So providing a minimal pharo image that is self documented has always being a dream for Ephestos.

By the way whats the news on the matter of modular pharo image ? Is there any work done to provide a minimal pharo image ?

There is a minimal image, which is I think usable as-is, except that what you want is something in between the minimal image (no gui, no tools) and a full image, and that is a bit complex to set-up.

I started some work on doing that with Pharo4 (put a place with baselines I could use to load the HEAD of the Pharo main repository and load the right packages), but Pharo5 changed the way external projects are included, and my approach wasn't good anymore.

I think the overall Pharo organisation could benefit from such an effort; it would exercise all the planned mechanisms for the modular image, in maybe an easier way than a modular full image, and with someone motivated to debug and maintain the process: you!

honestly, I wouldn’t. 

working in a parallel image is too much work (believe me, I know something about keeping an image going).

Well, I am technically working in a parallel image for the past ... 3 years ? So, no, as long as you handle a changing minimal image and a well mastered set of slow changing packages over it, it is doable.

The base Pharo isn't changing much. As long as you don't use what is changing a lot, then this is doable. Maintaining changes all over all the fast moving packages that are in the full Pharo, then I agree with you, Esteban.

 

Pavel and Christophe are working on the bootstrap process who should be working in one-two months, with that, building custom images will be finally a reality…from there you might want to give it a try.

This, given the timeframe, is both an excellent suggestion and good to know :) 

 

But I would better invest on document (something that you have been doing very well and I’m very thankful for that) than in keeping alive what is, in fact, a fork.

Racing to document all the fast moving packages in Pharo can really be a challenge, still.

Thierry

 

 

cheers,

Esteban

Thierry

 

I would hate to replicate what is already done.

On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 3:59 PM Ben Coman <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 7:01 PM, Dimitris Chloupis
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> So I was reading the complains from Sven and got Inspiration from Torsten
> Pharo image and CUIs and made me wonder what if we had an image which has
> the least amount of libraries and every library inside it is full commented
> in class, package and method and even has tutorial using inside help tool.
>
> So I think I will give this project a try. I know there is a plan to make
> pharo image more modular, but modularity does not equal minimalism ,
> simplicity and ease of use.
>
> I think I will follow the CUIs example and do the development via Github.
>
> But I am open to ideas and suggestions.
>
> My intention is to remove the excess fat, to make Pharo prettier (improve
> theme support and make available several themes ) and to have everything
> commented and self documented.
>
> Obviously this will be a long term project and in no way a walk in the park
> but I was looking for a nice project to name "Ephestos" :D seem as good as
> any

Did this project not pane out?...
    https://pharoweekly.wordpress.com/2014/07/16/ephestos-using-and-coding-blender-from-inside-pharo/

Seems you're quite attached to that name :)
but is there a minor chance of confusion?

cheers -ben