AnnouncementSubscription and Ephemerons

> Gesendet: Dienstag, 07. November 2017 um 21:00 Uhr
> Von: "Torsten Bergmann" <[hidden email]>
> An: "Pharo Development List" <[hidden email]>
> Betreff: [Pharo-dev] AnnouncementSubscription and Ephemerons
>
> Hi,
>
> by accident I stumbled upon the following code in AnnouncementSubscription:
>
>  makeWeak
>    action isBlock ifTrue: [ self error: 'Not currently available due to missing ephemerons support'].
>    ...
>
> My understanding is that we have Ephemeron support in Pharo now working. Right?
>
> Anyone with more insights who knows how to fix/complete this? Should we at least open an issue?
>
> Thx
> T.
>
>
>

> Hi,
>
> by accident I stumbled upon the following code in AnnouncementSubscription:
>
>  makeWeak
>    action isBlock ifTrue: [ self error: 'Not currently available due to missing ephemerons support'].
>    ...
>
> My understanding is that we have Ephemeron support in Pharo now working. Right?
>
> Anyone with more insights who knows how to fix/complete this? Should we at least open an issue?
>
> Thx
> T.
>
>

>
>
> 2018-04-01 11:36 GMT+02:00 Stephane Ducasse <[hidden email]>:
>>
>> Hi Torsten
>>
>> Thanks for this question.
>>
>> Ephemerons do not work in Pharo sadly and we know it. We cannot then
>> take advantage of them.
>> What you see is in fact a degradation of the situation around the VM. :(
>> We are concerned about this but the path for our future in this domain
>> is unclear.
>>
>
> Hi Stephane,
> the future is in your hand.
> Put milestones on opensmalltalk-vm, open new entries on opensmalltalk-vm
> issue tracker, put engineering force to solve pharo-specific build failures.
> In one word, help us to help you.
>
> So could you please explain what did you do exactly to help ephemerons being
> implemented in spur, and what are the forces couter-acting your efforts?
>
>
>>
>> What is clear is that we will reduce the number of Plugin (as pablo
>> did for freetype) and use FFI.
>> But FFI callbacks are not really good. And we need a threaded VM. Now
>> nothing happens on this front.
>>
>
> Yes, we all want that!
> It's just that it does not happen by magic nor handwaving.
>
>>
>> Let us face it there is a bad energy around. After years of discussion
>> our engineers
>> are still struggling and slowed down because of the dispersion of plugin
>> code.
>> In addition, from what I understood there is no development branch :)
>> amazing is not it in 2020!
>>
> How sarcasms are going to  federate and encourage people to make progress?
> What can you obtain with this sort of sentence but further splitting the
> community?
> Is it your goal?
>
>>
>>
>> On another scale, since 1 year, I was focusing on making that our
>> institute offers a permanent position to Clement but I failed
>> because the forces against where too strong (politics) and clement
>> should reapply next year.
>> Now to improve his CV, clement is doing a postdoc at VUB and will
>> start working on Truffle (the VM of Oracle)
>> and continue to work part time on Sista.
>> This is not that bad,  like that he will gain experience on other
>> systems and in the future
>> we will be in the position to see if there are real alternatives for
>> us. May be writing a new VM
>> on top of other existing infrastructure is the way to go. We will see
>> in the future.
>>
>
> Unfortunately, the rules of French institutions certainly do not help you...
> Maybe Truffle is a possible future for you, more solid than 100% own fork
> for sure.
>
>
>> To be fully transparent
>>
>> - we will have one phd working on IoT and how to reduce/clean the image
>> and
>> VM size and many other points she will probably work on a fork because
>> I cannot suicide a
>> student (by asking her to understand the messy plugin architecture)
>> and she will need some space to experiment.
>> Now if improvements she will perform take ages to be integrated in the
>> main VM I will ask
>> her not to do it and to focus on her future and science.
>> I imagine that everybody paying attention to people can understand this.
>>
>>
>
> Good to know that you are paying attention to people, I had the impression
> that this was not allways the case.
> I'm willing to help Pharo, I've helped producing Pharo brand 64 bits windows
> VM more than one year ago.
> I'm struggling to make the community beneficial to all, but I don't feel
> like I get a lot of support and wonder if I'm not completely mistaken when I
> see all the efforts deployed to tear it apart...
>
>
>>
>> Stef
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 9:00 PM, Torsten Bergmann <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > by accident I stumbled upon the following code in
>> > AnnouncementSubscription:
>> >
>> >  makeWeak
>> >    action isBlock ifTrue: [ self error: 'Not currently available due to
>> > missing ephemerons support'].
>> >    ...
>> >
>> > My understanding is that we have Ephemeron support in Pharo now working.
>> > Right?
>> >
>> > Anyone with more insights who knows how to fix/complete this? Should we
>> > at least open an issue?
>> >
>> > Thx
>> > T.
>> >
>> >
>>
>

> I will not reply publicly to this email because I think that it will get worse.
> So I will not talk publicly about anything related to the Pharo VM in
> the Pharo mailing-list and any other lists.
> I will put a filter and trash emails automatically. Like that I will
> get touched anymore by what I see.
>
> You may think that I'm wrong. I'm probably.
>
> Now just to make clear: I funded all the PhD of Clement, and all the
> work of Igor around the VM.
> And many other engineers and PhD (C. Bruni, Sophie, ...)
> I'm fighting to make the Pharo consortium working so that we can pay
> people like Esteban
> (Esteban is not working in Pharo just because he cannot find a job
> outside our little community and this
> is the case for many other people) and other people.
>
> Stef
>
> On Sun, Apr 1, 2018 at 2:33 PM, Nicolas Cellier
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>
>> 2018-04-01 11:36 GMT+02:00 Stephane Ducasse <[hidden email]>:
>>>
>>> Hi Torsten
>>>
>>> Thanks for this question.
>>>
>>> Ephemerons do not work in Pharo sadly and we know it. We cannot then
>>> take advantage of them.
>>> What you see is in fact a degradation of the situation around the VM. :(
>>> We are concerned about this but the path for our future in this domain
>>> is unclear.
>>>
>>
>> Hi Stephane,
>> the future is in your hand.
>> Put milestones on opensmalltalk-vm, open new entries on opensmalltalk-vm
>> issue tracker, put engineering force to solve pharo-specific build failures.
>> In one word, help us to help you.
>>
>> So could you please explain what did you do exactly to help ephemerons being
>> implemented in spur, and what are the forces couter-acting your efforts?
>>
>>
>>>
>>> What is clear is that we will reduce the number of Plugin (as pablo
>>> did for freetype) and use FFI.
>>> But FFI callbacks are not really good. And we need a threaded VM. Now
>>> nothing happens on this front.
>>>
>>
>> Yes, we all want that!
>> It's just that it does not happen by magic nor handwaving.
>>
>>>
>>> Let us face it there is a bad energy around. After years of discussion
>>> our engineers
>>> are still struggling and slowed down because of the dispersion of plugin
>>> code.
>>> In addition, from what I understood there is no development branch :)
>>> amazing is not it in 2020!
>>>
>> How sarcasms are going to  federate and encourage people to make progress?
>> What can you obtain with this sort of sentence but further splitting the
>> community?
>> Is it your goal?
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On another scale, since 1 year, I was focusing on making that our
>>> institute offers a permanent position to Clement but I failed
>>> because the forces against where too strong (politics) and clement
>>> should reapply next year.
>>> Now to improve his CV, clement is doing a postdoc at VUB and will
>>> start working on Truffle (the VM of Oracle)
>>> and continue to work part time on Sista.
>>> This is not that bad,  like that he will gain experience on other
>>> systems and in the future
>>> we will be in the position to see if there are real alternatives for
>>> us. May be writing a new VM
>>> on top of other existing infrastructure is the way to go. We will see
>>> in the future.
>>>
>>
>> Unfortunately, the rules of French institutions certainly do not help you...
>> Maybe Truffle is a possible future for you, more solid than 100% own fork
>> for sure.
>>
>>
>>> To be fully transparent
>>>
>>> - we will have one phd working on IoT and how to reduce/clean the image
>>> and
>>> VM size and many other points she will probably work on a fork because
>>> I cannot suicide a
>>> student (by asking her to understand the messy plugin architecture)
>>> and she will need some space to experiment.
>>> Now if improvements she will perform take ages to be integrated in the
>>> main VM I will ask
>>> her not to do it and to focus on her future and science.
>>> I imagine that everybody paying attention to people can understand this.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Good to know that you are paying attention to people, I had the impression
>> that this was not allways the case.
>> I'm willing to help Pharo, I've helped producing Pharo brand 64 bits windows
>> VM more than one year ago.
>> I'm struggling to make the community beneficial to all, but I don't feel
>> like I get a lot of support and wonder if I'm not completely mistaken when I
>> see all the efforts deployed to tear it apart...
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Stef
>>>
>>> On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 9:00 PM, Torsten Bergmann <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> > Hi,
>>> >
>>> > by accident I stumbled upon the following code in
>>> > AnnouncementSubscription:
>>> >
>>> >  makeWeak
>>> >    action isBlock ifTrue: [ self error: 'Not currently available due to
>>> > missing ephemerons support'].
>>> >    ...
>>> >
>>> > My understanding is that we have Ephemeron support in Pharo now working.
>>> > Right?
>>> >
>>> > Anyone with more insights who knows how to fix/complete this? Should we
>>> > at least open an issue?
>>> >
>>> > Thx
>>> > T.
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>
>

> Stef,
>
> I encourage you to disclose as much details as possible.
>
> For "bystanders" as myself, it is, a Pharo _user_ that always thinks
> of Pharo as the first option but
> doesn't contribute to the core of it,  all this discussions only add
> noise and concerns about the
> stability of the whole Pharo ecosystem.
>
> I've always had  the impression that Pharo is heavily dependent on
> INRIA's/government institutions,
> which in the end depend on political decisions instead of
> "market/profit" objectives.
> With the support of members of the Consortium I thought this had changed, but
> reading your statements it seems it is not enough.
>
> It is known you don't have the best temper, but it is also known you
> strive to get the best for Pharo,
> so if you're also aware of that you can avoid restraining yourself,
> and say what you have
> in mind trying to not make personal accusations.
>
> I'd prefer a brutal and noisy truth instead of false quiet calm.
>
> I hope this helps.
>
> Regards,
>
> Esteban A. Maringolo
>
>
> 2018-04-01 10:16 GMT-03:00 Stephane Ducasse <[hidden email]>:
>> I will not reply publicly to this email because I think that it will get worse.
>> So I will not talk publicly about anything related to the Pharo VM in
>> the Pharo mailing-list and any other lists.
>> I will put a filter and trash emails automatically. Like that I will
>> get touched anymore by what I see.
>>
>> You may think that I'm wrong. I'm probably.
>>
>> Now just to make clear: I funded all the PhD of Clement, and all the
>> work of Igor around the VM.
>> And many other engineers and PhD (C. Bruni, Sophie, ...)
>> I'm fighting to make the Pharo consortium working so that we can pay
>> people like Esteban
>> (Esteban is not working in Pharo just because he cannot find a job
>> outside our little community and this
>> is the case for many other people) and other people.
>>
>> Stef
>>
>> On Sun, Apr 1, 2018 at 2:33 PM, Nicolas Cellier
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> 2018-04-01 11:36 GMT+02:00 Stephane Ducasse <[hidden email]>:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Torsten
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for this question.
>>>>
>>>> Ephemerons do not work in Pharo sadly and we know it. We cannot then
>>>> take advantage of them.
>>>> What you see is in fact a degradation of the situation around the VM. :(
>>>> We are concerned about this but the path for our future in this domain
>>>> is unclear.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Stephane,
>>> the future is in your hand.
>>> Put milestones on opensmalltalk-vm, open new entries on opensmalltalk-vm
>>> issue tracker, put engineering force to solve pharo-specific build failures.
>>> In one word, help us to help you.
>>>
>>> So could you please explain what did you do exactly to help ephemerons being
>>> implemented in spur, and what are the forces couter-acting your efforts?
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> What is clear is that we will reduce the number of Plugin (as pablo
>>>> did for freetype) and use FFI.
>>>> But FFI callbacks are not really good. And we need a threaded VM. Now
>>>> nothing happens on this front.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, we all want that!
>>> It's just that it does not happen by magic nor handwaving.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Let us face it there is a bad energy around. After years of discussion
>>>> our engineers
>>>> are still struggling and slowed down because of the dispersion of plugin
>>>> code.
>>>> In addition, from what I understood there is no development branch :)
>>>> amazing is not it in 2020!
>>>>
>>> How sarcasms are going to  federate and encourage people to make progress?
>>> What can you obtain with this sort of sentence but further splitting the
>>> community?
>>> Is it your goal?
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On another scale, since 1 year, I was focusing on making that our
>>>> institute offers a permanent position to Clement but I failed
>>>> because the forces against where too strong (politics) and clement
>>>> should reapply next year.
>>>> Now to improve his CV, clement is doing a postdoc at VUB and will
>>>> start working on Truffle (the VM of Oracle)
>>>> and continue to work part time on Sista.
>>>> This is not that bad,  like that he will gain experience on other
>>>> systems and in the future
>>>> we will be in the position to see if there are real alternatives for
>>>> us. May be writing a new VM
>>>> on top of other existing infrastructure is the way to go. We will see
>>>> in the future.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, the rules of French institutions certainly do not help you...
>>> Maybe Truffle is a possible future for you, more solid than 100% own fork
>>> for sure.
>>>
>>>
>>>> To be fully transparent
>>>>
>>>> - we will have one phd working on IoT and how to reduce/clean the image
>>>> and
>>>> VM size and many other points she will probably work on a fork because
>>>> I cannot suicide a
>>>> student (by asking her to understand the messy plugin architecture)
>>>> and she will need some space to experiment.
>>>> Now if improvements she will perform take ages to be integrated in the
>>>> main VM I will ask
>>>> her not to do it and to focus on her future and science.
>>>> I imagine that everybody paying attention to people can understand this.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Good to know that you are paying attention to people, I had the impression
>>> that this was not allways the case.
>>> I'm willing to help Pharo, I've helped producing Pharo brand 64 bits windows
>>> VM more than one year ago.
>>> I'm struggling to make the community beneficial to all, but I don't feel
>>> like I get a lot of support and wonder if I'm not completely mistaken when I
>>> see all the efforts deployed to tear it apart...
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Stef
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 9:00 PM, Torsten Bergmann <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> > Hi,
>>>> >
>>>> > by accident I stumbled upon the following code in
>>>> > AnnouncementSubscription:
>>>> >
>>>> >  makeWeak
>>>> >    action isBlock ifTrue: [ self error: 'Not currently available due to
>>>> > missing ephemerons support'].
>>>> >    ...
>>>> >
>>>> > My understanding is that we have Ephemeron support in Pharo now working.
>>>> > Right?
>>>> >
>>>> > Anyone with more insights who knows how to fix/complete this? Should we
>>>> > at least open an issue?
>>>> >
>>>> > Thx
>>>> > T.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>
>>
>

> My last email on VM topics...
>
> Hi esteban
>
> Just for the record, our team spent a lot of engineering time and
> money on Pharo.
> May be I forgot some people. Often we bent research projects to
> squeese in Pharo activities.
>
> - Pavel 1 year paid for bootstrap and general improvements
> - Denis 2 years paid for TelePharo (for research projects)
> - Igor 4 years paid for athens, SDL, VM Build, TxText
> - Christophe 5 years bootstrap, ci, infras, plauncher, cargo
> - Clement two years as young engineer on compiler/VM
> - Clement 6 months on Sista
>
> - Camillo 3 years for his Phd
> - Guille 3 years for his Phd
> - Pablo 3 years for his Phd
> - Mariano 3 years for his Phd
> - Clement 3 years for thisPhd
>
> - Guille two years on various improvements
> - Me several years
> - Marcus several years
> - Damien on side project
> - Esteban 4 years by Inria
>
> - Nicolas Passerini got paid by the consortium 9 months
> - Guillermo paid 6 months for database
> - you and mariano got paid for side projects for a couple of months
>
> Right now only Esteban is paid by the consortium because this what the
> consortium
> can pay!
>
> If I sum up Inria put a lot of money on the table compared to the
> users and people
> benefitting from Pharo. But this is like that.
>
> So I think that the consortium is a positive thing. Some people may
> think the contrary.
> Now do not expect miracles. A single guy cannot do much.
> Retrospectively I think that
> I made a mistake pushing to have tools for git. We should have go the
> filetree way
> and command line and gain 18 months of work. But I cannot be right all
> the time.
>
> Now if all the companies doing Pharo would put money on the table then
> we could have
> another full time engineer working to improve the situation. I hope
> that this will happen.
>
> Then about the VM: a VM is a complex piece of engineering.
> And in the open-source community people apparently like to put in addition
> not good process and extra constraints (super compatibility, different
> dialects), not good communication,
> So we end up with a not good situation.
>
> Now I will not read and send any emails about the VM in the future. I
> have a set a filter to
> automatically trash any emails on the topic. So if you send me an
> email and you see now reaction it is normal.
> I think that we make no progress and we are even on regression on this part.
>
> We will talk with the consortium members and asked them what is the priority
> and if the VM is one of them, then we will have to take real decisions
> to make progress.
> Now since we cannot form someone on VM core rapidly we will see what are the
> options. But to me what is clear is that the situation cannot continue
> to be like that.
> We cannot not control our process.
>
> Stef
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 1, 2018 at 6:02 PM, Esteban A. Maringolo
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Stef,
>>
>> I encourage you to disclose as much details as possible.
>>
>> For "bystanders" as myself, it is, a Pharo _user_ that always thinks
>> of Pharo as the first option but
>> doesn't contribute to the core of it,  all this discussions only add
>> noise and concerns about the
>> stability of the whole Pharo ecosystem.
>>
>> I've always had  the impression that Pharo is heavily dependent on
>> INRIA's/government institutions,
>> which in the end depend on political decisions instead of
>> "market/profit" objectives.
>> With the support of members of the Consortium I thought this had changed, but
>> reading your statements it seems it is not enough.
>>
>> It is known you don't have the best temper, but it is also known you
>> strive to get the best for Pharo,
>> so if you're also aware of that you can avoid restraining yourself,
>> and say what you have
>> in mind trying to not make personal accusations.
>>
>> I'd prefer a brutal and noisy truth instead of false quiet calm.
>>
>> I hope this helps.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Esteban A. Maringolo
>>
>>
>> 2018-04-01 10:16 GMT-03:00 Stephane Ducasse <[hidden email]>:
>>> I will not reply publicly to this email because I think that it will get worse.
>>> So I will not talk publicly about anything related to the Pharo VM in
>>> the Pharo mailing-list and any other lists.
>>> I will put a filter and trash emails automatically. Like that I will
>>> get touched anymore by what I see.
>>>
>>> You may think that I'm wrong. I'm probably.
>>>
>>> Now just to make clear: I funded all the PhD of Clement, and all the
>>> work of Igor around the VM.
>>> And many other engineers and PhD (C. Bruni, Sophie, ...)
>>> I'm fighting to make the Pharo consortium working so that we can pay
>>> people like Esteban
>>> (Esteban is not working in Pharo just because he cannot find a job
>>> outside our little community and this
>>> is the case for many other people) and other people.
>>>
>>> Stef
>>>
>>> On Sun, Apr 1, 2018 at 2:33 PM, Nicolas Cellier
>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2018-04-01 11:36 GMT+02:00 Stephane Ducasse <[hidden email]>:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Torsten
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for this question.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ephemerons do not work in Pharo sadly and we know it. We cannot then
>>>>> take advantage of them.
>>>>> What you see is in fact a degradation of the situation around the VM. :(
>>>>> We are concerned about this but the path for our future in this domain
>>>>> is unclear.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi Stephane,
>>>> the future is in your hand.
>>>> Put milestones on opensmalltalk-vm, open new entries on opensmalltalk-vm
>>>> issue tracker, put engineering force to solve pharo-specific build failures.
>>>> In one word, help us to help you.
>>>>
>>>> So could you please explain what did you do exactly to help ephemerons being
>>>> implemented in spur, and what are the forces couter-acting your efforts?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> What is clear is that we will reduce the number of Plugin (as pablo
>>>>> did for freetype) and use FFI.
>>>>> But FFI callbacks are not really good. And we need a threaded VM. Now
>>>>> nothing happens on this front.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, we all want that!
>>>> It's just that it does not happen by magic nor handwaving.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Let us face it there is a bad energy around. After years of discussion
>>>>> our engineers
>>>>> are still struggling and slowed down because of the dispersion of plugin
>>>>> code.
>>>>> In addition, from what I understood there is no development branch :)
>>>>> amazing is not it in 2020!
>>>>>
>>>> How sarcasms are going to  federate and encourage people to make progress?
>>>> What can you obtain with this sort of sentence but further splitting the
>>>> community?
>>>> Is it your goal?
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On another scale, since 1 year, I was focusing on making that our
>>>>> institute offers a permanent position to Clement but I failed
>>>>> because the forces against where too strong (politics) and clement
>>>>> should reapply next year.
>>>>> Now to improve his CV, clement is doing a postdoc at VUB and will
>>>>> start working on Truffle (the VM of Oracle)
>>>>> and continue to work part time on Sista.
>>>>> This is not that bad,  like that he will gain experience on other
>>>>> systems and in the future
>>>>> we will be in the position to see if there are real alternatives for
>>>>> us. May be writing a new VM
>>>>> on top of other existing infrastructure is the way to go. We will see
>>>>> in the future.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Unfortunately, the rules of French institutions certainly do not help you...
>>>> Maybe Truffle is a possible future for you, more solid than 100% own fork
>>>> for sure.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> To be fully transparent
>>>>>
>>>>> - we will have one phd working on IoT and how to reduce/clean the image
>>>>> and
>>>>> VM size and many other points she will probably work on a fork because
>>>>> I cannot suicide a
>>>>> student (by asking her to understand the messy plugin architecture)
>>>>> and she will need some space to experiment.
>>>>> Now if improvements she will perform take ages to be integrated in the
>>>>> main VM I will ask
>>>>> her not to do it and to focus on her future and science.
>>>>> I imagine that everybody paying attention to people can understand this.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Good to know that you are paying attention to people, I had the impression
>>>> that this was not allways the case.
>>>> I'm willing to help Pharo, I've helped producing Pharo brand 64 bits windows
>>>> VM more than one year ago.
>>>> I'm struggling to make the community beneficial to all, but I don't feel
>>>> like I get a lot of support and wonder if I'm not completely mistaken when I
>>>> see all the efforts deployed to tear it apart...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Stef
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 9:00 PM, Torsten Bergmann <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>> > Hi,
>>>>> >
>>>>> > by accident I stumbled upon the following code in
>>>>> > AnnouncementSubscription:
>>>>> >
>>>>> >  makeWeak
>>>>> >    action isBlock ifTrue: [ self error: 'Not currently available due to
>>>>> > missing ephemerons support'].
>>>>> >    ...
>>>>> >
>>>>> > My understanding is that we have Ephemeron support in Pharo now working.
>>>>> > Right?
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Anyone with more insights who knows how to fix/complete this? Should we
>>>>> > at least open an issue?
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Thx
>>>>> > T.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>