http://280atlas.com/
Kind of world rocking I think. _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
Can you say anything more about it than just building traffic for the
web site? On Apr 7, 2009, at 9:50 PM, Eagle Offshore wrote: > http://280atlas.com/ > > Kind of world rocking I think. > _______________________________________________ > seaside mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside > _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
In reply to this post by Eagle Offshore
Maybe it's interface builder or Xcode for Cappuccino framework?
PS) I once thought that Seaside + Cappuccino might be cool development framework. :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: James Foster <[hidden email]> To: Seaside - general discussion <[hidden email]> Sent: 09-04-08 14:14:32 Subject: Re: [Seaside] Anybody see this? Can you say anything more about it than just building traffic for the web site? On Apr 7, 2009, at 9:50 PM, Eagle Offshore wrote: > http://280atlas.com/ > > Kind of world rocking I think. > _______________________________________________ > seaside mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside > _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
In reply to this post by Eagle Offshore
Maybe it's interface builder or Xcode for Cappuccino framework?
PS) I once thought that Seaside + Cappuccino might be cool development framework. :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: James Foster <[hidden email]> To: Seaside - general discussion <[hidden email]> Sent: 09-04-08 14:14:32 Subject: Re: [Seaside] Anybody see this? Can you say anything more about it than just building traffic for the web site? On Apr 7, 2009, at 9:50 PM, Eagle Offshore wrote: > http://280atlas.com/ > > Kind of world rocking I think. > _______________________________________________ > seaside mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside > _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
In reply to this post by jgfoster
Difficult to find the words.
Lets say I think they're well on their way to taking web application development to desktop development levels - its basically Cocoa development, but in your browser, for browser based apps. Really game changing stuff. If they succeed (and the demos are pretty strong) it kind of makes the whole seaside thing seem quaint by comparison. But you should see it yourself. On Apr 7, 2009, at 10:14 PM, James Foster wrote: > Can you say anything more about it than just building traffic for > the web site? > > On Apr 7, 2009, at 9:50 PM, Eagle Offshore wrote: > >> http://280atlas.com/ >> >> Kind of world rocking I think. >> _______________________________________________ >> seaside mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside >> > > _______________________________________________ > seaside mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
In reply to this post by Eagle Offshore
Cappuccino is nice. I've played a bit with it. Lots of potential, but
it is not yet there. Stability is not yet great, and there are lots of unimplemented features. Debugging in a null-eating environment is not as nice as in Smalltalk, and having an extra layer of javascript doesn't help. Stephan _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
In reply to this post by Eagle Offshore
I don't know, perhaps it's still too early to tell, but their demo is
nothing but a glorified UI builder to me. Two immediate problems with that, a) any design choices beyond what they offer might be hard to implement b) the complex part of today's applications isn't the interface, it's whatever is behind it -Boris -- +1.604.689.0322 DeepCove Labs Ltd. 4th floor 595 Howe Street Vancouver, Canada V6C 2T5 http://tinyurl.com/r7uw4 [hidden email] CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email is intended only for the persons named in the message header. Unless otherwise indicated, it contains information that is private and confidential. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender and delete the entire message including any attachments. Thank you. -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Eagle Offshore Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2009 12:42 AM To: Seaside - general discussion Subject: Re: [Seaside] Anybody see this? Difficult to find the words. Lets say I think they're well on their way to taking web application development to desktop development levels - its basically Cocoa development, but in your browser, for browser based apps. Really game changing stuff. If they succeed (and the demos are pretty strong) it kind of makes the whole seaside thing seem quaint by comparison. But you should see it yourself. On Apr 7, 2009, at 10:14 PM, James Foster wrote: > Can you say anything more about it than just building traffic for > the web site? > > On Apr 7, 2009, at 9:50 PM, Eagle Offshore wrote: > >> http://280atlas.com/ >> >> Kind of world rocking I think. >> _______________________________________________ >> seaside mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside >> > > _______________________________________________ > seaside mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
In reply to this post by Eagle Offshore
It has an UI builder that certainly shows the path in some aspects and only in
usability terms. I remember I said in this list, some years ago, that UI of the web applications should be buildable from the browser. It says nothing about how good is to build the application itself. Not to mention scaling complexity. So far I see no signal of that being better than a modern version of visual basic for the web. There are various movments trying to make web apps developeables ala desktop. I found that quite positive. Boths worlds are merging into something better. cheers, sebastian > -----Mensaje original----- > De: [hidden email] > [mailto:[hidden email]] En nombre > de Eagle Offshore > Enviado el: Wednesday, April 08, 2009 04:42 > Para: Seaside - general discussion > Asunto: Re: [Seaside] Anybody see this? > > Difficult to find the words. > Lets say I think they're well on their way to taking web application > development to desktop development levels - its basically Cocoa > development, but in your browser, for browser based apps. > Really game > changing stuff. > > If they succeed (and the demos are pretty strong) it kind of > makes the > whole seaside thing seem quaint by comparison. > > But you should see it yourself. > > On Apr 7, 2009, at 10:14 PM, James Foster wrote: > > > Can you say anything more about it than just building traffic for > > the web site? > > > > On Apr 7, 2009, at 9:50 PM, Eagle Offshore wrote: > > > >> http://280atlas.com/ > >> > >> Kind of world rocking I think. > >> _______________________________________________ > >> seaside mailing list > >> [hidden email] > >> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > seaside mailing list > > [hidden email] > > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside > > _______________________________________________ > seaside mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
In reply to this post by Eagle Offshore
Interesting -- reminds me a bit of building VisualAge Smalltalk apps, and perhaps subject to the same problems if you're building something more complex than an rss reader. On Apr 8, 2009, at 12:50 AM, Eagle Offshore wrote: > http://280atlas.com/ > > Kind of world rocking I think. > _______________________________________________ > seaside mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
In reply to this post by Eagle Offshore
http://www.sproutcore.com/
is another nice framework that doesn't have an extra layer above javascipt and seem lighter. It is used by Apple for it's web site http://www.me.com On 8 avr. 09, at 06:50, Eagle Offshore wrote: > http://280atlas.com/ > > Kind of world rocking I think. > _______________________________________________ > seaside mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
In reply to this post by Sebastian Sastre-2
Its funny but I'm hearing seasiders dismiss this technology using many
of the same arguments that non-seasiders use to dismiss seaside. You sound exactly the same as your detractors. There are multiple backends for capuccino - including php. PHP scales like crazy. Not worried. It is not hard to imagine writing a single data access handler to bridge database requests and forgetting about it. There's a nice little minimal ActiveRecord for PHP I just used on a prototype that kicks any database access technology I've used in Squeak in simplicity, usability, and speed. They've essentially implemented Cocoa in Javascript (Capuccino) and a commercial product using that (http://280slides.com/), and now they're using that to implement Interface Builder and XCode. They say it works in all common browsers identically including IE6. To me it looks very "turtles all the way down" but abstracts away the whole web trash heap. For applications, not websites. I see a lot in common with lively kernel. SproutCore looks nice but it is very much a web technology. As to the comment about the complex part of applications not being the interface - on web apps I spend 95% of my time tweaking UI - fiddling CSS rules usually or typing endless nestings of builder methods to generate taggage to implement simple things. UI is all I do on the web. Anyhow, their demo is better than any gui builder that has appeared for squeak - morphic or web. I'm not here to trash seaside - I think it rocks. But I find the render/canvas extremely tiresome to work with because at the end of the day its still building web noise and I think lively kernel/ html5 canvas and cappucino/atlas are hinting at a major shift and some deep thinking and reexamination is in order. That's my point. -Todd Blanchard On Apr 8, 2009, at 7:57 AM, Sebastian Sastre wrote: > It says nothing about how good is to build the application itself. > Not to > mention scaling complexity. > So far I see no signal of that being better than a modern version of > visual > basic for the web. On Apr 8, 2009, at 7:12 AM, Boris Popov wrote: > a) any design choices beyond what they offer might be hard to > implement > b) the complex part of today's applications isn't the interface, it's > whatever is behind it _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
I guess where I can't relate to this is the part about tweaking the
design, because if you separate coding from design and have professionals working in their own element on each, developers can focus on functionality and designers can focus on design. Most usable web applications don't just have input fields, lists and buttons. You can tell I'm sceptical, but I'll be keeping an eye on things as they develop. There's a long history of UI builders failing for many reasons and we have yet to see one succeed. -Boris -- +1.604.689.0322 DeepCove Labs Ltd. 4th floor 595 Howe Street Vancouver, Canada V6C 2T5 http://tinyurl.com/r7uw4 [hidden email] CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email is intended only for the persons named in the message header. Unless otherwise indicated, it contains information that is private and confidential. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender and delete the entire message including any attachments. Thank you. -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Eagle Offshore Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2009 10:32 AM To: Seaside - general discussion Subject: Re: [Seaside] Anybody see this? Its funny but I'm hearing seasiders dismiss this technology using many of the same arguments that non-seasiders use to dismiss seaside. You sound exactly the same as your detractors. There are multiple backends for capuccino - including php. PHP scales like crazy. Not worried. It is not hard to imagine writing a single data access handler to bridge database requests and forgetting about it. There's a nice little minimal ActiveRecord for PHP I just used on a prototype that kicks any database access technology I've used in Squeak in simplicity, usability, and speed. They've essentially implemented Cocoa in Javascript (Capuccino) and a commercial product using that (http://280slides.com/), and now they're using that to implement Interface Builder and XCode. They say it works in all common browsers identically including IE6. To me it looks very "turtles all the way down" but abstracts away the whole web trash heap. For applications, not websites. I see a lot in common with lively kernel. SproutCore looks nice but it is very much a web technology. As to the comment about the complex part of applications not being the interface - on web apps I spend 95% of my time tweaking UI - fiddling CSS rules usually or typing endless nestings of builder methods to generate taggage to implement simple things. UI is all I do on the web. Anyhow, their demo is better than any gui builder that has appeared for squeak - morphic or web. I'm not here to trash seaside - I think it rocks. But I find the render/canvas extremely tiresome to work with because at the end of the day its still building web noise and I think lively kernel/ html5 canvas and cappucino/atlas are hinting at a major shift and some deep thinking and reexamination is in order. That's my point. -Todd Blanchard On Apr 8, 2009, at 7:57 AM, Sebastian Sastre wrote: > It says nothing about how good is to build the application itself. > Not to > mention scaling complexity. > So far I see no signal of that being better than a modern version of > visual > basic for the web. On Apr 8, 2009, at 7:12 AM, Boris Popov wrote: > a) any design choices beyond what they offer might be hard to > implement > b) the complex part of today's applications isn't the interface, it's > whatever is behind it _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
I keep hearing about this and in practice it seems to be a fantasy.
I've worked with a half dozen designers in the last year and none of them have more than a rudimentary skill level with CSS and I end up correcting a lot of it. I no longer buy into that idea of separation of design and functionality unless you're just talking about maybe color schemes and even then I find that most designers don't factor stuff into classes cleanly. On Apr 8, 2009, at 10:39 AM, Boris Popov wrote: > if you separate coding from design and have > professionals working in their own element on each, developers can > focus > on functionality and designers can focus on design. _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
I disagree, there are tons of talented designers out there who are into
semantic layout and CSS, I'm sorry to hear that your experiences weren't very positive. We usually use Dave Shea to do the work for us and I couldn't have been happier. -Boris -- +1.604.689.0322 DeepCove Labs Ltd. 4th floor 595 Howe Street Vancouver, Canada V6C 2T5 http://tinyurl.com/r7uw4 [hidden email] CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email is intended only for the persons named in the message header. Unless otherwise indicated, it contains information that is private and confidential. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender and delete the entire message including any attachments. Thank you. -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Eagle Offshore Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2009 12:03 PM To: Seaside - general discussion Subject: Re: [Seaside] Anybody see this? I keep hearing about this and in practice it seems to be a fantasy. I've worked with a half dozen designers in the last year and none of them have more than a rudimentary skill level with CSS and I end up correcting a lot of it. I no longer buy into that idea of separation of design and functionality unless you're just talking about maybe color schemes and even then I find that most designers don't factor stuff into classes cleanly. On Apr 8, 2009, at 10:39 AM, Boris Popov wrote: > if you separate coding from design and have > professionals working in their own element on each, developers can > focus > on functionality and designers can focus on design. _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
In reply to this post by Boris Popov, DeepCove Labs (SNN)
+1. If this where only a matter of UI alone, then all where be using flash from
quite some time. But is not. We are all in prescence of something bigger. The result of the merge of two values: 1. design (mostly from the web world) 2. function (mostly from the engeneering world) play your part in this history or be invisible, cheers sebastian > -----Mensaje original----- > De: [hidden email] > [mailto:[hidden email]] En nombre > de Boris Popov > Enviado el: Wednesday, April 08, 2009 14:40 > Para: Seaside - general discussion > Asunto: RE: [Seaside] Anybody see this? > > I guess where I can't relate to this is the part about tweaking the > design, because if you separate coding from design and have > professionals working in their own element on each, > developers can focus > on functionality and designers can focus on design. Most usable web > applications don't just have input fields, lists and buttons. You can > tell I'm sceptical, but I'll be keeping an eye on things as they > develop. There's a long history of UI builders failing for > many reasons > and we have yet to see one succeed. > > -Boris > > -- > +1.604.689.0322 > DeepCove Labs Ltd. > 4th floor 595 Howe Street > Vancouver, Canada V6C 2T5 > http://tinyurl.com/r7uw4 > > [hidden email] > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE > > This email is intended only for the persons named in the > message header. > Unless otherwise indicated, it contains information that is > private and > confidential. If you have received it in error, please notify > the sender > and delete the entire message including any attachments. > > Thank you. > -----Original Message----- > From: [hidden email] > [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Eagle > Offshore > Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2009 10:32 AM > To: Seaside - general discussion > Subject: Re: [Seaside] Anybody see this? > > Its funny but I'm hearing seasiders dismiss this technology > using many > of the same arguments that non-seasiders use to dismiss > seaside. You > sound exactly the same as your detractors. > > There are multiple backends for capuccino - including php. > PHP scales > like crazy. Not worried. It is not hard to imagine writing > a single > data access handler to bridge database requests and forgetting about > it. There's a nice little minimal ActiveRecord for PHP I > just used on > a prototype that kicks any database access technology I've used in > Squeak in simplicity, usability, and speed. > > They've essentially implemented Cocoa in Javascript > (Capuccino) and a > commercial product using that (http://280slides.com/), and > now they're > using that to implement Interface Builder and XCode. They say it > works in all common browsers identically including IE6. > > To me it looks very "turtles all the way down" but abstracts > away the > whole web trash heap. For applications, not websites. I see > a lot in > common with lively kernel. SproutCore looks nice but it is > very much > a web technology. > > As to the comment about the complex part of applications not > being the > interface - on web apps I spend 95% of my time tweaking UI - > fiddling > CSS rules usually or typing endless nestings of builder methods to > generate taggage to implement simple things. UI is all I do > on the web. > > Anyhow, their demo is better than any gui builder that has appeared > for squeak - morphic or web. > > I'm not here to trash seaside - I think it rocks. But I find the > render/canvas extremely tiresome to work with because at the end of > the day its still building web noise and I think lively > kernel/ html5 > canvas and cappucino/atlas are hinting at a major shift and > some deep > thinking and reexamination is in order. That's my point. > > -Todd Blanchard > > On Apr 8, 2009, at 7:57 AM, Sebastian Sastre wrote: > > > It says nothing about how good is to build the application itself. > > Not to > > mention scaling complexity. > > So far I see no signal of that being better than a modern > version of > > visual > > basic for the web. > > > On Apr 8, 2009, at 7:12 AM, Boris Popov wrote: > > a) any design choices beyond what they offer might be hard to > > implement > > b) the complex part of today's applications isn't the > interface, it's > > whatever is behind it > _______________________________________________ > seaside mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside > _______________________________________________ > seaside mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
In reply to this post by Eagle Offshore
> -----Mensaje original-----
and there are thousands of programmers that are still using crappy languages to
> De: [hidden email] > [mailto:[hidden email]] En nombre > de Eagle Offshore > Enviado el: Wednesday, April 08, 2009 16:03 > Para: Seaside - general discussion > Asunto: Re: [Seaside] Anybody see this? > > I keep hearing about this and in practice it seems to be a fantasy. > I've worked with a half dozen designers in the last year and none of > them have more than a rudimentary skill level with CSS and I end up > correcting a lot of it. > do sh*tty code and it has nothing to do with putting real talent to work well. If you can't find that, then is part of the job to build a path to the goal. > I no longer buy into that idea of separation of design and > functionality unless you're just talking about maybe color > schemes and > even then I find that most designers don't factor stuff into classes > cleanly. > then you lowered you guard to find how to work well about that or you talk demotivated due to past fights of wrongly chosen battles. We always need to choose battles wisely, cheers sebastian > On Apr 8, 2009, at 10:39 AM, Boris Popov wrote: > > > if you separate coding from design and have > > professionals working in their own element on each, developers can > > focus > > on functionality and designers can focus on design. > > _______________________________________________ > seaside mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
In reply to this post by Eagle Offshore
> > As to the comment about the complex part of applications not being the > interface - on web apps I spend 95% of my time tweaking UI - fiddling > CSS rules usually or typing endless nestings of builder methods to > generate taggage to implement simple things. UI is all I do on the web. I wouldn't say "UI is all I do", but it definitely is the main component for me as well. > > Anyhow, their demo is better than any gui builder that has appeared > for squeak - morphic or web. Isn't seaBreeze more-or-less in the same space as Atlas? I think seaBreeze might even have a leg up on Atlas in this space. Nevin _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
I still think that this is not that easy to define really stupid
applications managing list of items. There is a lack of ready to customize solutions. edit add/delete see report output report for really stupid items. I see this as a reccurring patterns. I imagine the same for tabbed menu navigation _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
There are a couple good solutions I've found lately.
ActiveScaffold for Ruby on Rails is great for just getting CRUD happening - I used it to avoid writing a LOT of admin UI on a recent project. Django has "the admin" module - also really amazing as an easy to customize admin solution (but not from the browser). Good end to end solutions are appearing for data editing - but not so much for more conventional application widgetry with layout management and such. On Apr 8, 2009, at 11:51 PM, stephane ducasse wrote: > I still think that this is not that easy to define really stupid > applications managing list of items. > There is a lack of ready to customize solutions. > > edit > add/delete > see report > output report > > for really stupid items. > I see this as a reccurring patterns. > > I imagine the same for > tabbed > menu > navigation > _______________________________________________ > seaside mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
On Apr 9, 2009, at 10:07 PM, Eagle Offshore wrote: > There are a couple good solutions I've found lately. > > ActiveScaffold for Ruby on Rails is great for just getting CRUD > happening - I used it to avoid writing a LOT of admin UI on a recent > project. I imagine and I still think that this is cruelly missing in Seaside. I do not ask the seaside team to work on that but as a community we could really get something. Right now for such kind of applications people should go to ruby -- sounds bad to me. Stef > > > Django has "the admin" module - also really amazing as an easy to > customize admin solution (but not from the browser). > > Good end to end solutions are appearing for data editing - but not > so much for more conventional application widgetry with layout > management and such. > > On Apr 8, 2009, at 11:51 PM, stephane ducasse wrote: > >> I still think that this is not that easy to define really stupid >> applications managing list of items. >> There is a lack of ready to customize solutions. >> >> edit >> add/delete >> see report >> output report >> >> for really stupid items. >> I see this as a reccurring patterns. >> >> I imagine the same for >> tabbed >> menu >> navigation >> _______________________________________________ >> seaside mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside > > _______________________________________________ > seaside mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside > _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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