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keith1y

Author in Squeak (Thread moved over from smallwiki)

stéphane ducasse wrote:
> Apparently there is no value in what we are doing:
I didn't say that, is that what you believe?
> removing etoy, removing a lot of ***SHIT*** from squeak, fixing tons
> of bugs (the bug archives
> is full of fixed bugs and fixes problems), writing more tests,
> cleaning a HUGE spaghetti mess
> (preferences....). Utilities is one of this crap.
Not much use to me I am afraid, if my code cant work interoperably
between squeak and pharo, then I cant port any of my existing projects over.

Hmm what is needed for this... oh yes

Installing and package loading tools that are managed outside of any one
image as a common resource for everyone, that all those wise and
knowledgeable about such things should contribute to. This needs
political will to promote collaboration at this level.

The problem with this idea is that I myself am not good enough nor do I
have the time to realise the vision. I wonder where the people that do
have the knowledge to do this are. Oh yes they are all working on Pharo!
So that leaves the rest of us scuppered, thanks...

You still don't understand, my argument against pharo is NOT that you
will not use my code, it is that you will NOT contribute resources to
the community in such a way as can be used for the benefit of all. i.e.
MC1.5 is a project outside of Pharo and Squeak that you could contribute
to, but you wont. So is SUnit, and SSpec etc. Furthermore those projects
may be doomed to failure if you dont contribute, after all your team has
the knowledge of traits which no one else has, I certainly don't. MC1.5
needs your team's input, and has needed it for over a year, yet you will
not see it as something worth contributing to for the benefit of all. So
MC1.5 is dead in the water and 2 years of work has been wasted.
> And of course Author could be made a bit better.
Author, what is Author, Author doesn't exist for Squeak users.

If you would think in a community minded way, Author would be another
external package, that is available for all.
> Of course there is no preference to avoid to warn on deprecated call!
>
> Apparently you only do stuff right. Perfect!
I didn't say that, is this what you believe?

I am saying the opposite, and I have always been saying the opposite. I
need others to collaborate to make these ideas a success. I am primarily
an ideas man, my code is not that brilliant until the third or fourth
iteration. My concern is that the Pharo team continuously seek to
compete not to contribute.
> But we will do it our way. Period.
Exactly the opposite attitude to what is needed in this situation. No
wonder we are not getting anywhere.

Keith

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Igor Stasenko

Re: Author in Squeak (Thread moved over from smallwiki)

2009/5/5 Keith Hodges <[hidden email]>:

> stéphane ducasse wrote:
>> Apparently there is no value in what we are doing:
> I didn't say that, is that what you believe?
>> removing etoy, removing a lot of ***SHIT*** from squeak, fixing tons
>> of bugs (the bug archives
>> is full of fixed bugs and fixes problems), writing more tests,
>> cleaning a HUGE spaghetti mess
>> (preferences....). Utilities is one of this crap.
> Not much use to me I am afraid, if my code cant work interoperably
> between squeak and pharo, then I cant port any of my existing projects over.
>
> Hmm what is needed for this... oh yes
>
> Installing and package loading tools that are managed outside of any one
> image as a common resource for everyone, that all those wise and
> knowledgeable about such things should contribute to. This needs
> political will to promote collaboration at this level.
>
> The problem with this idea is that I myself am not good enough nor do I
> have the time to realise the vision. I wonder where the people that do
> have the knowledge to do this are. Oh yes they are all working on Pharo!
> So that leaves the rest of us scuppered, thanks...
>
> You still don't understand, my argument against pharo is NOT that you
> will not use my code, it is that you will NOT contribute resources to
> the community in such a way as can be used for the benefit of all. i.e.
> MC1.5 is a project outside of Pharo and Squeak that you could contribute
> to, but you wont. So is SUnit, and SSpec etc. Furthermore those projects
> may be doomed to failure if you dont contribute, after all your team has
> the knowledge of traits which no one else has, I certainly don't. MC1.5
> needs your team's input, and has needed it for over a year, yet you will
> not see it as something worth contributing to for the benefit of all. So
> MC1.5 is dead in the water and 2 years of work has been wasted.
>> And of course Author could be made a bit better.
> Author, what is Author, Author doesn't exist for Squeak users.
>
> If you would think in a community minded way, Author would be another
> external package, that is available for all.
>> Of course there is no preference to avoid to warn on deprecated call!
>>
>> Apparently you only do stuff right. Perfect!
> I didn't say that, is this what you believe?
>
> I am saying the opposite, and I have always been saying the opposite. I
> need others to collaborate to make these ideas a success. I am primarily
> an ideas man, my code is not that brilliant until the third or fourth
> iteration.

Neither do i. I learn from my mistakes, trying to learn from other's mistakes.

> My concern is that the Pharo team continuously seek to
> compete not to contribute.
>> But we will do it our way. Period.
> Exactly the opposite attitude to what is needed in this situation. No
> wonder we are not getting anywhere.
>

Keith, IMO, its too early to say that Pharo team is not contributing.
People making things as they get used to. And who you are (or me, or
anyone else) to have a right to dictate them how to do it?
Getting in the middle of process and pointing that they doing it wrong
is not a good tone.
Let us wait for release, when we could have a pieces of code which is
stabilized. Only then we could think about porting/contributing etc.
And only then you can point to wrong/bad things, but not now :)

> Keith
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
>

--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

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Pharo-project mailing list
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Michael Atkisson

Re: Author in Squeak (Thread moved over from smallwiki)

In reply to this post by keith1y

My impression. This is a bunch of whining. I am not trying to be imflamatory
but that is my impression. For my part, I don't care two dead flies about compatibility
with squeak. I am very happy that a bunch of very bright and motivated
individuals are working hard to produce a stable open source smalltalk
that can be used for Professional development.

Keith Hodges wrote

stéphane ducasse wrote:
> Apparently there is no value in what we are doing:
I didn't say that, is that what you believe?
> removing etoy, removing a lot of ***SHIT*** from squeak, fixing tons
> of bugs (the bug archives
> is full of fixed bugs and fixes problems), writing more tests,
> cleaning a HUGE spaghetti mess
> (preferences....). Utilities is one of this crap.
Not much use to me I am afraid, if my code cant work interoperably
between squeak and pharo, then I cant port any of my existing projects over.

Hmm what is needed for this... oh yes

Installing and package loading tools that are managed outside of any one
image as a common resource for everyone, that all those wise and
knowledgeable about such things should contribute to. This needs
political will to promote collaboration at this level.

The problem with this idea is that I myself am not good enough nor do I
have the time to realise the vision. I wonder where the people that do
have the knowledge to do this are. Oh yes they are all working on Pharo!
So that leaves the rest of us scuppered, thanks...

You still don't understand, my argument against pharo is NOT that you
will not use my code, it is that you will NOT contribute resources to
the community in such a way as can be used for the benefit of all. i.e.
MC1.5 is a project outside of Pharo and Squeak that you could contribute
to, but you wont. So is SUnit, and SSpec etc. Furthermore those projects
may be doomed to failure if you dont contribute, after all your team has
the knowledge of traits which no one else has, I certainly don't. MC1.5
needs your team's input, and has needed it for over a year, yet you will
not see it as something worth contributing to for the benefit of all. So
MC1.5 is dead in the water and 2 years of work has been wasted.
> And of course Author could be made a bit better.
Author, what is Author, Author doesn't exist for Squeak users.

If you would think in a community minded way, Author would be another
external package, that is available for all.
> Of course there is no preference to avoid to warn on deprecated call!
>
> Apparently you only do stuff right. Perfect!
I didn't say that, is this what you believe?

I am saying the opposite, and I have always been saying the opposite. I
need others to collaborate to make these ideas a success. I am primarily
an ideas man, my code is not that brilliant until the third or fourth
iteration. My concern is that the Pharo team continuously seek to
compete not to contribute.
> But we will do it our way. Period.
Exactly the opposite attitude to what is needed in this situation. No
wonder we are not getting anywhere.

Keith

_______________________________________________
Pharo-project mailing list
Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr
http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project