Blender for Croquet? Other or better options?

Hello everyone, in January Croquet was selected as a foundation technology on top of which the next generation (3rd generation) of Immersive Education will be built. You can read more by clicking on the "POST SUMMIT SUMMARY ANNOUNCEMENT" link (or button) that's on the Immersive Education Initiative site at

   http://ImmersiveEducation.org

We are now preparing an Immersive Education "Croquet bundle" that includes the runtime, documentation and tutorials, and authoring tools. The learning bundle will be provided both to the Immersive Education K12 pilot schools and higher eduction. A key part of the bundle is the authoring tool, which must be free (ideally open source, but that's a preference and not a requirement -- as long as the authoring tool is free, and not a for-fee product, we can bundle it for educators and students).

With this in mind I'd welcome your thoughts on Blender as a content authoring tool for Croquet. If you've used it, or currently do use it, could you reply with some notes on how well (or not!) Blender works for you when creating Croquet content (3D objects, avatars, scenes/worlds, etc)?

If you don't use Blender but use another authoring tool your thoughts about that would be a great help as well -- do you recommend a different free authoring tool, and if not what commercial (for-fee) tool do you use when creating content for Blender (Maya, for example)?

With thanks in advance for sharing your Croquet content creating experience as we prepare the Immersive Education learning bundle (which, when it's available, you're more than welcome to use or share with others, of course).

Regards,
Aaron



--
Boston College: http://bc.edu
Media Grid: http://MediaGrid.org
Immersive Education: http://ImmersiveEducation.org
Personal page: http://gridinstitute.com/people/aew/

For static content, there are lots of import formats floating around  
for Croquet.  For animated content, the Minnesota avatar code depends  
on import through Ogre XML, and this has driven the decision on the  
tools that I've been using at Qwaq.

Fortunately, we're able to use 3DS Max, which has been pretty good  
about:
   Importing stuff developed elsewhere in lots of formats, including  
made-for-Max content or using 3rd party plugins (e.g., for Collada).
   Rigging & skinning within Max. E.g., the Biped skeleton just  
works. The Skin modifier is not horrible to use.
   Exporting as Ogre XML using a 3rd party tool.

Alas, I have not been able to achieve all three with less expensive  
tools. I've tried and failed with Poser, Daz studio, Fragmotion.

-H


On Feb 24, 2008, at 10:19 AM, Aaron E. Walsh wrote:

Hi:

It has occurred to me that Croquet lacks an authoring tool inside it. I
have therefore started to port my CAD software to Croquet with the help of
three final year students in Malaysia.
freeCAD: 3D CAD with Motion Simulation
http://ar-cad.com
Although not as sophisticated as Blender yet, freeCAD is 100% Visualworks
Smalltalk and OpenGL. So porting should be quite simple and the power of
Smalltalk can be used to extend it indefinitely. It also adds motion
simulation which is very useful for teaching of physics and mechanics.

At least two of the students are keen to continue working on this project
after graduation in June. I am looking for sponsors to support them. It
will cost less than $1000/month/person. Let me know if you have questions
or interests.

All the best,
Aik-Siong Koh

> Hello everyone, in January Croquet was selected as a foundation
technology
> on top of which the next generation (3rd generation) of Immersive
Education will be built. You can read more by clicking on the "POST
SUMMIT
> SUMMARY ANNOUNCEMENT" link (or button) that's on the Immersive Education
Initiative site at
>
>    http://ImmersiveEducation.org
>
> We are now preparing an Immersive Education "Croquet bundle" that
includes
> the runtime, documentation and tutorials, and authoring tools. The
learning bundle will be provided both to the Immersive Education K12
pilot
> schools and higher eduction. A key part of the bundle is the authoring
tool, which must be free (ideally open source, but that's a preference
and
> not a requirement -- as long as the authoring tool is free, and not a
for-fee product, we can bundle it for educators and students).
>
> With this in mind I'd welcome your thoughts on Blender as a content
authoring tool for Croquet. If you've used it, or currently do use it,
could you reply with some notes on how well (or not!) Blender works for
you when creating Croquet content (3D objects, avatars, scenes/worlds,
etc)?
>
> If you don't use Blender but use another authoring tool your thoughts
about that would be a great help as well -- do you recommend a different
free authoring tool, and if not what commercial (for-fee) tool do you
use
> when creating content for Blender (Maya, for example)?
>
> With thanks in advance for sharing your Croquet content creating
experience as we prepare the Immersive Education learning bundle (which,
when it's available, you're more than welcome to use or share with
others,

On Feb 24, 2008, at 8:19 AM, Aaron E. Walsh wrote:

> With this in mind I'd welcome your thoughts on Blender as a content  
> authoring tool for Croquet. If you've used it, or currently do use  
> it, could you reply with some notes on how well (or not!) Blender  
> works for you when creating Croquet content (3D objects, avatars,  
> scenes/worlds, etc)?

We use Blender in our CNC production company. While it has some  
strengths, and is impressively gaining new features all the time, it's  
really not meant for 'lay people'. Anyone with little prior 3D  
knowledge will find it very hard to use and learn.

And honestly, many things Blender focuses on are useless for Croquet.  
For example, there is a lot of focus lately in the development of  
Blender on making impressive simulation tools. Like fluids, smoke, and  
even advanced cloth simulation is in the beta currently. Or in the  
multi-res subdivision modeling and sculpting. These tools aren't for  
low-poly avatar and scene modeling honestly, and will probably just  
confuse folks trying to use Blender, yet are becoming a pretty core  
element within it.

What would be ideal is a in-world content creator. Then you'd also be  
able to take advantage of the natural benefits of Croquet. For  
example, having more than one person working on the same thing at the  
same time in Blender is complex-to-impossible depending on what you're  
trying to do. An in-world content creator would be a very impressive  
draw for Croquet in general IMHO.

Jeffrey McGrew
www.becausewecan.org

Hi,

It's interesting to investigate the state of VW technology, and at the
same time get in touch with about 70 typical potential "end-users" of
next gen virtual worlds, show them existing demos, talk about
capabilities, ... and get their feedback and recommendations.
We all want open virtual worlds to be successful isn't it ?

Virtual worlds is comprising several areas, most of them under
development/enhancement these days-- and sometimes in orthogonal
directions. ;-)

Let's be frank: objects' format, rendering techno/tool, architectural
networking model, .. are all important considerations, but only ONE
aspect seems critical to the "end-users": the capability to select,
customize, modify avatars with a high flexibility.

Today the only really large, rich and flexible avatars management
systems we have found are only part of proprietary virtual worlds
platforms !!

Considering the importance of the avatars' dimension to end-users
(psychology), do we want proprietary platforms to be successful in the
future instead of open source platforms ?

Are we just ostriches when looking at open virtual worlds, animals that
put their little heads in the ground moving open virtual worlds the way
we think this should be done instead of listening to what the
world-wide-population is expecting ?

Let it be ..

-michel

Hi Aik-Siong Koh,

I'm just curious if your CAD system is both a solid-modeler and a
surface-modeler. I think Croquet models would need a surface-modeler
more than a solid-modeler for performance reasons and educational
purposes. Both might be nice, but for the fewer domains that "require"
solid-models current alternative tools might be better. What do you
think?

Cheers,
Darius

On Sun, Feb 24, 2008 at 4:02 PM, Aik-Siong Koh <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi:

Thanks for your interest. My goal for freeCAD since 2000 has been to
create a Smalltalk system for Computer Aided Design, Simulation and
Manufacturing (CADSM). For the work to date see my paper at Smalltalk
Solutions 2007:
http://askoh.net/misc/cadsm/kohaS231.pdf
It is my believe that Smalltalk can produce better CADSM type software
than any other development environment. Now that Croquet is available, it
seems very logical to bring freeCAD, hence CADSM, into Croquet.

freeCAD uses NURBS boundary representation of solids, faces and edges. So
it can be simple or complex. Its GUI is very lacking, so much of the core
is not visible. It has an non-manifold topology solid modeler based on
radial edge method. It can import STEP files from SolidWorks and DXF files
from AutoCAD. Its motion engine is accurate enough for engineering
simulation.

All the best,
Aik-Siong Koh
http://ar-cad.com



> Hi Aik-Siong Koh,
>
> I'm just curious if your CAD system is both a solid-modeler and a
surface-modeler. I think Croquet models would need a surface-modeler
more than a solid-modeler for performance reasons and educational
purposes. Both might be nice, but for the fewer domains that "require"
solid-models current alternative tools might be better. What do you
think?
>
> Cheers,
> Darius
>
> On Sun, Feb 24, 2008 at 4:02 PM, Aik-Siong Koh <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hi:
>>  It has occurred to me that Croquet lacks an authoring tool inside it.
I
>>  have therefore started to port my CAD software to Croquet with the
help
>> of
>>  three final year students in Malaysia.
>>  freeCAD: 3D CAD with Motion Simulation
>>  http://ar-cad.com
>>  Although not as sophisticated as Blender yet, freeCAD is 100%
>> Visualworks
>>  Smalltalk and OpenGL. So porting should be quite simple and the power
>> of
>>  Smalltalk can be used to extend it indefinitely. It also adds motion
simulation which is very useful for teaching of physics and mechanics.
At least two of the students are keen to continue working on this
>> project
>>  after graduation in June. I am looking for sponsors to support them.
It
>>  will cost less than $1000/month/person. Let me know if you have
>> questions
>>  or interests.
>>  All the best,
>>  Aik-Siong Koh

--- "Aaron E. Walsh" <[hidden email]> wrote:
I used a Blender that came from somebody's Darwin
portfile
to get it going on the mac and am in book 2 of Americo
tutorials. I've been distracted by other things and
hope to pick up my intuitions again.

Americo wrote his instructions for pc blender.
>
> If you don't use Blender ...
>
> With thanks in advance for sharing your Croquet
> content creating experience as we prepare the
> Immersive Education learning bundle (which, when
> it's available, you're more than welcome to use or
> share with others, of course).
Will be interested.
>
> ...
>

--- Aik-Siong Koh <[hidden email]> wrote:

>...
> http://ar-cad.com
I looked at this and dispaired, it's probably pc and
not for my mac.
Then :
> Although not as sophisticated as Blender yet,
> freeCAD is 100% Visualworks
> Smalltalk and OpenGL. So porting should be quite
> simple ...
google wiki Visualworks and find version of smalltalk

So, the whole thing could sit on the virtual machine
on any platform,
mac or pc or linux box.

Cool.

--- Jeffrey McGrew <[hidden email]> wrote:
I know my version came from a Darwin portfile making a
package.
How Darwin ports evolve is a mystery to me.
I have huge amounts of hypertext
in free Maya personal learning edition
which might serve to make me not a lay person,
though I don't have the investment in digital art
to really be their as a non lay person.
I have invested in reading an entire textbook by
Edward Angel
and know enough to know this 3D stuff is fascinating.
>it's  
> really not meant for 'lay people'. Anyone with
> little prior 3D  
> knowledge will find it very hard to use and learn.
Maybe I have hope.
>
> And honestly, many things Blender focuses on are
> useless for Croquet.  
> For example, there is a lot of focus lately in the
> development of  
> Blender on making impressive simulation tools. Like
> fluids, smoke, and  
> even advanced cloth simulation is in the beta
> currently.
Wow! That stuff made Maya cost $9000.

>Or in the  
> multi-res subdivision modeling and sculpting. These
> tools aren't for  
> low-poly avatar and scene modeling honestly, and
> will probably just  
> confuse folks trying to use Blender, yet are
> becoming a pretty core  
> element within it.
So, you are writing this complex payoff without
documentation
will discourage capturing entry level people.

I give a slight counterpoint since I have time to
study things not needing employment.

I explored Maya before reading openGL programming to
see what the "big boys" did.
Still, afterwards, undiscouraged, I had much adventure
as a "little boy" with "Interactive Computer
Graphics".

I ask you all to consider that forcing too much of
high level or low level experience
in packaging produces an imbalance.

With Maya, there are little lessons to step through
the tomes of manhours embedded in it.
With blender there are no documented exercises except
Americo's (that's why he's "good", he "made something
doable").
With interactive computer graphics, are problems that
had to be solved by students for years
and in the chapters normally reached in a course
tested as soluble by students.

I went through the whole book, not just a course, and
one chapter had insoluble problems
that would take several lifetimes (I didn't do them
and tried not to feel guilty, so I would "finish" the
book).

>
> What would be ideal is a in-world content creator.
> Then you'd also be  
> able to take advantage of the natural benefits of
> Croquet.
I believe in world might mean that all graphics images
involve big saves which make images incompatible
for collaboration. Rather, in world should mean
several should have external files such as obj or ASE
that are somehow synced.

That is :
In world could also  mean coexistence in a virtual
world as we see each other building stuff together.

On muddier ground :
Ordinarily, powerful tools cost money and those with
capital hire extreme specialists to amortize costs of
those
tools. When powerful tools don't cost money, we begin
to wonder how will many
unspecialized people collaborate in complexity. Must
we specialize them, how can we allow them to learn,
how will they want to learn?!

I leave off here to allow your thoughts.