Blitzkrieg!
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2015-01-19 17:48 GMT+01:00 [hidden email] <[hidden email]>: Maybe you can share some facts before you say things like "I achieved more in a few weeks than ESUG achieved in years". I'd be curious to see what you are talking about and I guess I am not alone. sure, I am curious too! Luc |
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In reply to this post by jtuchel
> On 19 Jan 2015, at 17:48, [hidden email] wrote: > > All that's been said so far is that some people do not like the use of some military terms, no matter where they come from and whether people know what these mean or not. We are not on a crusade, and this is not about conquering anything or anybody. I am sorry, Joachim, but that is not true: he just said (ok, implicitly) that ESUG is worthless. And he said many more quite hurtful things by stating 'facts' or comparing (as equal or unequal) or rating different projects. Yes, since he wrote his first 'essay', it seems that he knows more or less what Smalltalk is, further than that I am sceptical. |
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In reply to this post by horrido
On Mon, Jan 19, 2015 at 11:56 PM, horrido <[hidden email]> wrote:
The thing is... by over-promoting yourself, you implicitly put down these groups, which consist of the very same people that are the leaders of this community. That is not very astute. You are not marketing yourself very well to the community you purport to represent.
The other thing is... you don't see much other people on the list bemoaning that they've done so much. Constructively, I'd ask you to pay attention to this... -ben P.S. Earlier I meant to provide you this link to the "Blub Paradox", you might like to refer to in your writings. |
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In reply to this post by Sven Van Caekenberghe-2
Sven, I got Richard’s message about ESUG and I asked for facts. It seems you didn't read my full post… Joachim > On 19 Jan 2015, at 17:48, [hidden email] wrote: > > All that's been said so far is that some people do not like the use of some military terms, no matter where they come from and whether people know what these mean or not. We are not on a crusade, and this is not about conquering anything or anybody. I am sorry, Joachim, but that is not true: he just said (ok, implicitly) that ESUG is worthless. And he said many more quite hurtful things by stating 'facts' or comparing (as equal or unequal) or rating different projects. Yes, since he wrote his first 'essay', it seems that he knows more or less what Smalltalk is, further than that I am sceptical. |
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In reply to this post by Sven Van Caekenberghe-2
> On 19 Jan 2015, at 20:00, <[hidden email]> <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Sven, > > I got Richard’s message about ESUG and I asked for facts. It seems you didn't read my full post… I did read it, it was well written and I agree with what you said. But you were too polite, you give him the benefit of the doubt. I don't think that I have to remind anyone of what ESUG means (now and in the past) for the larger Smalltalk community. I just do not even want to make that comparison, not even for the sake of the discussion. > Joachim > > Von: Sven Van Caekenberghe > Gesendet: Montag, 19. Januar 2015 19:17 > An: Any question about pharo is welcome > > > > On 19 Jan 2015, at 17:48, [hidden email] wrote: > > > > All that's been said so far is that some people do not like the use of some military terms, no matter where they come from and whether people know what these mean or not. We are not on a crusade, and this is not about conquering anything or anybody. > > I am sorry, Joachim, but that is not true: he just said (ok, implicitly) that ESUG is worthless. And he said many more quite hurtful things by stating 'facts' or comparing (as equal or unequal) or rating different projects. > > Yes, since he wrote his first 'essay', it seems that he knows more or less what Smalltalk is, further than that I am sceptical. |
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Sven,
>> I got Richard’s message about ESUG and I asked for facts. It seems you didn't read my full post… > I did read it, it was well written and I agree with what you said. Thanks. > > But you were too polite, you give him the benefit of the doubt. No, I asked for proof. Too polite? Well, not all the comments from the other side were polite, and I tried to help deescalate. > I don't think that I have to remind anyone of what ESUG means (now and in the past) for the larger Smalltalk community. I just do not even want to make that comparison, not even for the sake of the discussion. As long as there are no facts on the table, I think there are more people than just ESUG that have good reasons to be offended. We've had and still have quite a few initiatives that promote Smalltalk and where inidividuals or groups put lots of effort into. Be it blogs, books, link collections, meta-sites or whatever. Overall there is much more going on around Smalltalk than, say, ten years ago. I wanted to give Richard a chance to give us facts to understand why he thinks he has achieved more than others, and I think nobody benefits if we just bash a person for his choice of words in a few postings. I personally have no idea what he's up to and if he's working on something spectacular. We haven't seen it yet, but he pre-announced a lot. Joachim |
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In reply to this post by Marcus Denker-4
Le 19/1/15 14:14, Marcus Denker a écrit : >> On 18 Jan 2015, at 13:16, horrido <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> This is a fine line to tread. I have several problems with self-censorship: >> >> First of all, "Generalissimo" is just a handle. My previous handle, >> "horrido", was surely objectionable as well, since it's a play on the battle >> cry associated with the WWII German Luftwaffe ( Horrido: Fighter Aces of the >> Luftwaffe >> <http://www.amazon.ca/Horrido-Luftwaffe-Raymond-F-Toliver/dp/0553126636> ). >> >> I admit to being a WWII buff. I have been for many years. Should I apologize >> for this? > As a german living in France I feel insulted. you should not marcus. German strategy was much smarter than french arrogance with the idiot maginot line :) (I know I'm french) Now this has nothing to do with this mailing-list. So we should stop this thread for real now. > > Marcus > |
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Steph,
I completely agree. This type of hyperbole makes the casual observer think that the Smalltalk community can come off as petty. We're better than this. We should ALL have the goal of promoting Smalltalk. I know that a lot of you have and I applaud all of you for your efforts. The more the merrier. I personally welcome any and all exposure to the benefits of Smalltalk, if it's positive. I may not agree with everything that is promoted, but as long as it has the potential of converting people into looking at Smalltalk, regardless of the version, then I'm OK with that. So, I plead with everyone, both creators and critics, keep it civil, positive, and centered on the goal of promoting Smalltalk. (We can't eat our own and expect to survive). Brad Selfridge
Brad Selfridge
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In reply to this post by Sven Van Caekenberghe-2
There is much to respond to here. First of all, I was NOT putting down ESUG or Smalltalk Foundation. I was simply pointing out that, despite their promotional efforts, Smalltalk has slipped out of the public consciousness, as evidenced by language rankings and coverage in the IT press, as well as the fact that Smalltalk does not compete well against the likes of Java for enterprise adoption. Have I made any inaccurate observations here?
Second, I am NOT trying to over-promote myself or even promote myself at all. The only reason why I state my accomplishments is to defend myself against criticism. I don't want the SRP to be about me. I have repeatedly stated that the SRP is about you, the Smalltalk community. Without your support and contributions, I do not have a campaign. Period. To the extent that I am challenged in galvanizing the Smalltalk community, I have to visibly lead the charge. I know that everyone is pretty busy, so it is understandable that trying to get you to contribute is rather like pulling teeth. I accept that; it is part of my job. It is thus inevitable that my persona has to enter the picture. And this is apparently a point of friction. Third, it seems funny that I have to give you a "state of the union" report on the campaign. If you were paying attention at all, if you gave a damn, you would have all the information. But nevertheless, here goes... Through a web of social media, through my publications, through the mention of Smalltalk Renaissance in InfoWorld, word of Smalltalk is once again rippling out to the rest of the cybersphere. You can see this on my Twitter feed, where I am continually gaining followers, where my tweets are being retweeted and favourited. Who knows how far these tweets are propagating! It's hard to tell, but I'm guessing that Smalltalk is on the minds of a lot more people today than it was a month ago. Ditto for Facebook and Google+ where I'm also continually gaining followers and likes. I'm even gaining followers on WordPress, something that I did not expect. Moreover, exposure at Medium should not be underestimated. It gets a lot of eyeballs. The current tally of "The Smalltalk Revolution" is 14K views and 7.6K reads, with 16 recommendations. This is by far the most popular article I have ever written in my entire life! And I've written a lot of sh*t. Getting a mention in InfoWorld is a big deal. Congrats to James Ladd and Redline. You have no idea how hard it is to get the IT press to cover Smalltalk. I'm thankful for small victories. I have no idea what the impact of all this is, but if Smalltalk manages to get back onto the TIOBE language index in the next month or two, you can be pretty sure it's because of my efforts. Fourth, I am perfectly aware of all the Smalltalk material that have been published online over the years. It is truly voluminous and impressive. It is all part of a "grassroots" effort to promote Smalltalk, and this should not be dismissed. However, grassroots are NOT going to get you where you want to be...unless you are satisfied to remain in your niche forever. The idea that if you build it, they will come, is incredibly naive. You have built it. You are building it. Still, Smalltalk is not gaining a lot of converts. Why? Because you haven't told them a good story. You haven't persuaded them that Smalltalk has a future, after it has fizzled over the past 20 years. This is a tough perception to overcome. The SRP is your opportunity to tell your story. I believe you have the power to persuade. This was the whole idea behind my campaign. Fifth, if you don't believe in my campaign, or in what I'm doing, then why, oh, why am I wasting my time and energy?? If the issue is me, my undesirable persona, then perhaps I should step down and let someone else take over. I'm sure one of you can put in the same amount of time and energy that I have (6-8 hours a day, every day for the past several weeks, with many more weeks to come). I'm sure one of you has a better plan, a better strategy. I am not looking for recognition. I am not looking for gratitude (although a wee bit would be appreciated). I am not doing this because I'm an egotistical maniac. I'm doing it because I believe in Smalltalk. I'm doing it out of the kindness and goodness of my heart. But if you think so little of me, then tell me to F--- off. Because, seriously, I don't need this. |
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I bought more popcorn when I read in one of the articles http://horridohobbies.tumblr.com/:
30 years programming in FORTRAN, C/C++/C#/Objective-C, Java, Python |
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In reply to this post by horrido
Hi Richard, There has been a request to stop this thread, which I agree with is not productive, but you obviously put a lot of consideration into your last post, so I will do you the curtesy of a reply - but this will be my last comment on this thread.
On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 5:04 AM, horrido <[hidden email]> wrote: There is much to respond to here. First of all, I was NOT putting down ESUG or Smalltalk Foundation. That may not have been your intent - but that is the nature of such comparisons. I was simply pointing out that, despite their Indeed there is a great deal of industry inertia to overcome. However accuracy or otherwise was not in question. It was the tone.
but later you say "if Smalltalk manages to get back onto the TIOBE language index in the next month or two, you can be pretty sure it's because of my efforts." This is not the same as just reporting what you've achieved. The only reason why I state my accomplishments is to *defend* myself against criticism. That is natural, but is an argument like "the means justifies the ends". Now when you are new to a community, *defending* yourself can be a trap. To quote ESR from that link I provided earlier... "Remember: When that hacker tells you that you've screwed up, and (no matter how gruffly) tells you not to do it again, he's acting out of concern for (1) you and (2) his community. It would be much easier for him to ignore you and filter you out of his life. If you can't manage to be grateful, at least have a little dignity, don't whine, and don't expect to be treated like a fragile doll just because you're a newcomer with a theatrically hypersensitive soul and delusions of entitlement." Indeed, writing this is not fun. It takes time to find the right words and I'd rather be coding. However you do have great enthusiasm that would unfortunate to lose, if it can be tempered in this mail list to community norms. Keep the hyperbole for your articles. I don't want the SRP to be about me. I have repeatedly stated that the SRP is about *you*, the Smalltalk community. Without your support and contributions, I do not have a campaign. Period. But people can't be pushed. The the onus is on you needs to observe the community and understand what motivates its members. Build a reputation in areas important to THEM (as best you can determine from observation, not "just" asking) and then you are in a better position to get the answers you want. To the extent that I am challenged in galvanizing the Smalltalk community, I have to visibly lead the charge. I know that everyone is pretty busy, so it Yes, you've chosen a tough job. But if you want to get what you need, it is as much marketing yourself to the community as it is marketing Smalltalk to the outside world. Now note that marketing is not the same as selling or promoting yourself - its about understanding the market/community how you align with and appeal to their purpose.
There is a lot of industry inertia to overcome. Now actually, I like the idea of Pharo being a secret weapon, as described in Paul Graham's "Beating the Averages" (http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html) Because you haven't told them a good story. You haven't persuaded them that Smalltalk has a future, after it has fizzled over the past 20 years. This is a tough perception to overcome.
Because you believe in it regardless of any criticism. However I think the main issue is not your campaign, but the "way" you report and promote it here. If the issue is *me*, my undesirable persona, then perhaps I should step down and let someone else take over. I'm sure one of you can put in the same amount of time and energy that I have (6-8 hours a day, every day for the past several weeks, with many more weeks to come). Probably no one would. Most people here are busy coding. Hence the value you present. Perhaps your persona is the right thing required for the role you've chosen - but yes, there are some rough edges causing friction that need to be sorted out if everyone is going to work together. I'm sure one of you has a better plan, a better strategy. Personally I appreciate your efforts and enthusiasm - but in essence I think the community is more "under promise and over deliver" than your writing style. Maybe that is not so great for "getting the message out" , but it is what it is. Yours faithfully, -ben |
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I agree fully with all of what Ben said,
but I would like to say a last word before stopping me too, because that bother me and very probably other people. I thought about that thread in the train this morning, I was reading charlie hebdo "message de Cabu: allez les gars ne vous laissez pas abattre" bad translation: "come on guys dont let yourself be down (shot down in french)" Cabu was one of the charlie hebo magazine guys shot last week and very well known and loved in france. the epitaph was : "rions aux larmes" (let's laught to tears") That was really hard. Here I couldn't laugh at all even if I like to joke about everything (me, my bike, my code, things I like, the awkward and stupid the more I like - people do not always appreciate, they think I'm stupid and I am, so it's ok) I hate people who think they have rights over others. In the past I talked to several much older people (all dead now) whose lives where completely broken by war. That you are WWII buff is fine for you if you like that, for me I don't, even if my son liked to play war with soldiers figurines when he was 8 and I liked to played with him. He grew up, I did too (....... not completely sure for that one :) ), these are things I hate and I will allways be against. I will *never* rally up with a "blitzkrieg smalltalk" or "horiirod" or "generalisimo" whatever ... Even if I love smalltalk. As a PR campain Richard, this is upmost too bad taste for me. On the other hand, I think a carefully driven PR campaign could be good a thing, and it's great to see involved people, you worked hard on that. We could also talk of lot interesting things related to software evolution. For example that : - dinausors died because they where not agile enough to handle meteorits, should they have learned scrum in order to diversify ? :) - the graal quest seems to have failed in life, and in software too ? - smalltalk is mostly about implementing and refactoring living systems ? there are very actual great examples of that in software . -- Regards, Alain |
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Well, I've already apologized. You are right, I was oblivious to extra-cultural thinking, to which I plead ignorance. Now that I know better, I shall do better.
Please remember, I'm a volunteer. I stepped up when no one else would. Am I the best man for the job? Probably not, but who is?? I will make mistakes. Hopefully, I will learn from my mistakes. Hopefully, I will do a good job for you. As per Jimmie's advice, I have prepared a note that explains where I'm coming from, so that no one in the future should ever misconstrue my writings: http://horridohobbies.tumblr.com/ I still don't think there's anything wrong with me being a WWII buff, so I shall never apologize for that. However, I shall endeavour to be sensitive to people in other parts of the world. Where I stumble, I will expect you to correct me. After all, I am human. If you prick me, do I not bleed?
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Le 21/01/2015 00:38, horrido a écrit :
> Well, I've already apologized. You are right, I was oblivious to > extra-cultural thinking, to which I plead ignorance. Now that I know better, > I shall do better. > > Please remember, I'm a volunteer. I stepped up when no one else would. Am I > the best man for the job? Probably not, *but who is??* > > I will make mistakes. Hopefully, I will learn from my mistakes. Hopefully, I > will do a good job for you. > > As per Jimmie's advice, I have prepared a note that explains where I'm > coming from, so that no one in the future should ever misconstrue my > writings: http://horridohobbies.tumblr.com/ > > I still don't think there's anything wrong with me being a WWII buff, so I > shall never apologize for that. However, I shall endeavour to be sensitive > to people in other parts of the world. Where I stumble, I will expect you to > correct me. After all, I *am* human. If you prick me, do I not bleed? > your efforts are not the point. I just ask you *please* keep "blitzkrg" stuff for you, it *really* hurts nowadays, you have a right to like what you want, no problem with that, but again *please* keep that for you. Don't feel too bad, there is no aim to harm, just bad feelings on my side too. think about that, about your messages and I stop and *peace* :) -- Regards, Alain |
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