Bloc status
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Hi,
what is the current status of Bloc and Brick? How likely is it that Bloc goes into Pharo 7? Anyone able to give a short update on current work and plans? Thanks T. |
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Hi Torsten
I will let Doru present it in more detail but I think that he is in vacation. Now here is my take from the discussion I got at ESUG. - Bloc is getting stable and people should really start to use it. This is why we did the bloc tutorial. We need more on that front. I plan to use it for some projects during the lectures I will give at Prague. BTW I would like to have a turtle for my new book. :) - Brick The text editor was a really important element to build widgets. The text editor model is basically the second iteration based on TxText attempt. It scales well. As soon as we start to have widgets we should do a Spec mapping and see how we can get rid of the middle man (the adapter should not be used at runtime). Bloc and Brick are not on the Pharo 70 roadmap because the process should be fixed before. But we would love to have bloc and brick as preview. Esteban is currently working with Ronnie for the SDL integration, headless image and others. Stef On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 5:51 PM, Torsten Bergmann <[hidden email]> wrote: > Hi, > > what is the current status of Bloc and Brick? > How likely is it that Bloc goes into Pharo 7? > > Anyone able to give a short update on current work > and plans? > > Thanks > T. > |
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Hi,
Thanks for the question :). Indeed, the summary of Stef is quite good. Here are some additions: - Indeed, Bloc gets stable. Recently, we learned that we can optimize the layouts even more and Alex Syrel will work on that in the next couple of weeks, but this will not impact users. - We have just finished an alpha version of the editor that is both moldable and scalable. It’s alpha because there are still things to fine tune in the area of selection, insertion and deletion. - Having an editor is significant step because it is the most expensive (and the riskiest) widget mechanism. - After the layouts and editor we will focus on the model for interaction and animation of widgets and play with various classes of applications. - In the meantime, Theo Mugnier worked with Alain Plantec and did a brilliant job at providing an initial version of a SVG import-export. There are still things to do, but this is really cool work. I prefer to not go into estimations because I prefer to allow for the space to build crazy things, but we will work intensively on Bloc and Brick over the coming months, likely well into next year. Cheers, Doru > On Sep 19, 2017, at 8:46 PM, Stephane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Hi Torsten > > I will let Doru present it in more detail but I think that he is in vacation. > Now here is my take from the discussion I got at ESUG. > > - Bloc is getting stable and people should really start to use it. > This is why we did the bloc tutorial. We need more on that front. > I plan to use it for some projects > during the lectures I will give at Prague. > BTW I would like to have a turtle for my new book. :) > > - Brick > The text editor was a really important element to build widgets. > The text editor model is basically the second iteration based on > TxText attempt. > It scales well. > > As soon as we start to have widgets we should do a Spec mapping > and see how we can get rid of the middle man (the adapter should not > be used at runtime). > > Bloc and Brick are not on the Pharo 70 roadmap because the process > should be fixed before. > But we would love to have bloc and brick as preview. > > Esteban is currently working with Ronnie for the SDL integration, > headless image and others. > > Stef > > > > > > On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 5:51 PM, Torsten Bergmann <[hidden email]> wrote: >> Hi, >> >> what is the current status of Bloc and Brick? >> How likely is it that Bloc goes into Pharo 7? >> >> Anyone able to give a short update on current work >> and plans? >> >> Thanks >> T. >> > -- www.tudorgirba.com www.feenk.com "We are all great at making mistakes." |
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> Am 19.09.2017 um 22:50 schrieb Tudor Girba <[hidden email]>: > > Hi, > > Thanks for the question :). > > Indeed, the summary of Stef is quite good. > > Here are some additions: > - Indeed, Bloc gets stable. Recently, we learned that we can optimize the layouts even more and Alex Syrel will work on that in the next couple of weeks, but this will not impact users. can't this be done later? I would prefer that making Bloc and Brick usable is the first target. Norbert > - We have just finished an alpha version of the editor that is both moldable and scalable. It’s alpha because there are still things to fine tune in the area of selection, insertion and deletion. > - Having an editor is significant step because it is the most expensive (and the riskiest) widget mechanism. > - After the layouts and editor we will focus on the model for interaction and animation of widgets and play with various classes of applications. > - In the meantime, Theo Mugnier worked with Alain Plantec and did a brilliant job at providing an initial version of a SVG import-export. There are still things to do, but this is really cool work. > > I prefer to not go into estimations because I prefer to allow for the space to build crazy things, but we will work intensively on Bloc and Brick over the coming months, likely well into next year. > > Cheers, > Doru > > > >> On Sep 19, 2017, at 8:46 PM, Stephane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> Hi Torsten >> >> I will let Doru present it in more detail but I think that he is in vacation. >> Now here is my take from the discussion I got at ESUG. >> >> - Bloc is getting stable and people should really start to use it. >> This is why we did the bloc tutorial. We need more on that front. >> I plan to use it for some projects >> during the lectures I will give at Prague. >> BTW I would like to have a turtle for my new book. :) >> >> - Brick >> The text editor was a really important element to build widgets. >> The text editor model is basically the second iteration based on >> TxText attempt. >> It scales well. >> >> As soon as we start to have widgets we should do a Spec mapping >> and see how we can get rid of the middle man (the adapter should not >> be used at runtime). >> >> Bloc and Brick are not on the Pharo 70 roadmap because the process >> should be fixed before. >> But we would love to have bloc and brick as preview. >> >> Esteban is currently working with Ronnie for the SDL integration, >> headless image and others. >> >> Stef >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 5:51 PM, Torsten Bergmann <[hidden email]> wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> what is the current status of Bloc and Brick? >>> How likely is it that Bloc goes into Pharo 7? >>> >>> Anyone able to give a short update on current work >>> and plans? >>> >>> Thanks >>> T. >>> >> > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > www.feenk.com > > "We are all great at making mistakes." |
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Hi,
> On Sep 20, 2017, at 9:22 AM, Norbert Hartl <[hidden email]> wrote: > > > >> Am 19.09.2017 um 22:50 schrieb Tudor Girba <[hidden email]>: >> >> Hi, >> >> Thanks for the question :). >> >> Indeed, the summary of Stef is quite good. >> >> Here are some additions: >> - Indeed, Bloc gets stable. Recently, we learned that we can optimize the layouts even more and Alex Syrel will work on that in the next couple of weeks, but this will not impact users. > > can't this be done later? I would prefer that making Bloc and Brick usable is the first target. I can sympathize with that. We also want to get to a usable state as soon as possible. However, we have a different way of prioritizing and this might seem somewhat counter intuitive. I strongly believe that some things cannot be rushed and that continuously investing in the underlying infrastructure pays off in the mid-term. So, when we see an opportunity to rephrase our understanding we take it earlier rather than later. This is one of these cases. Cheers, Doru > Norbert >> - We have just finished an alpha version of the editor that is both moldable and scalable. It’s alpha because there are still things to fine tune in the area of selection, insertion and deletion. >> - Having an editor is significant step because it is the most expensive (and the riskiest) widget mechanism. >> - After the layouts and editor we will focus on the model for interaction and animation of widgets and play with various classes of applications. >> - In the meantime, Theo Mugnier worked with Alain Plantec and did a brilliant job at providing an initial version of a SVG import-export. There are still things to do, but this is really cool work. >> >> I prefer to not go into estimations because I prefer to allow for the space to build crazy things, but we will work intensively on Bloc and Brick over the coming months, likely well into next year. >> >> Cheers, >> Doru >> >> >> >>> On Sep 19, 2017, at 8:46 PM, Stephane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Torsten >>> >>> I will let Doru present it in more detail but I think that he is in vacation. >>> Now here is my take from the discussion I got at ESUG. >>> >>> - Bloc is getting stable and people should really start to use it. >>> This is why we did the bloc tutorial. We need more on that front. >>> I plan to use it for some projects >>> during the lectures I will give at Prague. >>> BTW I would like to have a turtle for my new book. :) >>> >>> - Brick >>> The text editor was a really important element to build widgets. >>> The text editor model is basically the second iteration based on >>> TxText attempt. >>> It scales well. >>> >>> As soon as we start to have widgets we should do a Spec mapping >>> and see how we can get rid of the middle man (the adapter should not >>> be used at runtime). >>> >>> Bloc and Brick are not on the Pharo 70 roadmap because the process >>> should be fixed before. >>> But we would love to have bloc and brick as preview. >>> >>> Esteban is currently working with Ronnie for the SDL integration, >>> headless image and others. >>> >>> Stef >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 5:51 PM, Torsten Bergmann <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> what is the current status of Bloc and Brick? >>>> How likely is it that Bloc goes into Pharo 7? >>>> >>>> Anyone able to give a short update on current work >>>> and plans? >>>> >>>> Thanks >>>> T. >>>> >>> >> >> -- >> www.tudorgirba.com >> www.feenk.com >> >> "We are all great at making mistakes." > -- www.tudorgirba.com www.feenk.com "Obvious things are difficult to teach." |
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> On 20 Sep 2017, at 10:12, Tudor Girba <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Hi, > >> On Sep 20, 2017, at 9:22 AM, Norbert Hartl <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> >> >>> Am 19.09.2017 um 22:50 schrieb Tudor Girba <[hidden email]>: >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> Thanks for the question :). >>> >>> Indeed, the summary of Stef is quite good. >>> >>> Here are some additions: >>> - Indeed, Bloc gets stable. Recently, we learned that we can optimize the layouts even more and Alex Syrel will work on that in the next couple of weeks, but this will not impact users. >> >> can't this be done later? I would prefer that making Bloc and Brick usable is the first target. > > I can sympathize with that. We also want to get to a usable state as soon as possible. > > However, we have a different way of prioritizing and this might seem somewhat counter intuitive. I strongly believe that some things cannot be rushed and that continuously investing in the underlying infrastructure pays off in the mid-term. So, when we see an opportunity to rephrase our understanding we take it earlier rather than later. This is one of these cases. > But it is clear (having spend 10 years in the Squeak community…) that there is a danger in that, too… will there ever be a point were you will *not* be able to do things better? Ah, I even gave a talk about that: https://www.slideshare.net/MarcusDenker/perfection-feedback-loops-or-why-worse-is-better-65540840 ;-) Marcus |
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Hi,
> On Sep 20, 2017, at 10:23 AM, Marcus Denker <[hidden email]> wrote: > >> >> On 20 Sep 2017, at 10:12, Tudor Girba <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >>> On Sep 20, 2017, at 9:22 AM, Norbert Hartl <[hidden email]> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> Am 19.09.2017 um 22:50 schrieb Tudor Girba <[hidden email]>: >>>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> Thanks for the question :). >>>> >>>> Indeed, the summary of Stef is quite good. >>>> >>>> Here are some additions: >>>> - Indeed, Bloc gets stable. Recently, we learned that we can optimize the layouts even more and Alex Syrel will work on that in the next couple of weeks, but this will not impact users. >>> >>> can't this be done later? I would prefer that making Bloc and Brick usable is the first target. >> >> I can sympathize with that. We also want to get to a usable state as soon as possible. >> >> However, we have a different way of prioritizing and this might seem somewhat counter intuitive. I strongly believe that some things cannot be rushed and that continuously investing in the underlying infrastructure pays off in the mid-term. So, when we see an opportunity to rephrase our understanding we take it earlier rather than later. This is one of these cases. >> > > But it is clear (having spend 10 years in the Squeak community…) that there is a danger in that, too… will there ever be a point were you will *not* > be able to do things better? > > Ah, I even gave a talk about that: > > https://www.slideshare.net/MarcusDenker/perfection-feedback-loops-or-why-worse-is-better-65540840 > > > ;-) I agree. However, I see differences: - We choose to invest our energy in things that have a concrete outlook, often using time boxes and guided through a lot of experimentation. - If you get the cost of experimentation lower, you can simply perform more experiments and this increases the chances of producing surprising results. - The output is tangible and is constant, which means that we do not get stuck in an endless loop. It might take longer than people expect, but on the other hand, the results are consistently surprising. - In the meantime, Bloc is usable since half a year (the tutorial from ESUG was also given at PharoDays and works out of the box). And perhaps another thing that is not so clear: Bloc is a team effort and we, at feenk, are part of that team effort. From feenk’s point of view, we see it as an investment and we commit to make Bloc a platform that others can use for the next 10 years. For example, Alex works exclusively on this. As we are a commercial entity, for us this is a business issue, not a hobby. This means that we have all incentives to finish things so that we can build what we actually want to build :). Doru > Marcus -- www.tudorgirba.com www.feenk.com “Live like you mean it." |
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Tudor Girba-2 wrote
> As we are a commercial entity, for us this is a business issue, not a > hobby. This means that we have all incentives to finish things so that we > can build what we actually want to build :). This is good to hear. I share Marcus' concern. After (almost? about?) 10 years in the Smalltalk community, my unbridled enthusiasm about new game-changing projects has mellowed to keep-working-as-usual-and-"we'll see". For every contributor like Sven, who has created and maintained multiple essential libraries over years, there seem to be 10 projects that fizzle out after an initial period of excitement and activity. Nearly all my revolutionary (in my head anyway ha ha) plans were thwarted early on. At first I blamed our spaghetti Morphic implementation which I found impossible to deal with once one wants to do anything uncommon. It's interesting to note that Morphic is itself the victim of unending experimentation without the promised final cleanup into a clean, understandable, usable, sane? form. After so many years have passed, however, I think the bigger barrier was the illusion that something better was "right around the corner". Instead of slogging through or cleaning Morphic myself, I put everything on hold until Morphic 3, SimpleMorphic, TxText (slightly different, but related), Bloc… It will be nice to finally have something real to play with! Maybe the time is now… ----- Cheers, Sean -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Developers-f1294837.html
Cheers,
Sean |
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Sean you should consider that TxText was important because it enabled
the new textEditor. Bloc is stabilising for real. I can tell you that it was not an easy decision to rewrite Bloc after Brescia. And it should get out. SimpleMorphic and Morphic 3 where not related to our effort. I really encourage people to build things with Bloc. The more we will do it the better. Stef On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 1:38 PM, Sean P. DeNigris <[hidden email]> wrote: > Tudor Girba-2 wrote >> As we are a commercial entity, for us this is a business issue, not a >> hobby. This means that we have all incentives to finish things so that we >> can build what we actually want to build :). > > This is good to hear. I share Marcus' concern. After (almost? about?) 10 > years in the Smalltalk community, my unbridled enthusiasm about new > game-changing projects has mellowed to keep-working-as-usual-and-"we'll > see". For every contributor like Sven, who has created and maintained > multiple essential libraries over years, there seem to be 10 projects that > fizzle out after an initial period of excitement and activity. Nearly all my > revolutionary (in my head anyway ha ha) plans were thwarted early on. At > first I blamed our spaghetti Morphic implementation which I found impossible > to deal with once one wants to do anything uncommon. It's interesting to > note that Morphic is itself the victim of unending experimentation without > the promised final cleanup into a clean, understandable, usable, sane? form. > After so many years have passed, however, I think the bigger barrier was the > illusion that something better was "right around the corner". Instead of > slogging through or cleaning Morphic myself, I put everything on hold until > Morphic 3, SimpleMorphic, TxText (slightly different, but related), Bloc… It > will be nice to finally have something real to play with! Maybe the time is > now… > > > > ----- > Cheers, > Sean > -- > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Developers-f1294837.html > |
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In reply to this post by Tudor Girba-2
Tudor Girba-2 wrote
> Bloc is usable since half a year (the tutorial from ESUG was also given at > PharoDays and works out of the box). [not-a-rant ;)] After spending a good part of the day playing with Bloc, I'm wondering whether I am approaching it wrong. When I hear "useable", I think useful in real life scenarios - maybe not necessarily production, but at least day-to-day personal/in-house use. With many failing examples, deprecations, and seemingly minimally working text support (I was playing with BlTextElement, not looking for a full editor), I didn't find this to be the case. Am I missing something? Was "useable" meant in the sense of "ready for experimentation and feedback"? I am not complaining at all. I just want to be clear on the status so I effectively manage my expectations and find the best way to help out. Thanks! [/not-a-rant ;)] ----- Cheers, Sean -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Developers-f1294837.html
Cheers,
Sean |
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I agree with Markus on that one , I am really a “release first update later” kind of guy. Which of course means also that I am against the idea of having only 1 release per year for Pharo. The why has been explained in myriads of online blog posts because I am far from the only one to believe in this. This why I never stuck with the stable release , I never saw any use for me or anyone else. Quite the contrary I think it hurts the development process by delaying bug reports.
On Mon, 23 Oct 2017 at 05:27, Sean P. DeNigris <[hidden email]> wrote: Tudor Girba-2 wrote |
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In reply to this post by Sean P. DeNigris
Hi Sean,
Bloc can be used for constructing element-based scenes. There is no built-in model for widgets yet. We use it in the new generation of the Glamorous Toolkit, and right now we have three such "real life scenarios” that you can play with: - Transcript - Documenter - Mondrian You can find more details here: https://github.com/feenkcom/gtoolkit Cheers, Doru > On Oct 23, 2017, at 4:27 AM, Sean P. DeNigris <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Tudor Girba-2 wrote >> Bloc is usable since half a year (the tutorial from ESUG was also given at >> PharoDays and works out of the box). > > [not-a-rant ;)] > After spending a good part of the day playing with Bloc, I'm wondering > whether I am approaching it wrong. When I hear "useable", I think useful in > real life scenarios - maybe not necessarily production, but at least > day-to-day personal/in-house use. With many failing examples, deprecations, > and seemingly minimally working text support (I was playing with > BlTextElement, not looking for a full editor), I didn't find this to be the > case. Am I missing something? Was "useable" meant in the sense of "ready for > experimentation and feedback"? I am not complaining at all. I just want to > be clear on the status so I effectively manage my expectations and find the > best way to help out. Thanks! > [/not-a-rant ;)] > > > > ----- > Cheers, > Sean > -- > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Developers-f1294837.html > -- www.tudorgirba.com www.feenk.com "Problem solving should be focused on describing the problem in a way that makes the solution obvious." |
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Tudor Girba-2 wrote
> right now we have three such "real life scenarios” that you can play with: Are these safe to load in a working image? IOW could one switch back and forth between the standard and experimental toolset? ----- Cheers, Sean -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Developers-f1294837.html
Cheers,
Sean |
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In reply to this post by Tudor Girba-2
Tudor Girba-2 wrote
> You can find more details here: > https://github.com/feenkcom/gtoolkit Installed per instructions there. [World Menu]->[Moldable Editor]->[3. Pillar Documenter]->[Do It and Go] -> [Click "Pillar" tab]->"FileDoesNotExist: File @ ~/Dynabook/Working Images/GT Preview/pharo-local/iceberg/feenkcom/gtoolkit/doc/mondrian/index.pillar" ----- Cheers, Sean -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Developers-f1294837.html
Cheers,
Sean |
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Thanks. That menu is experimental, and will be removed.
In the meantime, the file is in:
./pharo-local/iceberg/feenkcom/gtoolkit-visualizer/doc/mondrian/index.pillar  Cheers, Doru On Oct 24, 2017, at 3:57 AM, Sean P. DeNigris <[hidden email]> wrote: |
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In reply to this post by Sean P. DeNigris
> On Oct 24, 2017, at 2:09 AM, Sean P. DeNigris <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Tudor Girba-2 wrote >> right now we have three such "real life scenarios” that you can play with: > > Are these safe to load in a working image? IOW could one switch back and > forth between the standard and experimental toolset? > I work with them loaded when in a production image. Cheers, Doru > > ----- > Cheers, > Sean > -- > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Developers-f1294837.html > -- www.tudorgirba.com www.feenk.com "In a world where everything is moving ever faster, one might have better chances to win by moving slower." |
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In reply to this post by Tudor Girba-2
Tudor Girba-2 wrote
> In the meantime, the file is in: > ./pharo-local/iceberg/feenkcom/gtoolkit-visualizer/doc/mondrian/index.pillar I don't seem to even have ./pharo-local/iceberg! ----- Cheers, Sean -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Developers-f1294837.html
Cheers,
Sean |
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What Pharo are you using and how did you load the code?
Doru > On Oct 24, 2017, at 3:49 PM, Sean P. DeNigris <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Tudor Girba-2 wrote >> In the meantime, the file is in: >> ./pharo-local/iceberg/feenkcom/gtoolkit-visualizer/doc/mondrian/index.pillar > > I don't seem to even have ./pharo-local/iceberg! > > > > ----- > Cheers, > Sean > -- > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Developers-f1294837.html > -- www.tudorgirba.com www.feenk.com "Don't give to get. Just give." |
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Pharo #60513 via Launcher. Loaded GT as per GH readme:
Iceberg enableMetacelloIntegration: true. Metacello new baseline: 'GToolkit'; repository: 'github://feenkcom/gtoolkit/src'; load. ----- Cheers, Sean -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Developers-f1294837.html
Cheers,
Sean |
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Then you should have a "pharo-local/iceberg/feenkcom” folder somewhere because this is where iceberg puts the files. Could you please check.
Doru > On Oct 24, 2017, at 8:06 PM, Sean P. DeNigris <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Pharo #60513 via Launcher. Loaded GT as per GH readme: > Iceberg enableMetacelloIntegration: true. > Metacello new > baseline: 'GToolkit'; > repository: 'github://feenkcom/gtoolkit/src'; > load. > > > > > ----- > Cheers, > Sean > -- > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Developers-f1294837.html > -- www.tudorgirba.com www.feenk.com "Yesterday is a fact. Tomorrow is a possibility. Today is a challenge." |
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