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Another Dave

Bugging out of Squeak

Let's say you're totally lost, and want to exit Squeak without saving anything from the mess you've just made.

Wouldn't you click World > quit, then answer 'No' to 'Save changes before quitting'?

My Squeak 3.9g still saves everything for next session.

Michael Haupt-3

Re: Bugging out of Squeak

Hi,

On 11/12/06, Another Dave <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Let's say you're totally lost, and want to exit Squeak without saving
> anything from the mess you've just made.
>
> Wouldn't you click World > quit, then answer 'No' to 'Save changes before
> quitting'?
>
> My Squeak 3.9g still saves everything for next session.

strange. Mine doesn't. I just tried that with a 3.9g-7061 image (fresh
from the server).

Are you absolutely sure you haven't accidentally, in the last second,
hit one of the wrong pixels, i.e., one belonging to "yes"?

Best,

Michael
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Another Dave

Re: Bugging out of Squeak

It's been happening pretty consistently with my 3.9g-7058-061020.

But I guess this is a minor aggravation that I should deal with by upgrading (which seems to have its own problems) or switching to a different image.

lanas

Re: Bugging out of Squeak

In reply to this post by Michael Haupt-3

Le Dimanche 12 Novembre 2006 13:00, Michael Haupt a écrit :

> On 11/12/06, Another Dave <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Let's say you're totally lost, and want to exit Squeak without saving
> > anything from the mess you've just made.

> Are you absolutely sure you haven't accidentally, in the last second,
> hit one of the wrong pixels, i.e., one belonging to "yes"?

There's a UI loop in there which is nevertheless not very graceful I think.

The first option in this sequence is the user clicking the choice:

'Quit without saving the image' (or somesuch, I do not want to change language
just to get the right string that is displayed)

And then, very surprisingly, after the user has made this choice, another
choice pops up that asks: 'Save image ? yes/no/cancel" (idem).

I find this to be squarly not straight, so to speak. It is confusing for any
user to be asked about saving the image when the user has already expressed
the will of NOT saving the image. Either remove this option in the first
place, or remove the additional choice of saving the image.

My two cents.

Cheers,
Al
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Klaus D. Witzel

Re: Bugging out of Squeak

Hi lanas,

there are 4 possibilities which come to my mind:

1 - you're using an image which we don't know, alternately: I can see a
message somiliar to your's only if on windows and hit alt-f4.

2 - you're indeed on windows doing alt-f4 then there is a bug

3 - the message says "Save changes before quitting?" then this is so
because you selected plain "Quit" from the World menu. In case you did the
latter, perhaps your mouse thinks it clicks 1-2 pixels off and the menu is
not what you expected?

4 - I cannot reproduce the message you cite 'Quit without saving the
image', can you tell us precisely where and what you click and what kind
of widget is then talking to you.

/Klaus

On Wed, 15 Nov 2006 13:32:41 +0100, lanas wrote:

> Le Dimanche 12 Novembre 2006 13:00, Michael Haupt a écrit :
>
>> On 11/12/06, Another Dave <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > Let's say you're totally lost, and want to exit Squeak without saving
>> > anything from the mess you've just made.
>
>> Are you absolutely sure you haven't accidentally, in the last second,
>> hit one of the wrong pixels, i.e., one belonging to "yes"?
>
> There's a UI loop in there which is nevertheless not very graceful I
> think.
>
> The first option in this sequence is the user clicking the choice:
>
> 'Quit without saving the image' (or somesuch, I do not want to change
> language
> just to get the right string that is displayed)
>
> And then, very surprisingly, after the user has made this choice, another
> choice pops up that asks: 'Save image ? yes/no/cancel" (idem).
>
> I find this to be squarly not straight, so to speak. It is confusing
> for any
> user to be asked about saving the image when the user has already
> expressed
> the will of NOT saving the image. Either remove this option in the first
> place, or remove the additional choice of saving the image.
>
> My two cents.
>
> Cheers,
> Al

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Ralph Johnson

Re: Re: Bugging out of Squeak

> 4 - I cannot reproduce the message you cite 'Quit without saving the
> image', can you tell us precisely where and what you click and what kind
> of widget is then talking to you.

In the final 3.9 image, at the bottom of the world menu, there is a
"Save and quit" option followed by a "Quit" option. The "quit" option
does what he says, it asks if you want to save before you quit, quit
without saving, or cancel. When you see "save and quit" followed by
"quit", it is confusing to have "quit" ask you if you want to save.

Squeak has been this way for a long time.

-Ralph
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Another Dave

Re: Re: Bugging out of Squeak

Ralph Johnson wrote

In the final 3.9 image, at the bottom of the world menu, there is a
"Save and quit" option followed by a "Quit" option. The "quit" option
does what he says, it asks if you want to save before you quit, quit
without saving, or cancel. When you see "save and quit" followed by
"quit", it is confusing to have "quit" ask you if you want to save.

Squeak has been this way for a long time.

-Ralph

Right. I was using this as a sort of "clear all, and restart from the beginning" command, to clean my newbie errors out the system, and I did choose "No" to "Save changes before quitting". That's why I was frustrated to find the image still there when I reloaded Squeak. This happened several times, so I made the post.

Today, I can't duplicate the problem. Was it my system? Was it me? I don't know. I will watch for it happening again, and if it does I'll try to gather as much information as I can before posting.

Klaus D. Witzel

Re: Bugging out of Squeak

In reply to this post by Ralph Johnson

IC.

But then he is correct, the text *must* include three dots "Quit ..."
because there is another step in that particular dialog.

Good find.

Release-team, please add the three dots to the world menu, thank you.

/Klaus

On Wed, 15 Nov 2006 15:21:19 +0100, Ralph Johnson wrote:

>> 4 - I cannot reproduce the message you cite 'Quit without saving the
>> image', can you tell us precisely where and what you click and what kind
>> of widget is then talking to you.
>
> In the final 3.9 image, at the bottom of the world menu, there is a
> "Save and quit" option followed by a "Quit" option. The "quit" option
> does what he says, it asks if you want to save before you quit, quit
> without saving, or cancel. When you see "save and quit" followed by
> "quit", it is confusing to have "quit" ask you if you want to save.
>
> Squeak has been this way for a long time.
>
> -Ralph

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Herbert König

Re[2]: Re: Bugging out of Squeak

In reply to this post by Another Dave

Hello Dave,

AD> Right. I was using this as a sort of "clear all, and restart from the
AD> beginning" command, to clean my newbie errors out the system, and I did

because I still have this problem (I have it in other programs too) I
close squeak by closing the squeak window. This only can abort quitting
but I have no chance to save the image when I want to quit.

This is on Win but I'm sure it's valid for Linux and Mac too.

regards,

Herbert mailto:[hidden email]

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Klaus D. Witzel

Re: Bugging out of Squeak

In reply to this post by Klaus D. Witzel

Hi Ken,

NP, will forward to the beginners list (hrm, how goes that saying:
everybody can do this, isn't it so :)

> Also, do you really expect anyone to keep up with this?

Well, if I only could have just a simple reaction on every direct question
to you, that would be great ;-)

-----------

You should know by now that I put all the bugs which I *myself* find
[reproducable] onto mantis.

But I have no intention to do that for other people's findings.

/Klaus

Beginners, please read Ken's response below on how to add a bug report,
then add a bug report, thank you.

On Wed, 15 Nov 2006 18:15:57 +0100, Ken you wrote:

> On Wed, 2006-11-15 at 17:56 +0100, Klaus D. Witzel wrote:
>> IC.
>>
>> But then he is correct, the text *must* include three dots "Quit ..."
>> because there is another step in that particular dialog.
>>
>> Good find.
>>
>> Release-team, please add the three dots to the world menu, thank you.
>>
>> /Klaus
>
> Klaus,
>
> I don't mean to pick on you specifically, but this is a very handy
> example. This is a very small thing but it is just the sort of thing
> which can (with multiple instances) lead to release team burn out.
> Also, do you really expect anyone to keep up with this?
>
> Please:
>
> 1. Take the time to create a patch.
>
> 2. Add a report to the bug system: http://bugs.impara.de/
>
> Thank you,
>
> Ken
>
> P.S. In my opinion having the issue on Mantis provides the additional
> benefit that if there is some disagreement about the best solution to
> the issue it provides a forum in which to gather the discussion.
>
>> On Wed, 15 Nov 2006 15:21:19 +0100, Ralph Johnson wrote:
>>
>> >> 4 - I cannot reproduce the message you cite 'Quit without saving the
>> >> image', can you tell us precisely where and what you click and what
>> kind
>> >> of widget is then talking to you.
>> >
>> > In the final 3.9 image, at the bottom of the world menu, there is a
>> > "Save and quit" option followed by a "Quit" option. The "quit" option
>> > does what he says, it asks if you want to save before you quit, quit
>> > without saving, or cancel. When you see "save and quit" followed by
>> > "quit", it is confusing to have "quit" ask you if you want to save.
>> >
>> > Squeak has been this way for a long time.
>> >
>> > -Ralph
>

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Ken Causey-3

Reporting bugs on Mantis (was Bugging out of Squeak)

On Wed, 2006-11-15 at 18:53 +0100, Klaus D. Witzel wrote:
> Hi Ken,

Hi! :)

> NP, will forward to the beginners list (hrm, how goes that saying:
> everybody can do this, isn't it so :)
>
> > Also, do you really expect anyone to keep up with this?
>
> Well, if I only could have just a simple reaction on every direct question
> to you, that would be great ;-)

Feel free to point out when any future responses from me are less clear.

> -----------
>
> You should know by now that I put all the bugs which I *myself* find
> [reproducable] onto mantis.

Absolutely, and I applaud your contributions, you are certainly one of
the more active mantis report/fix contributors lately.

> But I have no intention to do that for other people's findings.

And that's fine. In fact I guess the main point of my previous reply
was that all of us should avoid presuming someone else has the time to
do something, and that goes for you as well.

> /Klaus
>
> Beginners, please read Ken's response below on how to add a bug report,
> then add a bug report, thank you.

Repeating URL:

http://bugs.impara.de/

There is an intro document on reporting issues under the project
documentation. Right now even though it is an HTML file it offers to
save it rather than simply show it like it has in the past. I've asked
for some assistance on this and maybe everyone can manage for the time
being.

Ken

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lanas

Re: Re: Bugging out of Squeak

In reply to this post by Klaus D. Witzel

On Wed, 15 Nov 2006 13:47:27 +0100
"Klaus D. Witzel" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hallo Klaus,

> there are 4 possibilities which come to my mind:

> 1
> 2
> 3

None of the above.

> 4 - I cannot reproduce the message you cite 'Quit without saving the
> image', can you tell us precisely where and what you click and what
> kind of widget is then talking to you.

Sehr einfach. So geht's:

On the desktop menu the last entry says:

"Quitter sans enregistrer l'image"

And when you click on that, it asks you if you want to save the image.
Try it, you'll see the same.

I've tried with other language settings, and it seens French is quite
unique in that matter !

Could someone change that to only "Quitter" and add the three dots like
it was suggested ? OR... Make it really quit without saving the image
since that's the option right above (I think that'd be the "bäst")

BTW, Polish sieht ganz wie Deutsch aus ! ;-)

And Czech looks a lot like English ! ;-)

Alles gut,
Al
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Jerome Peace

Re: Bugging out of Squeak

In reply to this post by Another Dave

Hi lanas,

You have a found a good issue worthy of being fixed.

The best place for this info would be to start a
Mantis report. (You can get a mantis acct freely and
easily).

A good place to start is:

http://bugs.impara.de/my_view_page.php

Mantis provides a patient persistent way to focus on
an issue.
I use it to accumulate data on a problem until a
solution can be found.
It provides a place to alert the community to a
problem;
-accumulate facts and clues from the analysis;
-publish preposed solutions and get feedback;
-get solutions harvested and included into the main
stream.

Yours in service, --Jerome Peace

>[Newbies] Re: Bugging out of Squeak
>lanas lanas at securenet.net
>Wed Nov 15 22:59:17 UTC 2006 wrote:
>
>
<...>
>Sehr einfach. So geht's:
>
>On the desktop menu the last entry says:
>
>"Quitter sans enregistrer l'image"
>
>And when you click on that, it asks you if you want
to save the image.
>Try it, you'll see the same.
>
>I've tried with other language settings, and it seens
French is quite
>unique in that matter !
>
>Could someone change that to only "Quitter" and add
the three dots like
>it was suggested ? OR... Make it really quit without
saving the image
>since that's the option right above (I think that'd
be the "bäst")
>
>BTW, Polish sieht ganz wie Deutsch aus ! ;-)
>
>And Czech looks a lot like English ! ;-)
>
>Alles gut,
>Al
>

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tblanchard

Re: Re: Bugging out of Squeak

In reply to this post by Ralph Johnson

FWIW, this option has saved my bacon a number of times. All
destructive operations should have a confirm - quitting without
saving is one of those things.

-Todd Blanchard

On Nov 15, 2006, at 6:21 AM, Ralph Johnson wrote:

>> 4 - I cannot reproduce the message you cite 'Quit without saving the
>> image', can you tell us precisely where and what you click and
>> what kind
>> of widget is then talking to you.
>
> In the final 3.9 image, at the bottom of the world menu, there is a
> "Save and quit" option followed by a "Quit" option. The "quit" option
> does what he says, it asks if you want to save before you quit, quit
> without saving, or cancel. When you see "save and quit" followed by
> "quit", it is confusing to have "quit" ask you if you want to save.
>
> Squeak has been this way for a long time.
>
> -Ralph
> _______________________________________________
> Beginners mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners

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Bert Freudenberg

Re: Re: Bugging out of Squeak

+20

- Bert -

On Nov 17, 2006, at 1:28 , Todd Blanchard wrote:

> FWIW, this option has saved my bacon a number of times. All
> destructive operations should have a confirm - quitting without
> saving is one of those things.
>
> -Todd Blanchard
>
> On Nov 15, 2006, at 6:21 AM, Ralph Johnson wrote:
>
>>> 4 - I cannot reproduce the message you cite 'Quit without saving the
>>> image', can you tell us precisely where and what you click and
>>> what kind
>>> of widget is then talking to you.
>>
>> In the final 3.9 image, at the bottom of the world menu, there is a
>> "Save and quit" option followed by a "Quit" option. The "quit"
>> option
>> does what he says, it asks if you want to save before you quit, quit
>> without saving, or cancel. When you see "save and quit" followed by
>> "quit", it is confusing to have "quit" ask you if you want to save.
>>
>> Squeak has been this way for a long time.
>>
>> -Ralph
>> _______________________________________________
>> Beginners mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
>
> _______________________________________________
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lanas

Re: Re: Bugging out of Squeak

In reply to this post by tblanchard

Le Jeudi 16 Novembre 2006 19:28, Todd Blanchard a écrit :
> FWIW, this option has saved my bacon a number of times. All
> destructive operations should have a confirm - quitting without
> saving is one of those things.

Not when the option itself is named "Quit without saving", I find.

Al
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Ralph Johnson

Re: Re: Re: Bugging out of Squeak

The option should not be called "Quit without saving", in any language,
unless that is what it does.

If there is a command "Save and quit" followed by "Quit", then the
confirmation for "Quit" should be something like
"Are you sure you want to quit? Quit / Cancel"
instead of the confusing "Save changes before quiting? yes/no/cancel".

Or, there should just be a single "quit" command that gives the three options.
But that will make some people nervous the first time, because they won't
be sure that saving is an option. Though if the command before "quit"
is "save",
a nervous person will first save and then quit, and discover when they quit that
they could have just used the quit command and saved as they were quiting.

I've taught Smalltalk to close to a thousand people, so I have had a lot of
experience watching newcomers get confused by little things. There is no
reason they should get confused about how to quit.

-Ralph
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Bert Freudenberg

Re: Re: Bugging out of Squeak

In reply to this post by lanas

On Nov 17, 2006, at 13:18 , lanas wrote:

> Le Jeudi 16 Novembre 2006 19:28, Todd Blanchard a écrit :
>> FWIW, this option has saved my bacon a number of times. All
>> destructive operations should have a confirm - quitting without
>> saving is one of those things.
>
> Not when the option itself is named "Quit without saving", I find.

Well the rename it. It's too easy to accidentally hit this item when
you really wanted the other.

- Bert -

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tblanchard

Re: Re: Bugging out of Squeak

In reply to this post by Ralph Johnson

What can I tell you? Quitting Smalltalk is hard. :-)

On Nov 17, 2006, at 5:56 AM, Ralph Johnson wrote:

> The option should not be called "Quit without saving", in any
> language,
> unless that is what it does.
>
> If there is a command "Save and quit" followed by "Quit", then the
> confirmation for "Quit" should be something like
> "Are you sure you want to quit? Quit / Cancel"
> instead of the confusing "Save changes before quiting? yes/no/cancel".
>
> Or, there should just be a single "quit" command that gives the
> three options.
> But that will make some people nervous the first time, because they
> won't
> be sure that saving is an option. Though if the command before "quit"
> is "save",
> a nervous person will first save and then quit, and discover when
> they quit that
> they could have just used the quit command and saved as they were
> quiting.
>
> I've taught Smalltalk to close to a thousand people, so I have had
> a lot of
> experience watching newcomers get confused by little things. There
> is no
> reason they should get confused about how to quit.
>
> -Ralph
> _______________________________________________
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