Call For *Your* Opinion

Dear Squeakizen,

I would like to call for your opinion(s) in regard to contributions. I
am a firm believer in surveying the community in order to improve our
sense of direction, our culture, and bonding as a community.

1. What are your biggest hurdles preventing you from contributing to Squeak?

2. What would it take for you to contribute more?

3. What are your expectations in regard to contributions?

4. What are the reasons behind the low level of contributions from
other community members, according to you?

5. What would you improve in order to increase the number of
contributions and the number of contributors?

6. How would you rate your sense of social identification to the
Squeak community, on a scale from 1 to 10. (1 is the lowest, 10 the
highest)

7. What is your rating based on?

8. Anything else?


Best regards,
Ian.

Post scriptum:

For the record, Squeak Oversight Board should conduct such surveys in
the future. I trust the board to understand the community or otherwise
take actions in order to do so. However, I'd like your help to prove
the board that this is the right way to go and to be heard. So,
please, everybody, contribute with your opinion (even if you are a
timid person).

--
http://mecenia.blogspot.com/

Ian Trudel wrote:
> Dear Squeakizen,
>
> I would like to call for your opinion(s) in regard to contributions. I
> am a firm believer in surveying the community in order to improve our
> sense of direction, our culture, and bonding as a community.
>
> 1. What are your biggest hurdles preventing you from contributing to Squeak?

My lack of knowledge of the system.

> 2. What would it take for you to contribute more?

I find contributing really easy: find a bug, delve into the code around
the bug, learn.

> 3. What are your expectations in regard to contributions?

* I expect it to be easy to be able to submit contributions. (Push your
MCZ to Inbox. Done!)
* For bugfixes, assuming a well-thought-out and minimal change I expect
a reasonably quick response.
* I expect the maintainers to quickly reject code that isn't
well-thought-out, doesn't have a decent suite of tests, or doesn't in
some other way meet the required standards.

Having said that, we also have to bear in mind that the maintainers are
few in number, and are very kindly volunteering their time in acting as
gatekeepers. Hence my emphasis on the duty of the submitter to make the
maintainers' job as easy as possible.

> 4. What are the reasons behind the low level of contributions from
> other community members, according to you?

I suspect lots of people just don't feel much pain in this regard.
There's no real way to tell the difference between apathy, contentment
with the status quo, and someone not able to contribute, without someone
actually saying what _their_ problem is.

> 5. What would you improve in order to increase the number of
> contributions and the number of contributors?

* Continue splitting the image into packages.
* Keep public and well-known lists of bugs.

Which is pretty much how things work right now.

> 6. How would you rate your sense of social identification to the
> Squeak community, on a scale from 1 to 10. (1 is the lowest, 10 the
> highest)

8

> 7. What is your rating based on?

I love working Squeak. I'd love to be paid to work in it. At the same
time, I also happen to like other languages and communities, so I'm not
putting "10" down.

I'm sure there will be those replying who will point at their own social
identity knobs and explain how their's goes to 11!

> 8. Anything else?

Not really.

frank

> 1. What are your biggest hurdles preventing you from contributing to Squeak?

1) High traffic in squeak-dev list, meaning many messages are not read
properly. Of course I could use Mantis I guess :)

2) Tedious discussions and painful nitpicking. I hate to defend my
ideas, but find myself rather often cornered into having to do so. This
definitely prevents me from offering much more bug fixes and proposals
than I currently do.

> 2. What would it take for you to contribute more?

More attention from others. I could say: take this image I just
uploaded, see all the fixes and improvements that are in, vote for
inclusion and I submit the corresponding code. I won't do that now
because I know nobody is ever going to actually have a look. Time is
short for many it seems.

> 3. What are your expectations in regard to contributions?

see above

> 4. What are the reasons behind the low level of contributions from
> other community members, according to you?

The vocal people on squeak-dev are very intimidating. I guess they don't
realize that.

> 5. What would you improve in order to increase the number of
> contributions and the number of contributors?

Dunno.

> 6. How would you rate your sense of social identification to the
> Squeak community, on a scale from 1 to 10. (1 is the lowest, 10 the
> highest)

Although I have been around for nearly 10 years, I don't feel very much
part of the community, but actually I don't think there is such thing as
a Squeak community. Many people, many different interests.

> 7. What is your rating based on?

I'm not into ratings.

> 8. Anything else?

Good that you asked these questions. It's useful.



Stef

On 4/19/10 8:46 AM, "Stéphane Rollandin" <[hidden email]> wrote:
A big +1 to all.

A million green test means nothing. You must USE the real thing for discover
the ugly true

The present release is full of bugs, as seems some do death threats if not
going public.

I know compatibility is a coin of two faces, sometimes help and sometimes
not, but zero discuss of this important subject.

It's true we have a great team of hard workers but zero coordination of
they, in the long run this is BAD

Edgar in his  Advocatus Diaboli rol again :=)

I'd like to establish few more ground rules in order to make sure
everybody is properly heard. It is important to stick to the format of
the survey because I am going to compile your answers in a
comprehensive format for the board. This is a way to ensure they will
hear you.

This thread is also not a moment to challenge people's opinion. Some
people may not be willing to openly give their opinion if they know
they're going to be challenged. Please, be respectful of that. It is
not a good time to +1 or -1 opinions. I do not mean to offend you
Edgar, it's just ground rules to make sure everybody gets his or her
chance.

Moreover, I will be closely following this thread and read EVERY
message but I will not comment (or as little as possible) because it
could alienate your opinion. What I am saying is that it is more
important that you share your true opinion, let it be not so
politically correct, than anything else. There are things you'd like
to see more in the community, tell us; there are things you hate in
our community, tell us.

Thanks,
Ian.

--
http://mecenia.blogspot.com/

On 4/19/10 9:43 AM, "Ian Trudel" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Edgar, it's just ground rules to make sure everybody gets his or her
> chance.


Don't read any you don't like.
I said any I like as a free man.
Tired of try Squeak improves, best I do not waste my time with people who
take a Blue Pill with breakfast so they happy continue his dream of all is
perfect.

Edgar

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Am 19.04.2010 12:49, schrieb Ian Trudel:
> Dear Squeakizen,
>
> I would like to call for your opinion(s) in regard to contributions. I
> am a firm believer in surveying the community in order to improve our
> sense of direction, our culture, and bonding as a community.
>
> 1. What are your biggest hurdles preventing you from contributing to Squeak?
>

 - personal reasons: I need more time to get my ideas into the keyboard :)
 - Squeak is a huge system. I have the feeling to dive deeper into
Squeak before I should start to commit. That's why I haven't contributed
to Squeak trunk but to different Squeak related projects like phidgetLab.

> 2. What would it take for you to contribute more?
>

Maybe we need an inbox for every package/part of the system (monticello,
morphic, ..).
To make this fun (and not overhead) we might need better packet/project
managing (project = a set of source code packages, dedicated bug
tracker, inbox-style contributions possible, ..)
This may lead to better modularisation and therefore easier modification
of parts of squeak.

Well.. this needs some more thought though.

> 3. What are your expectations in regard to contributions?
>

 - get my code discussed; get feedback and learn from the discussion
 - I can sleep well, because I've done something which goes live in squeak

> 4. What are the reasons behind the low level of contributions from
> other community members, according to you?
>

I don't feel confident on answering this, but I'll try:
Maybe its kind of a cost-benefit-ratio where the costs are too high. You
contribute to Squeak, because you want your App to run on it. To run
your App you need several things: development tools, interaction with
the non-squeak world (out-of-the-box FFI (callbacks)), speed, flexible
workflow support (project management I mentioned above), a common api
with other smalltalks, documentation, ...


> 5. What would you improve in order to increase the number of
> contributions and the number of contributors?
>

Enhance the 'things you need to get your app work' I mentioned above. I
remeber implementing phidgetLab - especially the eToys integration and
the c-library/FFI part - was not always as straight forward as I thought
it should be.

> 6. How would you rate your sense of social identification to the
> Squeak community, on a scale from 1 to 10. (1 is the lowest, 10 the
> highest)
>

6

> 7. What is your rating based on?
>

 - I'm not active on squeak-dev
 + I implemented phidgetLab (and some other minor things), went to ESUG
last summer, have a lot of discussion here at university about
smalltalk/squeak, offer some workshops/presentations about eToys/Squeak

> 8. Anything else?
>

I officially refer to [smalltalk/squeak] as my favourite programming
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On 19.04.2010, at 14:56, Edgar J. De Cleene wrote:
>
> On 4/19/10 9:43 AM, "Ian Trudel" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Edgar, it's just ground rules to make sure everybody gets his or her
>> chance.
>
>
> Don't read any you don't like.
> I said any I like as a free man.

Actually, Ian is trying to find out what exactly would make contributors more happy. It's awesome he's trying to moderate the discussion to a useful format.

> Tired of try Squeak improves, best I do not waste my time with people who
> take a Blue Pill with breakfast so they happy continue his dream of all is
> perfect.
>
> Edgar

Shipping a release is not saying "all is perfect". We're very aware of that. But if we waited until "all is perfect" we would *never* have a release.

And since you are worried about backwards compatibility in particular: I just forwarded the notes from last week's Etoys developer chat. There we discussed an idea about how to load old projects into new Squeak versions. How does that sound?

- Bert -

Yes, and I do not think that the "pink plane" is out. See for example

http://www.hpi.uni-potsdam.de/hirschfeld/projects/phidgetlab/

which was just mentioned in the other thread.

Edgar, please visit the web site.

Hannes



On 4/19/10, Bert Freudenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ian Trudel-2 wrote

1. What are your biggest hurdles preventing you from contributing to Squeak?

* Developer tools: I don't know how to get my development tools installed.  I tried for a while yesterday to install the common ones from Pharo to no avail.  If I had OCompletion, Refactoring browser, and Omnibrowser, and 02 for traits, I would be much happier.
* Package installation in general - I have no idea how to get packages (or even what most of them do).  There's squeaksource, personal squeaksources (e.g. lukas), Monticello, Metacello, Gopher...  And very little package documentation.  
  - For example, coming from Ruby and Rspec, it hurts me to use the word "test" ;-), so I wanted to install SSpec.  There are two repositories on squeaksource - Sspec and Testing - which have a bunch of packages.  Some of them are SUnit-related.  I don't know which packages to install from which URL.  Given that they are a year old, I have no idea if the SUnit parts are compatible with current Squeak.  So I tried all different combinations and all resulted in many failed tests in SUnit.  Eventually, I ran the tests from the O2 browser in Pharo and found out the SSpec itself is in pretty good shape with most unit tests passing, just not from SUnit!  There's a few hours that I could have spent contributing down the drain.
  - Is Metacello for Squeak or just Pharo?  Are the configurations there guaranteed to be the latest?

Ian Trudel-2 wrote

2. What would it take for you to contribute more?

* An easy way to setup the common tools/packages - like in Pharo's welcome window, there's executable gopher statements to get the most common outside tools.
* A central place where we can keep track of which packages are working, or what it would take to get them working.  I'm sure we're all repeating the same work individually.

Ian Trudel-2 wrote

3. What are your expectations in regard to contributions?

None.  I'm happy to do anything I can because I think that the corporate MS/Apple machine we have is garbage/unworkable, and I will do what it takes to bring the experience of open personal computing to everyone.  My life as it pertains to computers is dedicated to fulfilling on the dynabook vision - if my little nephew or grandma can't figure out how to do it (while allowing unlimited customization for power-users), throw the whole thing in the garbage and start over.

Ian Trudel-2 wrote

4. What are the reasons behind the low level of contributions from
other community members, according to you?

I've only been around a short while, but I have sensed resignation:
  - that change is too slow / never going to happen
  - that the masses are too stupid to ever get what we're doing
  - that new people have enough knowledge to contribute anything

Ian Trudel-2 wrote

5. What would you improve in order to increase the number of
contributions and the number of contributors?

* Give people a clear picture of how.  Two great examples:
  - http://pharocasts.blogspot.com/2010/03/how-to-contribute-to-pharo.html
  - http://book.pharo-project.org/book/
* Have the tools and packages be easily accessible, or at least crystal-clear what does/doesn't/can't work in each version of the image.

Ian Trudel-2 wrote

6. How would you rate your sense of social identification to the
Squeak community, on a scale from 1 to 10. (1 is the lowest, 10 the
highest)

10 in passion and vision, but just getting to know people.

Ian Trudel-2 wrote

7. What is your rating based on?

Being driven and aligned, but new to it all.

Ian Trudel-2 wrote

8. Anything else?

Thank you for setting this up.

Sean DeNigris

"Art is never finished, only abandoned." -- DaVinci

Em 19-04-2010 07:49, Ian Trudel escreveu:

Dear Squeakizen,

I would like to call for your opinion(s) in regard to contributions. I
am a firm believer in surveying the community in order to improve our
sense of direction, our culture, and bonding as a community.

1. What are your biggest hurdles preventing you from contributing to Squeak?
  

1. Time
2. Lack of $$$ (corollary of 1)
3. Kind of contract with my bosses (NDAs, intellectual property, etc)
4. Guess there are brighter people working with squeak :-)
   

2. What would it take for you to contribute more?
  

1. More free time (higher dedication)
   
2. Less financial constraints (corollary of 1)
   
3. Wiser bosses, less greedy/paranoid ones...
   
4. Having more talent :-)
   

3. What are your expectations in regard to contributions?
  

• They must be significative (meaning, bring new things & avoid duplicating things)
• They must be compatible (meaning, they must work with previous stuff & not create problems to be integrated in future stuff)
• They must be documented (meaning... well... you know)
• They must be supported by more than a single human being... (orphaned packages suck)
  

4. What are the reasons behind the low level of contributions from
other community members, according to you?
  

Interesting enough, I see that most contributors are senior. I think it would be good if community could stimulate younger people to contribute to squeak.

Since most contributors are senior, they usually have the same budget/time/professional restrictions/ constraints avoiding them to contribute more.

5. What would you improve in order to increase the number of
contributions and the number of contributors?

  

1. Avoid discussions based in vanity (most of all), greed, anger... this effectively sends people out of community
2. Attract students (undergraduate, MSc, PhD) to participate, attract professors who have courses based on squeak to stimulate their students in participating as contributors
   

6. How would you rate your sense of social identification to the
Squeak community, on a scale from 1 to 10. (1 is the lowest, 10 the
highest)
  

• 8,5
  

7. What is your rating based on?
  

• Identification with objectives of community, most of all issuing a release that's stable, usable, that can evolve without back steps. Also a release that prepares community to deal with long wanted enhancements (multiprocessing, etc)
• Identification with the way community active contributors work
  

8. Anything else?


Best regards,
Ian.

Post scriptum:

For the record, Squeak Oversight Board should conduct such surveys in
the future. I trust the board to understand the community or otherwise
take actions in order to do so. However, I'd like your help to prove
the board that this is the right way to go and to be heard. So,
please, everybody, contribute with your opinion (even if you are a
timid person).

  

Am 19.04.2010 12:49, schrieb Ian Trudel:
> 1. What are your biggest hurdles preventing you from contributing to Squeak?
>  
Lack of time...
> 2. What would it take for you to contribute more?
>  
More time :-)
> 3. What are your expectations in regard to contributions?
>  
Not much - appreciation from Co-Squeakers is a nice thing, but I would
mostly contribute what I do for my own fun.
> 4. What are the reasons behind the low level of contributions from
> other community members, according to you?
>  
It's probably a mix of reasons. For some, lack of time might be their
reason, too. Others have probably unmet expectations about reception of
their contributions.
> 5. What would you improve in order to increase the number of
> contributions and the number of contributors?
>  
I have no idea. Everything that I can think of requires the investment
of more time, for example to coordinate development in sub-projects with
a clear goal of getting them into the mainstream Squeak distribution
(either as part of the default image, or as a well-supported package to
be loaded by those who want it).
> 6. How would you rate your sense of social identification to the
> Squeak community, on a scale from 1 to 10. (1 is the lowest, 10 the
> highest)
>  
About 5.
> 7. What is your rating based on?
>  
On one hand, I consider the Squeakers in general a group of very bright
and talented people who are full of great ideas (and they make quite a
number of them real). I do identify with this group.
On the other hand, I have found that my activity with Squeak and the
Squeak people varies a lot over time, so there have been times when I
did not follow developments much.
> 8. Anything else?
>  
I could list a number of things about Squeak and the Squeakers which are
simply outstanding. There's not enough room on this questionnaire to
write them all down :-)

Cheers,
Hans-Martin

Hi,

On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 12:49 PM, Ian Trudel <[hidden email]> wrote:
> 1. What are your biggest hurdles preventing you from contributing to Squeak?

honestly, lack of time. Also honestly, lack of necessary in-depth
knowledge of the system.

> 2. What would it take for you to contribute more?

More time, but also a better understanding of everything. That
includes the entire image, packages and VM. Transitively, this means
lots of documentation (and I mean "lots"). Tutorials, API
documentation with examples, such things. Especially the VM suffers
from this: documentation exists mostly in the heads of those few
ingenious beings that really know their way around the VM. As for
delving into the details and getting to know them better: see above re
time.

> 3. What are your expectations in regard to contributions?

My contributions? Others'? (Can't answer. Sorry.)

> 4. What are the reasons behind the low level of contributions from
> other community members, according to you?

Can't answer as well. Every community has strong and less strong
contributors, whatever their particular reasons may be. It is normal.
I guess the reason is that this is just another OSS community.

> 5. What would you improve in order to increase the number of
> contributions and the number of contributors?

Documentation, packaging - possibly in a bundled way.

> 6. How would you rate your sense of social identification to the
> Squeak community, on a scale from 1 to 10. (1 is the lowest, 10 the
> highest)

8.

> 7. What is your rating based on?

On my own impressions.

> 8. Anything else?

Yes: Ian: have you actually talked to the board about this poll beforehand?

Best,

Michael

On 4/19/2010 3:49 AM, Ian Trudel wrote:
> I would like to call for your opinion(s) in regard to contributions. I
> am a firm believer in surveying the community in order to improve our
> sense of direction, our culture, and bonding as a community.

Thanks for the post.

> 1. What are your biggest hurdles preventing you from contributing to Squeak?

A day job :-)

> 2. What would it take for you to contribute more?

Getting fired? ... wait, that sounds wrong :-)

> 3. What are your expectations in regard to contributions?

Depends on the size/scope of the contribution. Generally, I expect
check-in comments (and we have those, thanks everyone). Beyond that it
gets a bit blurry. Good documentation never hurts and providing a test
or two is almost always beneficial. But I wouldn't let have this be in
the way of a valuable contribution.

> 4. What are the reasons behind the low level of contributions from
> other community members, according to you?

(not necessarily in this order)
- Lack of time
- Lack of documentation
- Small size of total community

> 5. What would you improve in order to increase the number of
> contributions and the number of contributors?

- make Squeak more compelling to encourage new users
- re-integrate other communities (Etoys, Cobalt, Pharo)

> 6. How would you rate your sense of social identification to the
> Squeak community, on a scale from 1 to 10. (1 is the lowest, 10 the
> highest)

10

> 7. What is your rating based on?

Length and relative level of interaction.

> 8. Anything else?

I think this is a really interesting experiment.

Cheers,
   - Andreas

On Mon, 2010-04-19 at 06:49 -0400, Ian Trudel wrote:
> Dear Squeakizen,
>
> I would like to call for your opinion(s) in regard to contributions. I
> am a firm believer in surveying the community in order to improve our
> sense of direction, our culture, and bonding as a community.
>
> 1. What are your biggest hurdles preventing you from contributing to Squeak?
Time and the lack of good documentation.

The two are related: lack of documentation means it takes more time to
get anything done.  I've repeatedly had the experience of having some
time to work on a project in squeak, and then burning through the time
in the "getting started" phase.

My contributions would likely be application rather than infrastructure,
though there are various pieces that apps need that aren't there
(auto-completion, input widgets) I might make along the way.

>
> 2. What would it take for you to contribute more?
More time and better documentation.
>
> 3. What are your expectations in regard to contributions?
My hope is that, if worthy, the changes would make it into releases.  My
impression is that historically that has  not been the case, though
things may be better now.

I think the bar for documentation needs to be higher: there are too many
classes and methods without comments.  I don't honestly "expect" this
now, but contributions should have comments (and test cases if
appropriate).  Adding documentation after the fact is difficult, since
only original author may know the intent.

At the method level, I mean primarily documentation describing the
arguments and results of the method, along with any significant
side-effects.  Comments on particular pieces of codes or implementation
issues are nice too, but it terms of understanding how the system hangs
together they are not as critical.
>
> 4. What are the reasons behind the low level of contributions from
> other community members, according to you?
I'm not sure I agree that the level of contributions is low, and I'll
let others speak for themselves.
>
> 5. What would you improve in order to increase the number of
> contributions and the number of contributors?
Documentation.
>
> 6. How would you rate your sense of social identification to the
> Squeak community, on a scale from 1 to 10. (1 is the lowest, 10 the
> highest)
4
>
> 7. What is your rating based on?
I like squeak/smalltalk a lot and having been using it intermittently.
However, I haven't had much time to participate.
>
> 8. Anything else?
While the swiki is a valuable resource, the uncertain relevance of the
information there to any particular image makes it less helpful, because
in some cases it can be misleading.

I also think that the image is the best place for basic documentation,
except perhaps for the higher level "how it hangs together".

Ross Boylan

On 4/19/10 11:49 PM, "Andreas Raab" <[hidden email]> wrote:

>  re-integrate other communities (Etoys, Cobalt, Pharo)
+1

Should be number one goal of Board.
I like again a Squeak for kids from 5 to 105 years!
A home for us the rebels and for the common sense guys.
For boys and girls and mad scientists :=)
Where you could dream future and bring closer to now.

Edgar, Advocatus Diaboli

Bert, Hannes,

I'd be please to read your answers on the survey that I have posted.
Every opinion matter and I read them all. Multiple times. :) The more
opinions we get, the more representative of the community we are. In a
nutshell, if there are 200 messages to read, I will read them all and
I will make sure people get heard.

Casey has already participated. Good boy!

Thanks,
Ian.
--
http://mecenia.blogspot.com/

Hi Ian,

Thanks for doing this! I believe it will be very useful.
(answers below)

Ian Trudel wrote:
> Dear Squeakizen,
>
> I would like to call for your opinion(s) in regard to contributions. I
> am a firm believer in surveying the community in order to improve our
> sense of direction, our culture, and bonding as a community.
>
> 1. What are your biggest hurdles preventing you from contributing to Squeak?
>  

I use mainly Cuis, and devote almost all the time I have to it. When
something I do for Cuis is also appropriate for Squeak (or Pharo),
somebody (perhaps me) integrates it in Squeak (and/or Pharo). This
happens for just about 5% (I guess) of what I do for Cuis.

> 2. What would it take for you to contribute more?
>  

It would need Cuis and Squeak to get closer.

> 3. What are your expectations in regard to contributions?
>  

I expect them to be close to the Cuis objectives :)
- Remove complexity (not increase it)
- Be worth their weight (by giving large benefits with little
complexity, risk of new bugs, and memory/cpu usage)

> 4. What are the reasons behind the low level of contributions from
> other community members, according to you?
>  

- Way too much noise in squeak-dev list. People that is too vehement in
their opinions, intimidating others. Especially people who only
"contribute" opinions and not code.
- People having a hard time to understand that Open Source is more about
helping than about complaining (i.e. there is no vendor to complain to).
- People having a hard time to understand that Smalltalk is about
understanding the actual implementation of things, not just about using
an application (users that won't learn) or just using an api
(programmers that won't learn)
- A system that doesn't help understanding as much as it should. It is
too big and complex. It has too many aspects that nobody understands and
maintains.

> 5. What would you improve in order to increase the number of
> contributions and the number of contributors?
>  

Turn Squeak into Cuis :)

> 6. How would you rate your sense of social identification to the
> Squeak community, on a scale from 1 to 10. (1 is the lowest, 10 the
> highest)
>  

9.

> 7. What is your rating based on?
>  

I've been in this community for 13 years. I believe we are the keepers
of the Smalltalk-80 heritage, including the intentions and ideas behind
it. I believe that the opportunity to be part of this is the greatest
gift I was given in my professional life. So my identification with
Smalltalk-80, Squeak and Cuis is 10. But as I don't always agree with
the ways the community choses, my identification with the community is a
bit lower.

> 8. Anything else?
>  

Choosing simplicity and good design over features lists and
compatibility is going back to the "Design Principles Behind Smalltalk"
paper. It is also the way to encourage understanding and collaboration.

I agree, and thank you.

Cheers,
Juan Vuletich