Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)
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Le 5/3/16 18:22, Eliot Miranda a
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Why Pharo is not smalltalk and will not be Smalltalk
- First because we make it to free us from the past. - In the future we want that people that learned smalltalk in the 90 do not discard Pharo because - "what killed smalltalk was that we could not work well in team" - "smalltalk oh it does not scale" - "I cannot edit my code with emacs" - "oh back in 1993 I got lecture and the system took 10 min to boot on our sparc (I got this story yesterday)" - I did not get how you work in team - "with Smalltalk you cannot save your code in svn" - "Smalltalk is monolithic" - "you are in a cage you cannot interact with the outside world" a guy organising OOPSLA - "Smalltalk what a dated name! bavardage: tu programmes en bavardage, donc les resultats ne doivent pas etre si super que cela...." I do not care that these statements are right or wrong. I do not care that people are ignorant. And yes with some education we can show that they are wrong. There are in the mind of people that got in touch with Smalltalk. No more no less. So may be Smalltalkers should read book about marketing in general. So you are stuck in your history and I'm dreaming about the future: and the future is Pharo not Smalltalk. Face it. There will be no renewal of Smalltalk. Pharo is the chance for Smalltalk to exist in 2050. The future is much more important that the history. You do not make people dreaming telling them that back in the 1940 you add to cross the street to fetch water. left blank on purpose |
Re: Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)
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Sorry to say Stéphane, but those arguments are just as funny as wrong. You know what? I can copy some code from Smalltalk/X, Dolphin Smalltalk, VisualAge, ObjectStudio, VisualWorks, ObjectWorks, Smalltalk MT, Squeak, VSE, and many others and save it in Pharo and *it will compile* !! So I guess Pharo is Smalltalk. It's not because you renamed the workspace to Playground that it's not Smalltalk! If it's not Smalltalk, tell me what it is! And, btw, I can also take some Pharo code and import it in all the dialects mentionned above. So I guess Pharo, like it or not, with all the fancy names and *we don't want no fucking backward compatibility and we try to distance ourselves as far as possible from all Smalltalks* is still Smalltalk. Instead of spending a sh*tload of bytes arguing about this nonsense, let's move on to do some coding... In Pharo, in Squeak, in Dolphin, in VAST, in VW, in ObjectStudio, in Amber in whatever... I'm a Smalltalker : I don't give a f**k about the dialect. I love Smalltalk, whatever the dialect. ----------------- Benoît St-Jean Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean Twitter: @BenLeChialeux Pinterest: benoitstjean IRC: lamneth Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com "A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero". (A. Einstein) From: stepharo <[hidden email]> To: [hidden email] Sent: Sunday, March 6, 2016 3:48 AM Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)
Why Pharo is not smalltalk and will not be Smalltalk - First because we make it to free us from the past. - In the future we want that people that learned smalltalk in the 90 do not discard Pharo because - "what killed smalltalk was that we could not work well in team" - "smalltalk oh it does not scale" - "I cannot edit my code with emacs" - "oh back in 1993 I got lecture and the system took 10 min to boot on our sparc (I got this story yesterday)" - I did not get how you work in team - "with Smalltalk you cannot save your code in svn" - "Smalltalk is monolithic" - "you are in a cage you cannot interact with the outside world" a guy organising OOPSLA - "Smalltalk what a dated name! bavardage: tu programmes en bavardage, donc les resultats ne doivent pas etre si super que cela...." I do not care that these statements are right or wrong. I do not care that people are ignorant. And yes with some education we can show that they are wrong. There are in the mind of people that got in touch with Smalltalk. No more no less. So may be Smalltalkers should read book about marketing in general. So you are stuck in your history and I'm dreaming about the future: and the future is Pharo not Smalltalk. Face it. There will be no renewal of Smalltalk. Pharo is the chance for Smalltalk to exist in 2050. The future is much more important that the history. You do not make people dreaming telling them that back in the 1940 you add to cross the street to fetch water.
left blank on purpose Le 5/3/16 18:22, Eliot Miranda a
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You probably leave in a protected environment but I do not
live in the same. Did you check numPy recently or R? momemtum? Do you think that people do not know how to count? In 1980 my students were not even born, so how can it be better than python, java, c#, lua, ... Do you think that it makes me happy to see my old friends leaving our language and do node.js. Seriously. Why do you blame me? Frankly tell to leave Pharo and I will leave. I can tell you. I think that I need a break in my life in this moment so it would be a good opportunity. Because if each time I do something to improve the wealth and visibility of our system I get such kind of feedback then may be this is the time to do something. Afterall I may be wrong. Seriously if you think that I'm not doing a good job and you want to stay with old friends just let me know. but if I stay then do not tell me that I'm an asshole that does not want to promote smalltalk. I support this community and am excited to participate in
it. I admire and respect your efforts, Stéphane, in
developing, organizing and supporting this community. But
that does not mean I will keep quiet about something I
profoundly disagree with and think is wrong. And that thing
is to deny Pharo is Smalltalk.
And I do this not because I am a zealot, but because words
meaning are important, because to understand each other we
should call a spade a spade, and because I am grateful for and
delighted by this thing called Smalltalk, and I will not
support taking credit away from it. Ruby is inspired by
Smalltalk. Pharo is the real thing.
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Re: Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)
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In reply to this post by EstebanLM
+1000
----------------- Benoît St-Jean Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean Twitter: @BenLeChialeux Pinterest: benoitstjean IRC: lamneth Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com "A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero". (A. Einstein) From: Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]> To: Pharo Development List <[hidden email]> Cc: Any question about pharo is welcome <[hidden email]> Sent: Saturday, March 5, 2016 5:37 AM Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :) frankly all this zealot mails do not have any sense. first, SciSmalltalk is a project made fundamentally by Serge, and is Serge who has pointed he wants a change of name for something sexier… what is the problem? second, by discussing a nonsense (because is subjective and everybody has a different opinion) you are highjacking the real purpose of this mail: a call to the community to improve the numerical methods support in Pharo. So, please, can we stay cool and go back to discuss what is really important? cheers, Esteban > On 02 Mar 2016, at 14:33, stepharo <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Hi guys > > I met Didier Besset and we had a great hacking session and discussions with Serge Stinckwich. > Didier would like to help Pharo and the numerical part of it. ***Big thanks*** Didier. > > We would like to do several things: > > - Work on "Hows to" > The numerical methods in Pharo is good but the gap between us and the math is too large :) > so the idea is to have a series of "how to ..." > - histomgram (simple, based on distribution) > > - Improve the SciPharo/NumPha (previously SciSmalltalk) library > This morning we started to implement a ComponentPrincipalDecomposition by combining two of the > objects available in SciPharo. > Then we started to enhance the distributions to make sure that we can plug other distribution for having > controlled random number. > > - Do a public call to know what is missing for you: this is this mail :) > Didier would like to work on concrete cases. I love that attitude > So tell us :) > > Hernan ?? > Alex: ?? pvalue? better distribution? > Vincent: covariance? CPA? > Philippe: times series > Serge R frames? > Sami: Better random number and various distributions? > > - Organise a two day lectures with practices on concrete case in September with a recording session. > Either at IRD Bondy or Lille. > > - Make sure that the Numerical Method book will get on lulu :) with a better cover and title :) > > > Stef > > |
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In reply to this post by Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list
I do not know in which world you live. You are probably not exposed to
students and to technology stack, techno center, hackaton and other place were developers gather and hack. You probably use Smalltalk for your hobby and this is great. I'm selling Pharo to industry and programmers and the competition is real. I'm sad because you did not get anything that I'm said. Sorry but I will not continue this thread. Now you will not force us to market Pharo the way it should. If you are not happy, put money on the consortium and come to talk to us but you will be disappointed because the complete board is thinking the same. We are marketing our future. Now I will ask to be ban from this list such recurrent discussions. Why because we all lose time and you make me losing a lot of energy and frankly I would be you I would prefer that Stephane Ducasse, the Great Energizer is focusing on producing cool videos, new books or whatever instead of talking about this "pharo is smalltalk" shit. Yes you see I spent 14 hours to go to discuss with didier and we pushed the numerical method book (that I reviewed in the past several times), with serge we edited the new version of the book, we patiently collected all the libraries over the years, we are fighting with dependencies and more. So it gives the right to do what we want and if you are not happy, I'm sorry about it but this is like that! Stef |
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In reply to this post by Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list
Sorry, but this is the only reasonable thing I can rescue from this whole thread. The same discussion arises every year once or twice and is always same result: nothing, except people getting angry and trolling in every possible direction… we will *never* reach an agreement here because is a subjective matter. Is that a reason to zealot about? No (and take into account I’m referring to all positions here, not just one side or another). So I will ask *again* too calm down and let’s talk about what is really important? This thread has now 44 mails (45 with this now)… of those, just the first mail had something to do with the original purpose. Stay calm, stay cool… we are all big persons with strong opinions that deserves respect. But we are here to put that positions aside and to discuss about what we can do together… they can be great of dust, you decide. Esteban ps: if it helps, consider this thread as “moderated: not constructive” :) |
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In reply to this post by stepharo
+100
On 06.03.2016 09:48, stepharo wrote:
Why Pharo is not smalltalk and will not be Smalltalk |
Re: Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)
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Sorry guys but I dont think this is non sense because you may be coding in Pharo and Smalltalk for a long time, but as a beginner I was confused by this, and to this day I am still confused why Pharo is not calling itself a modern implementation of Smalltalk. Even in Pharo by Example there was no mention at all the Pharo is a Squeak fork, nothing, now there is (few week before) , guess who added it. No mention about Squeak in our website whatsoever. Why ? Do we just fork and forget about them ? Also this whole guilt about the so called "failure" or "death" of smalltalk is hilarious. Smalltalk was never popular and we certainly wont be with Pharo, because in the end its very unfamiliar and most coders dont like going outside their comfort zone. Personally I am fine with that but this is why I use Pharo to get outside my comfort zone and think outside the box, but I dont kid myself, I belong to a tiny minority. Pharo IS Smalltalk, Pharo IS a Squeak fork, Pharo is a modern implementation that tries to push forward but respects its heritage and pays credit to it. On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 12:30 PM Volkert <[hidden email]> wrote:
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Re: Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)
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Amen! My lastname is St-Jean, like it or not I'm closer to Ducasse than Hollansworth! I discovered Smalltalk with ObjectWorks on AIX : I'm closer to Pharo than Python, C, C++, C#, Ruby, Snobol, Dart, Go or any other language... Like it or not, I'm closer to Smalltalk than Java, COBOL or any other retarded programming language... I've been working as a consultant in Smalltalk since the 90s. I don't care : VW, VAST, VSE as long as it's Smalltalk! I'm closer to Pharo than I am to anything else (except Modula-2). This stupid war is sooooooo stupid! If you know what the DNU acronym means, you're a Smalltalker. Period. Pharo can go its own way (whether I like it nor not), but it's still Smalltalk! These guys (the Pharoers, and Stéphane Ducasse) have made *tremendous* steps forward. Like "how come nobody ever did that for Smalltalk except James Robertson" ? I like Pharo. I fell in love with VW 2.5. Vous êtes si belles, vous toutes! I love Smalltalk! ----------------- Benoît St-Jean Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean Twitter: @BenLeChialeux Pinterest: benoitstjean IRC: lamneth Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com "A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero". (A. Einstein) From: Dimitris Chloupis <[hidden email]> To: Pharo Development List <[hidden email]> Sent: Sunday, March 6, 2016 7:00 AM Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :) Sorry guys but I dont think this is non sense because you may be coding in Pharo and Smalltalk for a long time, but as a beginner I was confused by this, and to this day I am still confused why Pharo is not calling itself a modern implementation of Smalltalk. Even in Pharo by Example there was no mention at all the Pharo is a Squeak fork, nothing, now there is (few week before) , guess who added it. No mention about Squeak in our website whatsoever. Why ? Do we just fork and forget about them ? Also this whole guilt about the so called "failure" or "death" of smalltalk is hilarious. Smalltalk was never popular and we certainly wont be with Pharo, because in the end its very unfamiliar and most coders dont like going outside their comfort zone. Personally I am fine with that but this is why I use Pharo to get outside my comfort zone and think outside the box, but I dont kid myself, I belong to a tiny minority. Pharo IS Smalltalk, Pharo IS a Squeak fork, Pharo is a modern implementation that tries to push forward but respects its heritage and pays credit to it. On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 12:30 PM Volkert <[hidden email]> wrote:
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Re: Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)
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I appreciate what all you are doing (as a teacher / developer / user / supporter) (this is all I have to say to this topic) Thanks ! And go one :-) |
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In reply to this post by Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list
You know people, you should get a life. The call was to Pharoers to improve Numerical Methods in Pharo. I understand that someone is pissed that Pharo is evolving, but I don’t understand why you keep replying to them. Uko
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Re: Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)
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In reply to this post by EstebanLM
It is understandable that over time an own identity for Pharo is helpful (especially
because of the bad Smalltalk marketing, failures of commercial vendors in the past, ...). But also no one can not deny/hide the original roots of Pharo: the primary foundations with pure objects all the way down and messages and concepts just plain Smalltalk. Same for the basic class hierarchy, ... So this discussion is useless, especially because Pharo still lacks many of the features a portable, integratable environment should have (and that Smalltalk failed to deliver, at least in a common way). We should not confuse wishes/dreams with existing state of the technology and facts. Also why discuss about this now again? Did we discuss about renaming SUnit into PUnit? No. This just burns our cycles. For the marketing part there is a primary question to be answered: what are the (business) problems Pharo can solve. At least if we want Pharo to be commercially viable and get money (not only our own) into the community. This is the part that was answered by other languages and technologies so far and the simple reason why they are used: even when they are ugly they solve a problem. Nonetheless: ============ If there is a rename I would suggest to rename "SciSmalltalk" into "Polymath". - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polymath - it can be applied to many subject areas - would be related to Math and science - would also have a "P" like Pharo in the name - Da Vinci was a polymath person, as well as Imhotep :) Bye T. |
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In reply to this post by Nicolai Hess-3-2
Le 6/3/16 14:53, Nicolai Hess a écrit : > > > Thank you Stéphane Ducasse, > thank you Eliot Miranda, > and all other people of this community. > > I appreciate what all you are doing (as a teacher / developer / user / > supporter) > for <enter your favourite name for this great exceptional computing > environment> > and it is a pleasure for me to work with you. Me too :) > (this is all I have to say to this topic) > > Thanks ! And go one :-) > > nicolai |
Re: Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)
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In reply to this post by Torsten Bergmann
So was SciSmalltalk renamed? -cam On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 9:05 AM, Torsten Bergmann <[hidden email]> wrote: It is understandable that over time an own identity for Pharo is helpful (especially |
Re: Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)
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Seems that it was renamed? Any hints of the tools I should look at to find the rank of something in a distribution? -cam On Sun, Apr 3, 2016 at 1:54 PM, Cameron Sanders via Pharo-dev <[hidden email]> wrote:
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