Call for a Widgetry Community

Christian,

I totally agree with you and will help where possible, but we have to take in our breath and ask this o so difficult question to Samuel,

Offcourse if Widgetry could become something like Glorp withe some basic website a mailing list and regular store updates then that would be great.

@+Maarten,

Christian Haider a écrit :

I have decided that I will move all my UI development to Widgetry, because I dont think that Cincom can provide anything better for many years to come. Although it would be OK for me to branch off my private Widgetry version and maintain and enhance it for my purposes, it would be much better if a group of people would join forces and gather in a community to take care of this powerful newly born UI framework.

 

Widgetry is very appealing to me because:

 

- its features

Finally we got a UI framework for VisualWorks in the same league with other frameworks. To me, Widgetry is (just) the rewrite of the old UI framework. It shares several concepts with its predecessor and is not sooo different to it. It is just the modern, up-to-date version. It implemented many of the long requested features and added promising new concepts.

 

- its simplicity

The usage and implementation is much more straightforward. Since everything is dynamic, it is much simpler to setup and modify widgets and UIs. The separation of concerns into Panes, Agents, Artists and Frames, which are exchangeable at runtime, is a forward-looking design which makes modifications less complex. It is much easier to understand the code and the flow of execution in order to find the right places where things are done.

 

- its extensibility

This point triggers my fantasy the most: with Widgetry it is possible to be creative with UIs again. New widgets are easy to create and existing ones are easy to specialize. I feel liberated so that I can think again about how a good UI should be, not about what the framework allows me to do (with reasonable effort).

 

- and it just looks and feels much better.

 

 

Widgetry was released as 1.0. To me this means that it is out of beta and ready for production, which I believe it is. However, it is not perfect or complete. What Widgetry needs now are people who work with it and people who work on it. The API must now be beaten from all sides and angles in order to perfect the usability and to find all the bugs and corner cases.

 

 

It was made clear that Cincom does not have any interest in Widgetry anymore. This is bad news for Cincom and all users of VisualWorks.

The good news is that it is there and that it can be used. To just let it silently die would be a shame and would mean losing a great opportunity. Therefore, I propose to gather in a community to take care and raise this promising new baby.

 

Since I have a vital interest in Widgetry, I promise that I will be active in such an effort by using and improving Widgetry. I would even take the lead for the moment, if nobody else does (usually I shy away from such a responsibility, but this one is just too important to me).

 

The mission of the project would be (for me) to

 

    Provide a modern and forward-looking UI framework for VisualWorks

 

The scope of the proposed community project would be to

1. fix bugs as they are discovered (maintenance)

2. enhance Widgetry

    - refactor and improve micro designs (where appropriate)

    - add more user friendly API (syntactic sugar)

    - add more documentation

    - add new cool widgets

    - add new cool features

3. create facilities for porting old style UIs to Widgetry

 

 

The most important practical step right now would be to

1. decide where we want to discuss the community setup details (vwnc, another mailing list or private emails)

2. to find a place where the project could be hosted. The main features needed would be IMHO:

- Issues tracker as central place for all requirements

- FTP server for parcels of released versions

- Wiki for documentation and discussions

- mailing list (if we dont stay on vwnc)

- store (if we dont stay in the public store)

- (what else?)

 

 

One last word: This effort can only be successful if we can manage to keep all the bad feelings and disappointed expectations out of it (I do have a strong opinion about Cincoms decision, but would prefer to discuss this only in private). The Widgetry project can only succeed by offering the better technical alternative for VisualWorks users.

 

 

I invite everybody who wants to use Widgetry, wants to improve Widgetry or is just interested in its future to participate.

 

Join the future of UIs!

 

Cheers,

    Christian

 

I am very interested in continuing to use Widgetry for Liberty BASIC
development and would like to participate in this community.

-Carl
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christian Haider" <[hidden email]>
To: "VW NC" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 11:42 AM
Subject: Call for a Widgetry Community


I have decided that I will move all my UI development to Widgetry,
because I dont think that Cincom can provide anything better for many
years to come. Although it would be OK for me to branch off my private
Widgetry version and maintain and enhance it for my purposes, it would
be much better if a group of people would join forces and gather in a
community to take care of this powerful newly born UI framework.

Widgetry is very appealing to me because:

- its features
Finally we got a UI framework for VisualWorks in the same league with
other frameworks. To me, Widgetry is (just) the rewrite of the old UI
framework. It shares several concepts with its predecessor and is not
sooo different to it. It is just the modern, up-to-date version. It
implemented many of the long requested features and added promising new
concepts.

- its simplicity
The usage and implementation is much more straightforward. Since
everything is dynamic, it is much simpler to setup and modify widgets
and UIs. The separation of concerns into Panes, Agents, Artists and
Frames, which are exchangeable at runtime, is a forward-looking design
which makes modifications less complex. It is much easier to understand
the code and the flow of execution in order to find the right places
where things are done.

- its extensibility
This point triggers my fantasy the most: with Widgetry it is possible to
be creative with UIs again. New widgets are easy to create and existing
ones are easy to specialize. I feel liberated so that I can think again
about how a good UI should be, not about what the framework allows me to
do (with reasonable effort).

- and it just looks and feels much better.


Widgetry was released as 1.0. To me this means that it is out of beta
and ready for production, which I believe it is. However, it is not
perfect or complete. What Widgetry needs now are people who work with it
and people who work on it. The API must now be beaten from all sides and
angles in order to perfect the usability and to find all the bugs and
corner cases.


It was made clear that Cincom does not have any interest in Widgetry
anymore. This is bad news for Cincom and all users of VisualWorks.
The good news is that it is there and that it can be used. To just let
it silently die would be a shame and would mean losing a great
opportunity. Therefore, I propose to gather in a community to take care
and raise this promising new baby.

Since I have a vital interest in Widgetry, I promise that I will be
active in such an effort by using and improving Widgetry. I would even
take the lead for the moment, if nobody else does (usually I shy away
from such a responsibility, but this one is just too important to me).

The mission of the project would be (for me) to

    Provide a modern and forward-looking UI framework for VisualWorks

The scope of the proposed community project would be to
1. fix bugs as they are discovered (maintenance)
2. enhance Widgetry
    - refactor and improve micro designs (where appropriate)
    - add more user friendly API (syntactic sugar)
    - add more documentation
    - add new cool widgets
    - add new cool features
3. create facilities for porting old style UIs to Widgetry


The most important practical step right now would be to
1. decide where we want to discuss the community setup details (vwnc,
another mailing list or private emails)
2. to find a place where the project could be hosted. The main features
needed would be IMHO:
- Issues tracker as central place for all requirements
- FTP server for parcels of released versions
- Wiki for documentation and discussions
- mailing list (if we dont stay on vwnc)
- store (if we dont stay in the public store)
- (what else?)


One last word: This effort can only be successful if we can manage to
keep all the bad feelings and disappointed expectations out of it (I do
have a strong opinion about Cincoms decision, but would prefer to
discuss this only in private). The Widgetry project can only succeed by
offering the better technical alternative for VisualWorks users.


I invite everybody who wants to use Widgetry, wants to improve Widgetry
or is just interested in its future to participate.

Join the future of UIs!

Cheers,
    Christian

Sorry, should have hit reply-all instead.  As per below, I would participate.

Mike

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Christian Haider < [hidden email]>
Date: Sep 21, 2007 12:43 AM
Subject: AW: Call for a Widgetry Community
To: Mike Hales <[hidden email]>



--
Mike Hales
Engineering Manager
KnowledgeScape
www.kscape.com

Christian Haider wrote:
> 3. the licence. I think this should be public domain. Is this
> possible/recommended given that the base is not public domain (Bruce,
> you are the expert - what do you think)?

IANAL, but I have done a little research on open-source licensing. My
understanding is that since the base is not open-source, the result of
your collective labors cannot be open-source.

It might be theoretically possible to choose to open-source your
modifications to the base, but it's probably so difficult as to be
impractical. For instance if you modify a method from the base, then
which part of the method is under which method? If the method qualifies
legally as a derivative work of the original method, you may not be able
to license any of the method differently. Even if it's legally possible,
the bookkeeping would be an incredible headache

Unless Cincom agrees to modify the current license terms, by far the
easiest course is for all contributors to assign copyright of their
contributions to Cincom, on the condition that their contributions
remain publicly available and fall under the same licenses as the base
(which I understand from previous discussion to be the same licenses as
VW itself, including the VWNC license).

Regards,

-Martin

This sounds fine with me.
Any idea how this could be put in words?
We should then put this in the publish comments. Or where else could
this be noted?.

Cheers,
        Christian

----- Original Message -----

From: [hidden email]

To: [hidden email]

Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 10:42 AM

Subject: Call for a Widgetry Community

I have decided that I will move all my UI development to Widgetry, because I dont think that Cincom can provide anything better for many years to come. Although it would be OK for me to branch off my private Widgetry version and maintain and enhance it for my purposes, it would be much better if a group of people would join forces and gather in a community to take care of this powerful newly born UI framework.

 

Widgetry is very appealing to me because:

 

- its features

Finally we got a UI framework for VisualWorks in the same league with other frameworks. To me, Widgetry is (just) the rewrite of the old UI framework. It shares several concepts with its predecessor and is not sooo different to it. It is just the modern, up-to-date version. It implemented many of the long requested features and added promising new concepts.

 

- its simplicity

The usage and implementation is much more straightforward. Since everything is dynamic, it is much simpler to setup and modify widgets and UIs. The separation of concerns into Panes, Agents, Artists and Frames, which are exchangeable at runtime, is a forward-looking design which makes modifications less complex. It is much easier to understand the code and the flow of execution in order to find the right places where things are done.

 

- its extensibility

This point triggers my fantasy the most: with Widgetry it is possible to be creative with UIs again. New widgets are easy to create and existing ones are easy to specialize. I feel liberated so that I can think again about how a good UI should be, not about what the framework allows me to do (with reasonable effort).

 

- and it just looks and feels much better.

 

 

Widgetry was released as 1.0. To me this means that it is out of beta and ready for production, which I believe it is. However, it is not perfect or complete. What Widgetry needs now are people who work with it and people who work on it. The API must now be beaten from all sides and angles in order to perfect the usability and to find all the bugs and corner cases.

 

 

It was made clear that Cincom does not have any interest in Widgetry anymore. This is bad news for Cincom and all users of VisualWorks.

The good news is that it is there and that it can be used. To just let it silently die would be a shame and would mean losing a great opportunity. Therefore, I propose to gather in a community to take care and raise this promising new baby.

 

Since I have a vital interest in Widgetry, I promise that I will be active in such an effort by using and improving Widgetry. I would even take the lead for the moment, if nobody else does (usually I shy away from such a responsibility, but this one is just too important to me).

 

The mission of the project would be (for me) to

 

    Provide a modern and forward-looking UI framework for VisualWorks

 

The scope of the proposed community project would be to

1. fix bugs as they are discovered (maintenance)

2. enhance Widgetry

    - refactor and improve micro designs (where appropriate)

    - add more user friendly API (syntactic sugar)

    - add more documentation

    - add new cool widgets

    - add new cool features

3. create facilities for porting old style UIs to Widgetry

 

 

The most important practical step right now would be to

1. decide where we want to discuss the community setup details (vwnc, another mailing list or private emails)

2. to find a place where the project could be hosted. The main features needed would be IMHO:

- Issues tracker as central place for all requirements

- FTP server for parcels of released versions

- Wiki for documentation and discussions

- mailing list (if we dont stay on vwnc)

- store (if we dont stay in the public store)

- (what else?)

 

 

One last word: This effort can only be successful if we can manage to keep all the bad feelings and disappointed expectations out of it (I do have a strong opinion about Cincoms decision, but would prefer to discuss this only in private). The Widgetry project can only succeed by offering the better technical alternative for VisualWorks users.

 

 

I invite everybody who wants to use Widgetry, wants to improve Widgetry or is just interested in its future to participate.

 

Join the future of UIs!

 

Cheers,

    Christian

 

Charles,

Charles Adams wrote:

I also respectfully request that discussion on development on open-sourced Widgetry not take place in this list. Its not my list, but I read it frequently and I expect to see topics relevant to Cincom VW.

On the contrary I think that this list is actually a right place to discuss things like building a community around Widgetry. Because this list is about the VisualWorks community, not about the Cincom. It is even not run by the Cincom but by university (UIUC).

But I agree that later a separate mailing list should be opened, but later, when Widgetry community will already be alive.

Best regards
Janko

Hi Christian,

I'm not an expert for licenses and copyright issues, but nonetheless I
suggest that you carefully check the (commercial) VW license and the
VW-NC license for any regulations which apply to derived works.

If I were you, I would contact Cincom directly and try to get an
explicit statement allowing you to proceed with what you proposed, just
to make sure that you don't get into trouble. Cincom may or may not be
willing to change the terms under which Widgetry is currently available
(if any change is actually needed), but I wouldn't expect a reaction
within days. After all, this is about copyright and licenses in an
international context - that's a complicated affair, and Cincom's legal
department will probably have to be involved, not only product
management. This is not to say that it will be difficult to get Cincom's
consent - as far as I can judge, Cincom has been quite open-minded about
working with the community so far. It's just that you will have to come
to an unambiguous agreement, even if it's as simple as "we have no
objections, because it's covered by the current license".

If you are publishing additions to Widgetry, like additional widgets or
tools, which do not modify Widgetry code, you are of course free to
publish them under whatever license you find most appropriate. Judging
from the license statements of the packages you published earlier this
week, I think that the MIT license might be a good option.

Just my 2c.

Joachim

Martin McClure schrieb am 21.09.2007 18:39:

The code is nw available under the same terms as all of CST - commercially
or under NC.  Any derived work would fall under the same regime.  We have no
objection to developers working on this, including using the public store -
we just want to make sure that you understand that Cincom will not be
participating in the project

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joachim Geidel" <[hidden email]>
To: "Christian Haider" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "VW NC" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2007 3:39 AM
Subject: Re: Call for a Widgetry Community

Christian,

Sorry for the slow reply.  I'm in Sydney at the moment and have no
reliable Internet connection.

On 21/09/2007, Christian Haider
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> 3. the licence. I think this should be public domain. Is this
> possible/recommended given that the base is not public domain (Bruce, you
> are the expert - what do you think)?

First, IANAL.  You really should talk to a lawyer once you have formed
a view of what you are trying to do.

The options are broadly:

GPL style license which espouses "share and share alike" with the aim
of keeping a work open by requiring that people who get a copy let
others have a copy under the same terms (if they choose to pass it on
at all).

BSD style license which espouses "credit where credit is due".  The
only requirement placed upon users of the library is that they leave
the copyright notice in place.

VWNC (or other commercial but liberal) license which we are told will
not place any limitations on use or extention of Widgetry.

Public Domain applies to works for which the copyright has expired.
Once in the public domain there are no restrictions on copying at all,
but I think the rules about making (ahead of copyright expiry)
something public domain vary around the world.

Which is "best" is a judgement call for the copyright holder.  In the
case of Widgetry that would be Cincom.

This gets a bit more interesting when it comes to work which is built
upon Widgetry.  The  initial licence chosen by Cincom will have a big
influence, but anything is possible from the copyright of the new work
being assigned to Cincom through to the author of the extension being
able to choose their own license.  Clearly things could become rather
messy if Widgetry ended up with many different licenses covering
different bits, so it would be better, if possible, to have all work
under one license.

It is hard to see how Widgetry could be developed in a community
context without a FOSS license, but it is also hard to imagine a FOSS
license being acceptable to Cincom.  The alternative to a FOSS license
is to rely on the promise from Cincom that Widgetry will always be
freely available under the VWNC license and assign all works back to
Cincom.

IMHO.

But do see a lawyer before committing to anything.

HTH,
    Bruce
--
Make the most of your skills - with OpenSkills
http://www.openskills.org/

Hi Christian,

Your initiative is bold and commendable :).

I am interested in using Widgetry. I cannot commit too much effort  
into developing the framework, but I can provide feedback from using it.

Cheers,
Doru

On Sep 20, 2007, at 5:42 PM, Christian Haider wrote:

--
www.iam.unibe.ch/~girba
www.iam.unibe.ch/~girba/blog/

"There are no old things, there are only old ways of looking at them."