Comparison by example

> Hi guys,
>
> I'm opening a new thread with idea by Johan and Hannes to write an
> example app on all three web frameworks. Here is a copy of that thread
> and first Hannes proposal:
>
> Johan: For comparing, it would be really good to have the same
> application written in the three frameworks by experts and have the
> experts compare them. Hey, if I find the time (oeps) I would even love
> to help out on that one.
>
> Janko: Agreed! And I'm hardly waiting for someone to come out with an
> idea, what to build for such comparison. I have one, but you will for
> sure declare me biased again .. :) A so called real-time web example: a
> multi-user chat. As that one on GMail, for instance. Another would be a
> basic CRUD example, which is so common pattern, filling that 90% of
> cases, to show, how the frameworks cover the people's most basic needs.
>
> Hannes proposal:
> ---------------
> Maybe a sample application which is combination of both your suggestions
> :-).
>
> A kind of more elaborate ToDo list (cf. the Seaside example in the tutorial)
>
> Features:
>
> - Multi-user
> - The users see a list of ToDo items and sees to whom they are assigned.
> - In a chat area they can discuss about the items and reassign them
>   accordingly.
> - Some views/reports (current tasks, my tasks, finished tasks, task in
>   a particular month).
>
> If you want more
>
> - A wiki in addition
> - A glossary (special terms in the reports are automatically
>   hyper-linked to a glossary entry)
>
> Best regards
> Hannes
>
> P.S. I am sure that other people have better ideas.
> I have no idea how much time this takes to implement in Aida/Web. In
> Seaside it is quite an effort.
>
>
>

> Hannes,
>
> What I'd like to ask you is to continue detailing your proposal, so that
> we will have just exact enough blueprint for this example app. Not too
> much, not too few, just enough :)
>
> Best regards
> Janko
>
> S, Janko Mivšek piše:
>> Hi guys,
>>
>> I'm opening a new thread with idea by Johan and Hannes to write an
>> example app on all three web frameworks. Here is a copy of that thread
>> and first Hannes proposal:
>>
>> Johan: For comparing, it would be really good to have the same
>> application written in the three frameworks by experts and have the
>> experts compare them. Hey, if I find the time (oeps) I would even love
>> to help out on that one.
>>
>> Janko: Agreed! And I'm hardly waiting for someone to come out with an
>> idea, what to build for such comparison. I have one, but you will for
>> sure declare me biased again .. :) A so called real-time web example: a
>> multi-user chat. As that one on GMail, for instance. Another would be a
>> basic CRUD example, which is so common pattern, filling that 90% of
>> cases, to show, how the frameworks cover the people's most basic needs.
>>
>> Hannes proposal:
>> ---------------
>> Maybe a sample application which is combination of both your suggestions
>> :-).
>>
>> A kind of more elaborate ToDo list (cf. the Seaside example in the
>> tutorial)
>>
>> Features:
>>
>> - Multi-user
>> - The users see a list of ToDo items and sees to whom they are assigned.
>> - In a chat area they can discuss about the items and reassign them
>>   accordingly.
>> - Some views/reports (current tasks, my tasks, finished tasks, task in
>>   a particular month).
>>
>> If you want more
>>
>> - A wiki in addition
>> - A glossary (special terms in the reports are automatically
>>   hyper-linked to a glossary entry)
>>
>> Best regards
>> Hannes
>>
>> P.S. I am sure that other people have better ideas.
>> I have no idea how much time this takes to implement in Aida/Web. In
>> Seaside it is quite an effort.
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> Janko Mivšek
> Aida/Web
> Smalltalk Web Application Server
> http://www.aidaweb.si
>

> Janko,
>
> Fine, I copy a more detailed proposal in below.
> You may directly edit it under
> http://www.edupad.ch/tB6G15hqCx
>
> The version below is saved as version 1.
> In the hope I approach your wish of "not too much, not too few, just
> enough".
>
> However everybody who is interested is invited to directly do the
> changes there and then save a version.
>
> I propose that you then copy the version to this email so that people
> who do not feel comfortable using the etherpad can contribute with
> traditional mailing list replies.
>
> Regards
> Hannes
>
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
> Copy of
> http://www.edupad.ch/tB6G15hqCx
> Version 1
> -------------------------------------------------------
>
> Smalltalk web frameworks comparison
> example application
> Aim
> ------
> There are three Smalltalk webframeworks
>
>     Seaside
>
>     Aida
>
>     Ilias
>
> One way to compare them is to create a table with features
> https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Atnb1W9vuq9ndGRTUFIzT3VON0lTQ3JxdlZYTUxhOFE&hl=en&authkey=CJva7-8L&pli=1#gid=0
> On the mailing lists people brought up the shortcomings of this
> approach and the suggestion was made to implement the same application
> in all the three frameworks.
> Point of departure
> -------------------------
> Applications in the Ducasse Seaside book
> http://book.seaside.st/book/in-action/todo  ToDo List application
> http://book.seaside.st/book/in-action/serving-files  Serving files (e.g.
> images)
> http://book.seaside.st/book/web-20/rss  Really Simple Syndication
> http://book.seaside.st/book/in-action/sudoku  A Web Sodoku Player
> Application in the HPI Seaside book
> ToDo list application with login; each user has his or her ToDo list
> http://www.hpi.uni-potsdam.de/hirschfeld/seaside/tutorial
> The Gemstone tutorial does not have a sample application. It explains
> how parts are done.
> http://seaside.gemstone.com/tutorial.html
> Aida
> Sample application is an address book
> http://www.aidaweb.si/tutorial.html
> (Note: a screenshot of the main screen on the web page would be nice)
> So for a comparison it seems like a natural extension to build on what
> is available -- the ToDo list application. And the HPI book has the
> most comprehensive one.
> Iliad web frame work
> No application (on the web site); not checked in the code
> ToDo List application
> 1) Do for all frameworks what is described in the HPI book (several
> users; each user has his private todo list)
> 2) Extend it that several users may have a common todo list where
> everybody can add todo items and mark them as done (with a remark
> field for notes and a field who created a todo item and who marked it
> as done)
> 3) Extend it that todo items may be assigned to a user and offer views
> so that people see the todo items assigned to them
> 4) Add a glossary module (e.g. list of abbreviations and expansions);
> people may use special terms in the todo list items; they should
> appear as hyperlinks or have a hover help explanation (the glossary
> term when hovering over the term).
> 5) Add a chat module so that people can meet and  discuss about todo
> items and move assignments and priorities around.
> Resources
> Seaside Books
> Dynamic Web Development with Seaside
> by S. Ducasse, L. Renggli, C. D. Shaffer, R. Zaccone with M. Davies 2009
> http://book.seaside.st/book
> An Introduction to Seaside
> by M. Perscheid, M. Haupt, M. Beck, P. Osburg, J. Eastman, R.
> Hirschfeld, D. Tibbe, S. Berger 2008
> http://www.hpi.uni-potsdam.de/hirschfeld/seaside/tutorial
> Gemstone Tutorial
> http://seaside.gemstone.com/tutorial.html
> Aida Web Documentation
> http://www.aidaweb.si
> Iliad Project Documentation
> http://www.iliadproject.org/
>
>
> On 6/23/11, Janko Mivšek <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hannes,
>>
>> What I'd like to ask you is to continue detailing your proposal, so that
>> we will have just exact enough blueprint for this example app. Not too
>> much, not too few, just enough :)
>>
>> Best regards
>> Janko
>>
>> S, Janko Mivšek piše:
>>> Hi guys,
>>>
>>> I'm opening a new thread with idea by Johan and Hannes to write an
>>> example app on all three web frameworks. Here is a copy of that thread
>>> and first Hannes proposal:
>>>
>>> Johan: For comparing, it would be really good to have the same
>>> application written in the three frameworks by experts and have the
>>> experts compare them. Hey, if I find the time (oeps) I would even love
>>> to help out on that one.
>>>
>>> Janko: Agreed! And I'm hardly waiting for someone to come out with an
>>> idea, what to build for such comparison. I have one, but you will for
>>> sure declare me biased again .. :) A so called real-time web example: a
>>> multi-user chat. As that one on GMail, for instance. Another would be a
>>> basic CRUD example, which is so common pattern, filling that 90% of
>>> cases, to show, how the frameworks cover the people's most basic needs.
>>>
>>> Hannes proposal:
>>> ---------------
>>> Maybe a sample application which is combination of both your suggestions
>>> :-).
>>>
>>> A kind of more elaborate ToDo list (cf. the Seaside example in the
>>> tutorial)
>>>
>>> Features:
>>>
>>> - Multi-user
>>> - The users see a list of ToDo items and sees to whom they are assigned.
>>> - In a chat area they can discuss about the items and reassign them
>>>   accordingly.
>>> - Some views/reports (current tasks, my tasks, finished tasks, task in
>>>   a particular month).
>>>
>>> If you want more
>>>
>>> - A wiki in addition
>>> - A glossary (special terms in the reports are automatically
>>>   hyper-linked to a glossary entry)
>>>
>>> Best regards
>>> Hannes
>>>
>>> P.S. I am sure that other people have better ideas.
>>> I have no idea how much time this takes to implement in Aida/Web. In
>>> Seaside it is quite an effort.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Janko Mivšek
>> Aida/Web
>> Smalltalk Web Application Server
>> http://www.aidaweb.si
>>
>

> Hi guys,
>
> I'm opening a new thread with idea by Johan and Hannes to write an
> example app on all three web frameworks. Here is a copy of that thread
> and first Hannes proposal:
>
> Johan: For comparing, it would be really good to have the same
> application written in the three frameworks by experts and have the
> experts compare them. Hey, if I find the time (oeps) I would even love
> to help out on that one.
>
> Janko: Agreed! And I'm hardly waiting for someone to come out with an
> idea, what to build for such comparison. I have one, but you will for
> sure declare me biased again .. :) A so called real-time web example: a
> multi-user chat. As that one on GMail, for instance. Another would be a
> basic CRUD example, which is so common pattern, filling that 90% of
> cases, to show, how the frameworks cover the people's most basic needs.
>

> Idea for a project: a simple bug tracker.
> On Jun 23, 2011 6:22 PM, "Germán Arduino" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> 2011/6/23 Janko Mivšek <[hidden email]>:
>>> Hi guys,
>>>
>>> I'm opening a new thread with idea by Johan and Hannes to write an
>>> example app on all three web frameworks. Here is a copy of that thread
>>> and first Hannes proposal:
>>>
>>> Johan: For comparing, it would be really good to have the same
>>> application written in the three frameworks by experts and have the
>>> experts compare them. Hey, if I find the time (oeps) I would even love
>>> to help out on that one.
>>>
>>> Janko: Agreed! And I'm hardly waiting for someone to come out with an
>>> idea, what to build for such comparison. I have one, but you will for
>>> sure declare me biased again .. :) A so called real-time web example: a
>>> multi-user chat. As that one on GMail, for instance. Another would be a
>>> basic CRUD example, which is so common pattern, filling that 90% of
>>> cases, to show, how the frameworks cover the people's most basic needs.
>>>
>>
>> Seems that I arrived some minutes later to this new thread, but in any
> case
>> I'm copying here the same things I wrote in the other thread:
>>
>>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Build a real world application to compare it's also a good idea.
>>
>> I my own experience, with my own customers, the far more asked
>> solution is allways related with different sort of ERP's.
>>
>> A good step in this way in my opinion is the work of the guys of
>> SmallPOS (http://www.squeaksource.com/SmallPOS/)
>>
>> Things as invoices, stock, current accounts, billing, bank, finances,
>> production chain, etc, with plenty of relationship between
>> data (aka objects) and lot of different sort of forms (as
>> master-detail, grids, paging, search over the grids, filtering, etc).
>>
>> The capability of supply to the final user the facility of build it's
>> own reports is also a thing I miss from the old Visual FoxPro
>> frameworks I used to work with in the past. One of the best I knew is
>> this one: http://www.promatrix.com/index.php were the
>> developer can find not only a framework else a good number to
>> "generators" (Automatic building of common things in a standardized
>> way). This is (was?) the main goal of a tool that I started with a
>> friend of me several years ago that I so called SDA (Smalltalk
>> Developer Assistant). As usual, the need of pay the bills go against
>> of the free time to invest in these sort of projects.
>>
>> Just my 2 cents.
>>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Germán.
>> _______________________________________________
>> seaside mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>