Comparison of Aida/Web, Seaside and Iliad web frameworks

Dear Smalltalkers,

Few months ago I started a comparison of Aida, Seaside and Iliad web
frameworks, with initial goal to check the strengths and weaknesses of
Aida to draw a direction for future Aida development.

But later I came to idea (and was encouraged also by Stef and others) to
improve it and make this comparison public, therefore for all of you. I
then invited few Iliad and Seaside guys to help balance the comparison,
but unfortunately Seasiders were not willing to join, with their stated
reason that spreadsheet of comparative features is not the best way to
do such comparison. My answer is that a form of spreadsheet is a
simplest start of such comparison. This feature list and check marks can
be later a foundation for some more advanced comparison. We need to
start from somewhere and such checkmarked spreadsheet is easiest to
achieve in a shortest time.

So, now I'm inviting all of you to take a look at this Google Docs
spreadsheet and comment it. This way we will come at least one step
closer to so needed comparison:

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Atnb1W9vuq9ndGRTUFIzT3VON0lTQ3JxdlZYTUxhOFE&hl=en&authkey=CJva7-8L&pli=1#gid=0

Best regards
Janko


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Janko Mivšek
Aida/Web
Smalltalk Web Application Server
http://www.aidaweb.si
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what about unit-test coverage and integration-test?



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Hi Bernardo,

For Code statistics covering also tests (but not actual test coverage)
see already published stats:

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Atnb1W9vuq9ndG4wbUpxNXpKQnFZRlFyQXpHclhZa2c&hl=sl#gid=1

Best regards
Janko

S, Bernardo Ezequiel Contreras piše:

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Janko Mivšek
Aida/Web
Smalltalk Web Application Server
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2011/6/21 Janko Mivšek <[hidden email]>:
> Dear Smalltalkers,
>
> Few months ago I started a comparison of Aida, Seaside and Iliad web
> frameworks, with initial goal to check the strengths and weaknesses of
> Aida to draw a direction for future Aida development.

IMHO I think the VERY MOST important check box in the comparison is
the 'has book' one.  I.E. documentation!

Features without documentation is almost useless.  I say 'almost'
because someone can look at the code and they can ask questions in the
appropriate forum, but without documentation, a meaningful overview of
the framework is near impossible.

Elliot
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Hi guys,

The simplest way to contribute is to do a copy this spreadsheet and edit
it, so:

1. copy this spreadsheet on your own one, edit, then post link here:

   - login to http://docs.google.com with your google account
   - go to comparison spreadsheet [1]
   - File -> Create Copy
   - rename it, say Amir-Aida-Seaside-Iliad comparison
   - edit, add, rename data, add comments,
   - highlight changes by coloring them with Background color icon

2. We can also discuss here on the list each feature separately, more to
come.

I didn't wide open write access to spreadsheet, because you can imagine
what kind of changes we could expect. So, a bit more organized
contribution process is needed and above is IMO the simplest and most
effective.

Best regards
Janko

[1]
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Atnb1W9vuq9ndGRTUFIzT3VON0lTQ3JxdlZYTUxhOFE&hl=en&authkey=CJva7-8L&pli=1#gid=0

S, AA piše:
> Incidentally, is this sheet set to 'view only'?  I can't edit anything!
> _______________________________________________
> seaside mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>

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Janko Mivšek
Aida/Web
Smalltalk Web Application Server
http://www.aidaweb.si
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It is hard to expect from us others to merge into if even its author
admits that Seaside is now obsolete. That is, (from Avi words [1])
Seaside was advanced at the time it was designed, but now it lags behind
(as Ruby on Rails and others too), specially because of JavaScript/Ajax
advances. It is therefore better for Seaside to rather listen to its
author and do something. Or merge already done ideas from us others instead.

Common guys, Ajax is 5 years old, let the Seaside finally come with Ajax
support at least close to that in Iliad and Aida! Then study carefully
what Nicolas Petton and his group is working on Iliad and Jtalk. We are
doing so and incorporating but also extending his ideas in Aida. And on
the other way too, Nico is listening what we are doing. Why not you too?

The most popular Smalltalk web framework sleeping on the successes in
past is namely bad for all Smalltalk, that's why I'd like to open the
debate about the web support in Smalltalk in general.

On the web we have an opportunity, are we loosing it?

That's why I'm pushing this comparison and that's why I'd have and ESUG
talk titled "On the web frontiers with Smalltalk". And a panel is
planned too.

So, Seasiders, come to the web frontiers again by looking what
we others are doing, learn and adopt. And contribute some own innovative
ideas to the Smalltalk on the web again!

Best regards
Janko

[1]
http://www.stic.st/events/smalltalk-solutions-2011-abstracts/smalltalk-and-big-data/

S, Boris Popov, DeepCove Labs piše:
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Janko Mivšek
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Smalltalk Web Application Server
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On 6/22/11, Janko Mivšek <[hidden email]> wrote:
...
Hello Janko

Maybe a sample application which is combination of both your suggestions :-).


A kind of more elaborate ToDo list (cf. the Seaside example in the tutorial)

Features:
- Multi-user
- The users see a list of ToDo items and sees to whom they are assigned.
- In a chat area they can discuss about the items and reassign them accordingly.
- Some views/reports (current tasks, my tasks, finished tasks, task in
a particular month).

If you want more
- A wiki in addition
- A glossary (special terms in the reports are automatically
hyper-linked to a glossary entry)

Best regards
Hannes

P.S. I am sure that other people have better ideas.
I have no idea how much time this takes to implement in Aida/Web. In
Seaside it is quite an effort.
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Come on… We all know Janko is biased, and the comparison reflects that. But it is not like he wants to take over the world and kill Seaside. Well… maybe he wants, but there is still no reason to get upset. :-)

 

I have only tried Seaside, choosing that framework since it is the “default” one to use for Smalltalk web development. At least the comparison made me aware of Iliad, and had me rediscover Aida. But even if I now have more knowledge, I am more confused than ever.

 

We need some small reports, from various sources, comparing the strengths and weaknesses of the frameworks. Creating a collaborative to-do-list application might be a good reference case.

 

From what I understand, all three frameworks generate HTML using roughly the same techniques. But there are differences in how you compose a page from multiple components. The spreadsheet mentions “composition” vs. “rendering”. Getting a short discussion about these concepts is probably more helpful than a lot of (smaller) features compared.

 

It seems like everyone agrees on the importance of JavaScript. So explaining how the various frameworks handle this and how they will tackle it in the future, is important. It seems like Aida and Seaside takes different routes here. How does that matter for me as a user? Again, a more detailed discussion than “yes” / ”no” on a feature list, would be welcome.

 

It is also interesting to see how this thread discusses the future of Smalltalk web frameworks. As I understand this, we have Aida, Iliad and Seaside being the “server-centric” web frameworks. These frameworks generate the UI on the server, and use third-party JavaScript libraries to provide a richer UI experience at the client. Then we have Quicksilver and Jtalk which basically let you run your UI (Smalltalk) code in the client browser itself. These “client-centric” frameworks are experimental and not ready for production. As Janko mentions, integration between these two types of frameworks will be important.

Kind regards

Runar Jordahl

blog.epigent.com

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S, Runar Jordahl piše:

> Come on… We all know Janko is biased, and the comparison reflects that.
> But it is not like he wants to take over the world and kill Seaside.
> Well… maybe he wants, but there is still no reason to get upset. :-)

I'm biased by definition and I don't hide that :) See disclaimer right
in the header of comparison.

But let me explain my rationale: I started this comparison to assess the
strengths and weaknesses of Aida comparing to other two. And I need to
know Seaside and Iliad for competitive reasons which is a strong
motivator for learning other frameworks. End result is also that I can
actually compare them very well. But from my own perspective of course.
Which I stated upfront 100 times already: This comparison is Aida centric!

At the end all community have something out of that comparison even if
it is biased. Better than nothing, I like to add :) And I invited you to
balance it.

> I have only tried Seaside, choosing that framework since it is the
> “default” one to use for Smalltalk web development. At least the
> comparison made me aware of Iliad, and had me rediscover Aida. But even
> if I now have more knowledge, I am more confused than ever.
>
> We need some small reports, from various sources, comparing the
> strengths and weaknesses of the frameworks. Creating a collaborative
> to-do-list application might be a good reference case.

Agreed, someone from a distance should look at all three and study
matarials like this comparison and forthcoming examples. I expect
someone from academic world to step up ... ;)

About ToDo example, Hannes prepared nice requirements at
http://www.edupad.ch/tB6G15hqCx and I'm near done it in Aida. Expect in
a day or two the announcement. A live multiuser ToDo for you to look at
together with published code.

> From what I understand, all three frameworks generate HTML using roughly
> the same techniques. But there are differences in how you compose a page
> from multiple components. The spreadsheet mentions “composition” vs.
> “rendering”. Getting a short discussion about these concepts is probably
> more helpful than a lot of (smaller) features compared.

Good idea. Let we start about HTML generation in a separate thread.

> It seems like everyone agrees on the importance of JavaScript. So
> explaining how the various frameworks handle this and how they will
> tackle it in the future, is important. It seems like Aida and Seaside
> takes different routes here. How does that matter for me as a user?
> Again, a more detailed discussion than “yes” / ”no” on a feature list,
> would be welcome.

Discussing here the certain feature is probalby he best way to achive
better explanation of each feature or group of features. Let we start
with above one for now.

> It is also interesting to see how this thread discusses the future of
> Smalltalk web frameworks. As I understand this, we have Aida, Iliad and
> Seaside being the “server-centric” web frameworks. These frameworks
> generate the UI on the server, and use third-party JavaScript libraries
> to provide a richer UI experience at the client. Then we have
> Quicksilver and Jtalk which basically let you run your UI (Smalltalk)
> code in the client browser itself. These “client-centric” frameworks are
> experimental and not ready for production. As Janko mentions,
> integration between these two types of frameworks will be important.

Exactly. Jtalk is currently in full and very hot development, with a
goal to be included in Iliad soon. And in Aida too, I have great plans
with it. Not only on client-side: with Jtalk we can conect to wast
amount of node.js modules on server-side!

Best regards
Janko


> Kind regards
> Runar Jordahl
> blog.epigent.com <http://blog.epigent.com>


--
Janko Mivšek
Aida/Web
Smalltalk Web Application Server
http://www.aidaweb.si
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