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Janko Mivšek

Comparison of Aida/Web, Seaside and Iliad web frameworks

Dear Smalltalkers,

Few months ago I started a comparison of Aida, Seaside and Iliad web
frameworks, with initial goal to check the strengths and weaknesses of
Aida to draw a direction for future Aida development.

But later I came to idea (and was encouraged also by Stef and others) to
improve it and make this comparison public, therefore for all of you. I
then invited few Iliad and Seaside guys to help balance the comparison,
but unfortunately Seasiders were not willing to join, with their stated
reason that spreadsheet of comparative features is not the best way to
do such comparison. My answer is that a form of spreadsheet is a
simplest start of such comparison. This feature list and check marks can
be later a foundation for some more advanced comparison. We need to
start from somewhere and such checkmarked spreadsheet is easiest to
achieve in a shortest time.

So, now I'm inviting all of you to take a look at this Google Docs
spreadsheet and comment it. This way we will come at least one step
closer to so needed comparison:

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Atnb1W9vuq9ndGRTUFIzT3VON0lTQ3JxdlZYTUxhOFE&hl=en&authkey=CJva7-8L&pli=1#gid=0

Best regards
Janko

--
Janko Mivšek
Aida/Web
Smalltalk Web Application Server
http://www.aidaweb.si
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Travis Griggs-4

Re: Comparison of Aida/Web, Seaside and Iliad web frameworks

On Jun 21, 2011, at 1:19 PM, Janko Mivšek wrote:

> Dear Smalltalkers,
>
> Few months ago I started a comparison of Aida, Seaside and Iliad web
> frameworks, with initial goal to check the strengths and weaknesses of
> Aida to draw a direction for future Aida development.
>
> But later I came to idea (and was encouraged also by Stef and others) to
> improve it and make this comparison public, therefore for all of you. I
> then invited few Iliad and Seaside guys to help balance the comparison,
> but unfortunately Seasiders were not willing to join, with their stated
> reason that spreadsheet of comparative features is not the best way to
> do such comparison. My answer is that a form of spreadsheet is a
> simplest start of such comparison. This feature list and check marks can
> be later a foundation for some more advanced comparison. We need to
> start from somewhere and such checkmarked spreadsheet is easiest to
> achieve in a shortest time.
>
> So, now I'm inviting all of you to take a look at this Google Docs
> spreadsheet and comment it. This way we will come at least one step
> closer to so needed comparison:
>
> https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Atnb1W9vuq9ndGRTUFIzT3VON0lTQ3JxdlZYTUxhOFE&hl=en&authkey=CJva7-8L&pli=1#gid=0
>
> Best regards
> Janko

Very nice Janko. I agree that having something like this is very handy. I think with some polish and rounding out, it could be a nice thing.

--
Travis Griggs
Objologist
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak...

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Janko Mivšek

Re: Comparison of Aida/Web, Seaside and Iliad web frameworks

S, Travis Griggs piše:
...

>> https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Atnb1W9vuq9ndGRTUFIzT3VON0lTQ3JxdlZYTUxhOFE&hl=en&authkey=CJva7-8L&pli=1#gid=0

> Very nice Janko. I agree that having something like this is very handy. I think with some polish and rounding out, it could be a nice thing.

Thanks Travis. We need to have a clear picture where we are with web
frameworks to go further and be on the frontiers of web technologies
again. That was my initial goal of this comparison for Aida and I hope
with a bit polishing soon for Iliad and Seaside as well.

Best regards
Janko

--
Janko Mivšek
Aida/Web
Smalltalk Web Application Server
http://www.aidaweb.si
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Boris Popov, DeepCove Labs (SNN)

Re: Comparison of Aida/Web, Seaside and Iliad web frameworks

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2737880/screenshots/pharovsvisualworks.png

-Boris

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Janko Mivšek
Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2011 6:01 PM
To: 'VWNC'
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Comparison of Aida/Web, Seaside and Iliad web frameworks

S, Travis Griggs piše:

...

>> https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Atnb1W9vuq9ndGRTUFIzT3VON0lT

>> Q3JxdlZYTUxhOFE&hl=en&authkey=CJva7-8L&pli=1#gid=0

> Very nice Janko. I agree that having something like this is very handy. I think with some polish and rounding out, it could be a nice thing.

Thanks Travis. We need to have a clear picture where we are with web frameworks to go further and be on the frontiers of web technologies again. That was my initial goal of this comparison for Aida and I hope with a bit polishing soon for Iliad and Seaside as well.

Best regards

Janko

Janko Mivšek

Aida/Web

Smalltalk Web Application Server

http://www.aidaweb.si

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stephane ducasse-2

Re: Comparison of Aida/Web, Seaside and Iliad web frameworks

Thanks a lot boris. It is always interesting from a social engineering perspective to see what people think about you.
I was so fun and insulting me - what a high degree of respect and humor.
So far may be you are even be reading and using open-source software (seaside for example for your information I spent 4 years on that book but it probably
do not matter to you) and do not even feel guilty that you do not even reward people.
And you see the most funny aspect of it is that we will not change and I even feel encouraged.
You forget an important row: vision

and another one on "really cool videos" https://gforge.inria.fr/frs/shownotes.php?release_id=4982 ;)

For the action of Janko I support it even if I never programmed in Aida or Iliad. I will help to write a chapter on iliad and help another web frameworks too written in VisualAge
(unbelievable not even in your Smalltalk).
why (I could piss on them thinking that seaside is the only way) because you need diversity.
You see when you are strong you are not afraid by competition and we are not even in competition with VW or VA. If you do not realize
that we play another role (but a really important) in the ecosystem then read more and try to understand it.

Have fun because not every day are bright.

Stef

On Jun 22, 2011, at 4:52 AM, Boris Popov, DeepCove Labs wrote:

> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2737880/screenshots/pharovsvisualworks.png
>
> <image001.png>
>
> -Boris
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Janko Mivšek
> Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2011 6:01 PM
> To: 'VWNC'
> Subject: Re: [vwnc] Comparison of Aida/Web, Seaside and Iliad web frameworks
>
> S, Travis Griggs piše:
> ...
>
> >> https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Atnb1W9vuq9ndGRTUFIzT3VON0lT
> >> Q3JxdlZYTUxhOFE&hl=en&authkey=CJva7-8L&pli=1#gid=0
>
> > Very nice Janko. I agree that having something like this is very handy. I think with some polish and rounding out, it could be a nice thing.
>
> Thanks Travis. We need to have a clear picture where we are with web frameworks to go further and be on the frontiers of web technologies again. That was my initial goal of this comparison for Aida and I hope with a bit polishing soon for Iliad and Seaside as well.
>
> Best regards
> Janko
>
> --
> Janko Mivšek
> Aida/Web
> Smalltalk Web Application Server
> http://www.aidaweb.si
> _______________________________________________
> vwnc mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc
> _______________________________________________
> vwnc mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc

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stephane ducasse-2

Re: Comparison of Aida/Web, Seaside and Iliad web frameworks

In reply to this post by Janko Mivšek

On Jun 22, 2011, at 12:00 AM, Janko Mivšek wrote:

> S, Travis Griggs piše:
> ...
>
>>> https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Atnb1W9vuq9ndGRTUFIzT3VON0lTQ3JxdlZYTUxhOFE&hl=en&authkey=CJva7-8L&pli=1#gid=0
>
>> Very nice Janko. I agree that having something like this is very handy. I think with some polish and rounding out, it could be a nice thing.
>
> Thanks Travis. We need to have a clear picture where we are with web
> frameworks to go further and be on the frontiers of web technologies
> again. That was my initial goal of this comparison for Aida and I hope
> with a bit polishing soon for Iliad and Seaside as well.

please continue
this effort, Janko

Stef

>

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Ralph Johnson

Re: Comparison of Aida/Web, Seaside and Iliad web frameworks

In reply to this post by Boris Popov, DeepCove Labs (SNN)

Hey, Stephane, you are a feature! Features are good!

Though I must admit that I always thought that "single window" was a bug, not a feature. That is one of the things I have never really liked about Squeak/Pharo. i suppose that is the point of including it in the table.

The real point of this table is that tables make things look authoratative, but they can be biased. We all knew that. So, a more relevant post would be pointing out ways that the original table needed to be improved. Perhaps indicating missing rows, or rows that are not really important. I think the authors are trying to be fair, but we all see things from different points of view, so the more people who contribute, the more accurate it will be.

I'm not much of an expert on web frameworks, so the fact that the table looked good to me is not important. Real experts need to evaluate it.

-Ralph

On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 9:52 PM, Boris Popov, DeepCove Labs <[hidden email]> wrote:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2737880/screenshots/pharovsvisualworks.png

-Boris

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Janko Mivšek
Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2011 6:01 PM
To: 'VWNC'
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Comparison of Aida/Web, Seaside and Iliad web frameworks

S, Travis Griggs piše:
...

>> https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Atnb1W9vuq9ndGRTUFIzT3VON0lT

>> Q3JxdlZYTUxhOFE&hl=en&authkey=CJva7-8L&pli=1#gid=0

> Very nice Janko. I agree that having something like this is very handy. I think with some polish and rounding out, it could be a nice thing.

Thanks Travis. We need to have a clear picture where we are with web frameworks to go further and be on the frontiers of web technologies again. That was my initial goal of this comparison for Aida and I hope with a bit polishing soon for Iliad and Seaside as well.

Best regards
Janko

--
Janko Mivšek
Aida/Web
Smalltalk Web Application Server

http://www.aidaweb.si
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stephane ducasse-2

Re: Comparison of Aida/Web, Seaside and Iliad web frameworks

In reply to this post by Boris Popov, DeepCove Labs (SNN)

Hi boris

may be I reacted too much, probably :).

But you can ask yourselves why this is easier to attack even for fun something
than to build it and Janko is trying to build something and we should help him.

Similarly with Pharo we are creating a space where people can create wealth.

A question I always ask myself: would seaside exist without squeak being there at that time.

Stef

On Jun 22, 2011, at 4:52 AM, Boris Popov, DeepCove Labs wrote:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2737880/screenshots/pharovsvisualworks.png

<image001.png>

-Boris

-----Original Message-----

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Janko Mivšek

Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2011 6:01 PM

To: 'VWNC'

Subject: Re: [vwnc] Comparison of Aida/Web, Seaside and Iliad web frameworks

S, Travis Griggs piše:

...

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Atnb1W9vuq9ndGRTUFIzT3VON0lT

Q3JxdlZYTUxhOFE&hl=en&authkey=CJva7-8L&pli=1#gid=0

Very nice Janko. I agree that having something like this is very handy. I think with some polish and rounding out, it could be a nice thing.

Thanks Travis. We need to have a clear picture where we are with web frameworks to go further and be on the frontiers of web technologies again. That was my initial goal of this comparison for Aida and I hope with a bit polishing soon for Iliad and Seaside as well.

Best regards

Janko

--

Janko Mivšek

Aida/Web

Smalltalk Web Application Server

http://www.aidaweb.si

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stephane ducasse-2

Re: Comparison of Aida/Web, Seaside and Iliad web frameworks

In reply to this post by Ralph Johnson

On Jun 22, 2011, at 10:00 AM, Ralph Johnson wrote:

> Hey, Stephane, you are a feature! Features are good!

Yes this is cool
>
> Though I must admit that I always thought that "single window" was a bug, not a feature.

Me too.

> That is one of the things I have never really liked about Squeak/Pharo. i suppose that is the point of including it in the table.

Yes
>
> The real point of this table is that tables make things look authoratative, but they can be biased. We all knew that.

exactly.

> So, a more relevant post would be pointing out ways that the original table needed to be improved. Perhaps indicating missing rows, or rows that are not really important. I think the authors are trying to be fair, but we all see things from different points of view, so the more people who contribute, the more accurate it will be.
>
> I'm not much of an expert on web frameworks, so the fact that the table looked good to me is not important. Real experts need to evaluate it.

indeed. but people should start somewhere and this is what janko is doing.

>
> -Ralph
>
> On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 9:52 PM, Boris Popov, DeepCove Labs <[hidden email]> wrote:
> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2737880/screenshots/pharovsvisualworks.png
>
>
>
> <image001.png>
>
>
>
> -Boris
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Janko Mivšek
> Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2011 6:01 PM
> To: 'VWNC'
> Subject: Re: [vwnc] Comparison of Aida/Web, Seaside and Iliad web frameworks
>
>
>
> S, Travis Griggs piše:
>
> ...
>
>
>
> >> https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Atnb1W9vuq9ndGRTUFIzT3VON0lT
>
> >> Q3JxdlZYTUxhOFE&hl=en&authkey=CJva7-8L&pli=1#gid=0
>
>
>
> > Very nice Janko. I agree that having something like this is very handy. I think with some polish and rounding out, it could be a nice thing.
>
>
>
> Thanks Travis. We need to have a clear picture where we are with web frameworks to go further and be on the frontiers of web technologies again. That was my initial goal of this comparison for Aida and I hope with a bit polishing soon for Iliad and Seaside as well.
>
>
>
> Best regards
>
> Janko
>
>
>
> --
>
> Janko Mivšek
>
> Aida/Web
>
> Smalltalk Web Application Server
>
> http://www.aidaweb.si
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> vwnc mailing list
>
> [hidden email]
>
> http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
> http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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Marc Hanisch

Re: [Help-smalltalk] Comparison of Aida/Web, Seaside and Iliad web frameworks

In reply to this post by Janko Mivšek

2011/6/21 Janko Mivšek <[hidden email]>:

Thank you Janko,
it's a perfect overview for beginners (like me ;-)) not knowing with
which framework to start. Didn't knew that Aida has so much features!

Best regards,
Marc

--
★ lernu Esperanton! Esperanto - la lingvo internacia - www.esperanto.net ★

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Andres Valloud-6

Re: Comparison of Aida/Web, Seaside and Iliad web frameworks

In reply to this post by Boris Popov, DeepCove Labs (SNN)

In my opinion, these types of comparisons reduce the community to "if
you're not a part of Cool(TM), you're part of the problem". This point
of view is not productive in the long term. Without diversity, we're
just inviting a single evolutionary Cool(TM) deficiency to wipe us out
in a blink. Also, enough of "Cool(TM)":
http://blogten.blogspot.com/2011/06/and-this-doesnt-just-apply-to-phones.html.

On 6/21/2011 7:52 PM, Boris Popov, DeepCove Labs wrote:

> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2737880/screenshots/pharovsvisualworks.png
>
> -Boris
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of Janko Mivšek
> Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2011 6:01 PM
> To: 'VWNC'
> Subject: Re: [vwnc] Comparison of Aida/Web, Seaside and Iliad web frameworks
>
> S, Travis Griggs piše:
>
> ...
>
> >> https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Atnb1W9vuq9ndGRTUFIzT3VON0lT
>
> >> Q3JxdlZYTUxhOFE&hl=en&authkey=CJva7-8L&pli=1#gid=0
>
> > Very nice Janko. I agree that having something like this is very
> handy. I think with some polish and rounding out, it could be a nice thing.
>
> Thanks Travis. We need to have a clear picture where we are with web
> frameworks to go further and be on the frontiers of web technologies
> again. That was my initial goal of this comparison for Aida and I hope
> with a bit polishing soon for Iliad and Seaside as well.
>
> Best regards
>
> Janko
>
> --
>
> Janko Mivšek
>
> Aida/Web
>
> Smalltalk Web Application Server
>
> http://www.aidaweb.si
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> vwnc mailing list
>
> [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>
> http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> vwnc mailing list
> [hidden email]
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jarober

Re: Comparison of Aida/Web, Seaside and Iliad web frameworks

Well... not so much. Comparisons aren't always about better/worse - sometimes - and this effort could go that way - illustrate which tool is best for a particular task. None of the web frameworks compared in this effort are the universal answers to all web tasks, and some of them are better in than others in some areas. As well, some of them appeal to different people for different reasons, and comparisons help people make choices.

On Jul 1, 2011, at 5:09 PM, Andres Valloud wrote:

> In my opinion, these types of comparisons reduce the community to "if
> you're not a part of Cool(TM), you're part of the problem". This point
> of view is not productive in the long term. Without diversity, we're
> just inviting a single evolutionary Cool(TM) deficiency to wipe us out
> in a blink. Also, enough of "Cool(TM)":
> http://blogten.blogspot.com/2011/06/and-this-doesnt-just-apply-to-phones.html.
>
> On 6/21/2011 7:52 PM, Boris Popov, DeepCove Labs wrote:
>> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2737880/screenshots/pharovsvisualworks.png
>>
>> -Boris
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
>> Behalf Of Janko Mivšek
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2011 6:01 PM
>> To: 'VWNC'
>> Subject: Re: [vwnc] Comparison of Aida/Web, Seaside and Iliad web frameworks
>>
>> S, Travis Griggs piše:
>>
>> ...
>>
>>>> https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Atnb1W9vuq9ndGRTUFIzT3VON0lT
>>
>>>> Q3JxdlZYTUxhOFE&hl=en&authkey=CJva7-8L&pli=1#gid=0
>>
>>> Very nice Janko. I agree that having something like this is very
>> handy. I think with some polish and rounding out, it could be a nice thing.
>>
>> Thanks Travis. We need to have a clear picture where we are with web
>> frameworks to go further and be on the frontiers of web technologies
>> again. That was my initial goal of this comparison for Aida and I hope
>> with a bit polishing soon for Iliad and Seaside as well.
>>
>> Best regards
>>
>> Janko
>>
>> --
>>
>> Janko Mivšek
>>
>> Aida/Web
>>
>> Smalltalk Web Application Server
>>
>> http://www.aidaweb.si
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> vwnc mailing list
>>
>> [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>
>> http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> vwnc mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
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James Robertson
http://www.jarober.com
[hidden email]

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Andres Valloud-6

Re: Comparison of Aida/Web, Seaside and Iliad web frameworks

On 7/1/2011 3:58 PM, James Robertson wrote:
> Well... not so much. Comparisons aren't always about better/worse -
> sometimes - and this effort could go that way - illustrate which tool
> is best for a particular task.

I guess that explains the line items for

* Contributor Photos Online
* Considered Cool
* Stephane Ducasse

QED... :).

Andres.
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jarober

Re: Comparison of Aida/Web, Seaside and Iliad web frameworks

Which is why I said <could> rather than <will>. At the same time, having contributor photos online, as a way of giving credit, is a good thing

On Jul 1, 2011, at 7:06 PM, Andres Valloud wrote:

> On 7/1/2011 3:58 PM, James Robertson wrote:
>> Well... not so much. Comparisons aren't always about better/worse -
>> sometimes - and this effort could go that way - illustrate which tool
>> is best for a particular task.
>
> I guess that explains the line items for
>
> * Contributor Photos Online
> * Considered Cool
> * Stephane Ducasse
>
> QED... :).
>
> Andres.
> _______________________________________________
> vwnc mailing list
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James Robertson
http://www.jarober.com
[hidden email]

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stephane ducasse-2

Re: Comparison of Aida/Web, Seaside and Iliad web frameworks

And often having stef with you is better too

Stef

> Which is why I said <could> rather than <will>. At the same time, having contributor photos online, as a way of giving credit, is a good thing
>
> On Jul 1, 2011, at 7:06 PM, Andres Valloud wrote:
>
>> On 7/1/2011 3:58 PM, James Robertson wrote:
>>> Well... not so much. Comparisons aren't always about better/worse -
>>> sometimes - and this effort could go that way - illustrate which tool
>>> is best for a particular task.
>>
>> I guess that explains the line items for
>>
>> * Contributor Photos Online
>> * Considered Cool
>> * Stephane Ducasse
>>
>> QED... :).
>>
>> Andres.
>> _______________________________________________
>> vwnc mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc
>
> James Robertson
> http://www.jarober.com
> [hidden email]
>
>
>
>
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