Cross platform key modifiers
Locked
 
|
Not sure what past history we inherited, but I am questioning the semantics of our key modifiers. My understanding is that the following is industry standard... OSX Windows Linux option alt alt cmd ctrl ctrl with Copy being the simplest example of this... cmd-c ctrl-c ctrl-c Supporting this view: * "option" and "alternative" are synonyms * "command" and "control" have similar meaning (e.g. in the army if you command someone, you control them) * Microsoft say so (https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/970299) * Apple say so (https://support.apple.com/kb/PH18812?locale=en_US) and indeed marks its keyboards with "alt" and "option" on the same key (http://www.apple.com/au/keyboard/) So examining this with KMLog setDebug.Transcript open. On OSX Pharo 50044 I get... option+arrowLeft --> [keystroke '<Opt-left>'] cmd+arrowLeft --> [keystroke '<Cmd-left>'] ctrl+arrowLeft --> OS changes screens but I am told that Windows gives... alt+arrowLeft --> [keystroke '<Cmd-left>'] ctrl+arrowLeft --> [keystroke '<Ctrl-left>'] when I believe Windows should be... alt+arrowLeft --> [keystroke '<Opt-left>'] ctrl+arrowLeft --> [keystroke '<Cmd-left>'] Part of the issue I think is that our keystroke mapping should be more abstract. When I was using Pharo on Windows, sometimes it felt like a second class citizen wrt key mappings, mapping ctrl-c to an apple-named <cmd-c>. Perhaps what we should see is: OSX... option+arrowLeft --> [keystroke '<Meta-left>'] cmd+arrowLeft --> [keystroke '<Hotkey-left>'] Windows... alt+arrowLeft --> [keystroke '<Meta-left>'] ctrl+arrowLeft --> [keystroke '<Hotkey-left>'] Otherwise there will always be the tension on windows that ctrl-c should generate [<keystroke '<Ctrl-c>] and we end up with definitions repetitively formed like... PharoShortcuts>>acceptShortcut ^ $s ctrl win | $s ctrl unix | $s command mac which opens the door for inconsistencies. We should only need to do something like... PharoShortcuts>>acceptShortcut ^ $s hotkey and leave it to the platform default or user preference the define what the hotkey actually is. A status line in the Keymap Browser could display which actual real keys map to <Hotkey> and <Meta>. What are you thoughts? cheers -ben |
Re: Cross platform key modifiers
|
|
Hi ben,
2015-05-22 17:28 GMT+02:00 Ben Coman <[hidden email]>:
Yes, this is what I expected too. And I thought this is for what KMCommandModifier is used for. With that, I would expect "Character arrowLeft command" maps to Ctrl+Left for windows/linux Meta+Left for Mac (If Meta is the Command-Key on a Mac keyboard).
Isn't OSXs Command-key like MS-Windows "Window" or Linux "Meta" -key?
|
|
|
> (If Meta is the Command-Key on a Mac keyboard). No. On a Mac the "command" key is "Cmd" -- hence why I think we should not call it "command" internally, to help maintain platform independent semantics. >> No. I know they both have nice icons, but they are not the same. You don't use the windows key to copy text. > |
Re: Cross platform key modifiers
|
|
2015-05-23 9:52 GMT+02:00 Ben Coman <[hidden email]>:
Yes and I thought this was the reason to define one
Command-Modifier (Ctrl on Windows, because you use Ctrl+C for copy,
Command on Mac, because you use Cmd+C for copy on a Mac) and map. (and we are using "Command" instead of a platform independent name, because many squeak-keyshortcuts hadits history from the old first implementation for a mac. And users are used to this semantics.
Yes, exactly, they are the same keys but used for different purposes on each platform. Windows uses the ctrl-key for copy/paste, the alt-key for the menu bar, the Windows/Meta key for Desktop and Shell shortcuts. Mac uses the Meta/Command key copy/paste. -> I think we can not really use a platform independent schema, if the platform reserved the keys for its own purpose. |
Re: Cross platform key modifiers
|
Administrator
|
In reply to this post by Nicolai Hess
Great OP! We should get this straight for sure...
That makes sense to me. "command" seems like it may be the best abstract term. Hotkey already has a meaning (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_shortcut), and it seems meta is used inconsistently by the platforms - i.e. Mac uses it for commands, but Windows uses ctrl instead. IIRC we already treat #option and #alt as synonyms...
Cheers,
Sean |
Re: Cross platform key modifiers
|
|
Camillo introduced a while ago the meta modifier:
$a meta $z meta shift meta is sensitive to the current environment and is equivalent to what you where describing above: - command in mac - control in windows/unix What should be done is to use it in the system :). Guille El lun., 25 de may. de 2015 a la(s) 2:16 p. m., Sean P. DeNigris <[hidden email]> escribió: Great OP! We should get this straight for sure... |
Re: Cross platform key modifiers
|
|
Yes meta key come from Lisp Machine:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meta_key I guess we should have a look how Emacs solve this keybinding issue regarding multiple platforms. On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 9:29 AM, Guillermo Polito <[hidden email]> wrote: > Camillo introduced a while ago the meta modifier: > > $a meta > > $z meta shift > > meta is sensitive to the current environment and is equivalent to what you > where describing above: > - command in mac > - control in windows/unix > > What should be done is to use it in the system :). > > Guille > > El lun., 25 de may. de 2015 a la(s) 2:16 p. m., Sean P. DeNigris > <[hidden email]> escribió: >> >> Great OP! We should get this straight for sure... >> >> >> Nicolai Hess wrote >> > Yes, this is what I expected too. >> > ... >> > With that, I would expect "Character arrowLeft command" maps to >> > Ctrl+Left for windows/linux >> > Meta+Left for Mac (If Meta is the Command-Key on a Mac keyboard). >> >> That makes sense to me. "command" seems like it may be the best abstract >> term. Hotkey already has a meaning >> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_shortcut), and it seems meta is >> used >> inconsistently by the platforms - i.e. Mac uses it for commands, but >> Windows >> uses ctrl instead. IIRC we already treat #option and #alt as synonyms... >> >> >> >> ----- >> Cheers, >> Sean >> -- >> View this message in context: >> http://forum.world.st/Cross-platform-key-modifiers-tp4828113p4828461.html >> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at >> Nabble.com. >> > -- Serge Stinckwich UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC) Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/ |
Re: Cross platform key modifiers
|
|
In reply to this post by Guillermo Polito
2015-05-27 9:29 GMT+02:00 Guillermo Polito <[hidden email]>:
Then there is something I don't understand or I don't do it right :) a shortcut defined like: $b meta shift never matches for me (on windows). But $b ctrl shift $b command shift works. (the last on matches on alt+shift+b, but defining a keyshortcut as $b alt shift again does not work).
|
Re: Cross platform key modifiers
|
Administrator
|
In reply to this post by SergeStinckwich
For one thing, Emacs gives the underlying platform the finger and institutes the same set of unintelligible keybindings regardless of platform conventions ;)
Cheers,
Sean |
Re: Cross platform key modifiers
|
|
In reply to this post by SergeStinckwich
Serge Stinckwich <[hidden email]> writes: > I guess we should have a look how Emacs solve this keybinding issue > regarding multiple platforms. Emacs works really well in this regard and should be used as a reference. If you have any specific question, I can have a look. -- Damien Cassou http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st "Success is the ability to go from one failure to another without losing enthusiasm." --Winston Churchill |
Re: Cross platform key modifiers
|
|
On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 3:56 PM, Damien Cassou <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Serge Stinckwich <[hidden email]> writes: > >> I guess we should have a look how Emacs solve this keybinding issue >> regarding multiple platforms. > > Emacs works really well in this regard and should be used as a > reference. If you have any specific question, I can have a look. :-) -- Serge Stinckwich UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC) Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/ |
|
|
In reply to this post by Damien Cassou-2
I want cmd-k damien. and cmd-A and cmd-E
:) Le 27/5/15 15:56, Damien Cassou a écrit : > Serge Stinckwich <[hidden email]> writes: > >> I guess we should have a look how Emacs solve this keybinding issue >> regarding multiple platforms. > Emacs works really well in this regard and should be used as a > reference. If you have any specific question, I can have a look. > |
| Free forum by Nabble | Edit this page |