Crypt ... Libraries ...

> Pharo developers are few and limited. They are trying to do all of their
> best on Pharo. We know this an important package but perhaps they have more
> important things to do. Pharo is not even in a beta of first milestone. This
> can be planned in a future milestone.

Hmmm. How many manyears were invested in Squeak? 1000, 2000?

You have removed lots of code due to "license problems". See R.A. Harmon code. What a pitty to throw away code ...

Do you really think, he really cares about his former code contribution to a system, which from the beginning was free and open?

Don't you think, every jugde would confirm, that such code contributions were made in the sense of "giveaways"?

I think you don't have a real understanding of what you have destroyed now.

Having rewritten array/colletions/streams code ... a bit shorter code now, because of traits. Who really cares?

You want to build a commercial platform to make money. Supported. Yes.

Didn't you all Smalltalk Developers notice, that even Dolphin was close to give up? They hat to find their new business model. And they also have a very sophisticated *free* version.

GNU Smalltalk 3.0 ... fine thing, free, can run seaside, pier, .... what do i need more? Free!

Do you really hope to get one cent for supporting a free smalltalk platform?

I really appreciate your effords. There are things, that had to be done on Squeak. Traits, 5th implemention of closures ...

But ... you haven't included the old code contributors at Viewpoint Research Institute, MIT (Scratch), HPI Berlin.

Where are your plans to give back your code changes to squeak/scratch community? No. Very egoistic, IMHO.

Where is the "soft refactoring" without destroying anything ...? At the moment ... i see some developments with pleasure, others are catastrophic ...

Eliot writing the 10th implementation of a squeak jitter. Fine. Every profesional company uses LLVM. Apple e.g.

I wanted to know, how fast a programming language with jitter could be done. It took me about 2 weeks ...LL(1) grammar, LLVM ... works like a charm on Intel, ARM, PPC ... and really fast! Other platforms to be tested. Of cause, lots of things to be done .. debugging ... profiling ... no classbrowser ... but i can run older squeak code with morphic. 80%/20% problem ;-) Or rather 90/10? Dunnow, i stopped the development. Was an experiment.

Will Eliots jitter run on different processor architectures? No! 386 machine code only. So - no real portability! Who really cares that stuff then? Ever heard of the giant chinese market? They use MIPS clone 32+64Bit processors with Linux now. Everywhere. China can't officially use Intel, because of too much power consumption. I've been there several times. MIPS, everywhere. In China and Japan you find lots of people doing squeak stuff. Potential code contributors code developers for Pharo, partners!

Morphic code .. from SELF Programming Language development ... then ported to squeak, then to Javascript. Fine. ETOYS on TOP.

Where is my loved ETOYS? The only reason to use Squeak or Pharo! Education was and is the domain of Squeak. Nothing else.

I asked Frank Lesser for EToys / Morphic on top of his Smalltalk. Matured, blindingly fast, Jitter written in Assembler. Now the base for DNG. Not a great problem, he meant, he had it once ported for testing purposes.

If i really needed a sophisticated smalltalk to start new projects ... what do you think, what i would take? Smalltalk for educational purposes, e.g.? I have free choice. But no ETOYS, anywhere. Children really love EToys. It's a marvelous software package for educational purposes.

Many companies are caught in their own jail of huge masses of GUI code. They can't go with other smalltalks. Will they ever change to a "supported Pharo"? I think: No.

Morphic ... no MVC, no MVP. What has happened to Tweak code? ETOYS was ported to that GUI. That code was quite ok. Why haven't the code autors spent that code for Squeak/Pharo?

So please ... don't tell me you haven't enough hands at the moment. Do the right things, not just some few things right, beautifying GUI, implemeting the 5th version of closures and well ... traits.
 
Do 'crowdsourceing', invite people to contribute, learn community organizing first. Give them a reason to contribute. Give them a future, a business modell to participate.

Your egoistic path to make a commercial supported free smalltalk ... good idea, but you are lightyears far from that.

Leo Penta wrote a nice book about that 'crowdsourceing' stuff, or reread "Eric Raymond - Cathedral and the basaar" again and again and again. *PARTICIPATION* Bring people to participate your business model.

LEARN from the mistakes, many, many good programmers did. See TWEAK bad fate. Dead development process. Good sourcecode, lost in space ... like many squeak packages.

*Defective development process*. I posted that as issue, it was deleted by someone not really understanding, what i meant.

thanx for understanding.

cheers, Guido Stepken


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I use Pharo for commercial work TODAY!

Thank you Pharo team!

--David Mitchell

On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 7:12 AM, stepken <[hidden email]> wrote:
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On May 26, 2009, at 3:45 PM, David Mitchell wrote:

> I use Pharo for commercial work TODAY!

This is cool.
Can you tell us a bit more :)

> Thank you Pharo team!

Stef


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Sorry folks, can't help myself. Reactions below....

On May 26, 2009, at 6:12 AM, stepken wrote:

So anytime you want to, you can just decide what someone else's  
intention for their code contribution was and do what you want? Each  
person owns his own code, and Pharo has to be careful and have actual  
permission to use the code they distribute.


>
> Don't you think, every jugde would confirm, that such code  
> contributions were made in the sense of "giveaways"?

Are you going to pay for the lawyers necessary to defend such an  
untenable argument?

>
> I think you don't have a real understanding of what you have  
> destroyed now.
>
> Having rewritten array/colletions/streams code ... a bit shorter  
> code now, because of traits. Who really cares?

People write a lot of code because they desire to; what is the point  
of Traits if you never use it in your system?

>
> You want to build a commercial platform to make money. Supported. Yes.

I have paid (and still am) several squeak/pharo developers for support  
on these systems. Dolphin is windows only, which kills it for a lot of  
people.

>
> Didn't you all Smalltalk Developers notice, that even Dolphin was  
> close to give up? They hat to find their new business model. And  
> they also have a very sophisticated *free* version.
>
> GNU Smalltalk 3.0 ... fine thing, free, can run seaside, pier, ....  
> what do i need more? Free!

No, that is GPL, which has plenty of freedom restrictions.

>
> Do you really hope to get one cent for supporting a free smalltalk  
> platform?
>

Absolutely they will.

> I really appreciate your effords. There are things, that had to be  
> done on Squeak. Traits, 5th implemention of closures ...

How many implementations of closures? what are you talking about? Do  
you take each individual person who had a project on this platform  
assume that was the will of the community?

>
> But ... you haven't included the old code contributors at Viewpoint  
> Research Institute, MIT (Scratch), HPI Berlin.

Pharo has some very specific goals for a clean, well factored, test-
driven base Smalltalk system. I suggest you take that into account;  
what you want is a giant unmaintainable mess of spaghetti.

>
> Where are your plans to give back your code changes to squeak/
> scratch community? No. Very egoistic, IMHO.

All the code is free and available, and there is no stopping of squeak/
scratch/other community members reintegrating anything they like.

>
> Where is the "soft refactoring" without destroying anything ...? At  
> the moment ... i see some developments with pleasure, others are  
> catastrophic ...
>
> Eliot writing the 10th implementation of a squeak jitter. Fine.  
> Every profesional company uses LLVM. Apple e.g.

Again, what are you talking about? I've never heard of 9 previous jit  
implementations. In one sentence you complain that Pharo throws away  
code and doesn't use stuff from every other squeak based system, and  
then you want the whole system re-implemented on LLVM? Wow.

>
> I wanted to know, how fast a programming language with jitter could  
> be done. It took me about 2 weeks ...LL(1) grammar, LLVM ... works  
> like a charm on Intel, ARM, PPC ... and really fast! Other platforms  
> to be tested. Of cause, lots of things to be done .. debugging ...  
> profiling ... no classbrowser ... but i can run older squeak code  
> with morphic. 80%/20% problem ;-) Or rather 90/10? Dunnow, i stopped  
> the development. Was an experiment.
>

Interesting... where is the code? is it free? why didn't you finish  
it? Maybe Eliot or someone else could benefit from it, but not now.

> Will Eliots jitter run on different processor architectures? No! 386  
> machine code only. So - no real portability! Who really cares that  
> stuff then? Ever heard of the giant chinese market? They use MIPS  
> clone 32+64Bit processors with Linux now. Everywhere. China can't  
> officially use Intel, because of too much power consumption. I've  
> been there several times. MIPS, everywhere. In China and Japan you  
> find lots of people doing squeak stuff. Potential code contributors  
> code developers for Pharo, partners!

It all comes back to time and money. Eliot is being paid by Qwaq, and  
they are generously allowing all that work to go back to the  
community. Who are you funding to do work? Or what work are you  
contributing?

>
> Morphic code .. from SELF Programming Language development ... then  
> ported to squeak, then to Javascript. Fine. ETOYS on TOP.
>
> Where is my loved ETOYS? The only reason to use Squeak or Pharo!  
> Education was and is the domain of Squeak. Nothing else.

Squeakland.org -
OLPC Project (ever hear of it?)

First you have to be able to remove Morphic from it's death grip on  
the system and have packages all the way down. Then start integrating  
new GUI frameworks.

>
> So please ... don't tell me you haven't enough hands at the moment.  
> Do the right things, not just some few things right, beautifying  
> GUI, implemeting the 5th version of closures and well ... traits.

It sounds like you need to start you own Smalltalk system, based on  
LLVM, or your own super fast jitter that you wrote in two weeks. Then  
you can crowdsource all you want. Lot's of people are participating  
and things are going swimmingly.


The tone of your emails are offensive and you cast aspersion on  
everyone working on the Pharo project. If you don't like it, don't  
read the list and don't use it.


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On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 7:12 AM, stepken <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Pharo developers are few and limited. They are trying to do all of their
>> best on Pharo. We know this an important package but perhaps they have more
>> important things to do. Pharo is not even in a beta of first milestone. This
>> can be planned in a future milestone.
>
> Hmmm. How many manyears were invested in Squeak? 1000, 2000?
>
> You have removed lots of code due to "license problems". See R.A. Harmon code. What a pitty to throw away code ...
>

Maybe for you license is just a bunch of words without meaning,
somethink like the EULAs that windows has popularized to not read and
click "Accept". For others, the license is the main factor to choose
to use a technology. Don't assume that everyone just use everything
that is "free as in beer, shareware, freeware, trial" and downloadable
from the internet for professional (in terms of money paid by a
client, not quality of code produced) work.

> Do you really think, he really cares about his former code contribution to a system, which from the beginning was free and open?
>
> Don't you think, every jugde would confirm, that such code contributions were made in the sense of "giveaways"?
>

Big assumption.

> I think you don't have a real understanding of what you have destroyed now.
>
Of course they have. It is stated in the about page of the pharo
project, in the manifesto:

Better for the better
Beauty to learn from
*Not backward compatible*
Clean, lean and fast
Towards a new generation of Smalltalk

It requires a big courage to break with the past. That is the reason
that is having so big complains and hurras.
I personally, want a clean, core smalltalk that I can load *only* the
packages from a *unique* central repository and use
that image generated to deploy my apps. That is not currently possible
with squeak, because of squeakmap, squeaksource, monticello
repositories, sar, etc and because squeak comes loaded with everything
and the kitchen sink.

> Having rewritten array/colletions/streams code ... a bit shorter code now, because of traits. Who really cares?
>

That require a more technical discussion before making assertions of
utility. Check the squeak list for several discussions

> You want to build a commercial platform to make money. Supported. Yes.
>
> Didn't you all Smalltalk Developers notice, that even Dolphin was close to give up? They hat to find their new business model. And they also have a very sophisticated *free* version.
>

Again, we don't just a "free as beer" version, we want a "free as in freedom".

> GNU Smalltalk 3.0 ... fine thing, free, can run seaside, pier, .... what do i need more? Free!
>

The license used by gnu smalltalk is tricky for me and in the end, if
I have to choose between MIT or GPL or LGPL, I choose MIT.

> Do you really hope to get one cent for supporting a free smalltalk platform?
>

The money is not a goal of the pharo project and if as a consecuence
the authors can get money from support, that is very good.
But, to me, that is no a problem. Same applies for red hat, linux,
tomcat, jboss, postgres. The have the right to capitalize the
technology. That is not in detrimental of the project.

> I really appreciate your effords. There are things, that had to be done on Squeak. Traits, 5th implemention of closures ...
>
> But ... you haven't included the old code contributors at Viewpoint Research Institute, MIT (Scratch), HPI Berlin.
>
> Where are your plans to give back your code changes to squeak/scratch community? No. Very egoistic, IMHO.
>

A fork is not to contribute back to the original project. Fork means
that they are aparting themselves to reach other goals.
If by luck or intentional or unintentional effort, the code can be
used for the original project, that's good, but not a goal of the
forkers.
And then, if the fork results in a better product as compared, in
practical terms, with the original project, the the people will be
using the new project more than the original and new code will be
written for the new project. But, that is very long in the future to
know.
Maybe pharo is doomed to fail, but untild then you have no right to
bash the personal efforts of people and the choices they made.
If you don't want to participate, fine. If you want to participate,
fine. No choice is better than the other.




> Where is the "soft refactoring" without destroying anything ...? At the moment ... i see some developments with pleasure, others are catastrophic ...
>
> Eliot writing the 10th implementation of a squeak jitter. Fine. Every profesional company uses LLVM. Apple e.g.
>
That is his problem. He has the technical ability, that I will never
have, and the same applies to you. If he chose to start that effort,
he must have reasoned very well, and with better arguments that you
and me could give, that it worth the effort.

> I wanted to know, how fast a programming language with jitter could be done. It took me about 2 weeks ...LL(1) grammar, LLVM ... works like a charm on Intel, ARM, PPC ... and really fast! Other platforms to be tested. Of cause, lots of things to be done .. debugging ... profiling ... no classbrowser ... but i can run older squeak code with morphic. 80%/20% problem ;-) Or rather 90/10? Dunnow, i stopped the development. Was an experiment.
>

Good for you, but it only was for you. Eliot's effort will serve a lot
more people, even as only for i386 platform at the beginning.

> Will Eliots jitter run on different processor architectures? No! 386 machine code only. So - no real portability! Who really cares that stuff then? Ever heard of the giant chinese market? They use MIPS clone 32+64Bit processors with Linux now. Everywhere. China can't officially use Intel, because of too much power consumption. I've been there several times. MIPS, everywhere. In China and Japan you find lots of people doing squeak stuff. Potential code contributors code developers for Pharo, partners!
>
> Morphic code .. from SELF Programming Language development ... then ported to squeak, then to Javascript. Fine. ETOYS on TOP.
>
> Where is my loved ETOYS? The only reason to use Squeak or Pharo! Education was and is the domain of Squeak. Nothing else.
>
> I asked Frank Lesser for EToys / Morphic on top of his Smalltalk. Matured, blindingly fast, Jitter written in Assembler. Now the base for DNG. Not a great problem, he meant, he had it once ported for testing purposes.
>> If i really needed a sophisticated smalltalk to start new projects ... what do you think, what i would take? Smalltalk for educational purposes, e.g.? I have free choice. But no ETOYS, anywhere. Children really love EToys. It's a marvelous software package for educational purposes.
>

That is an goal that is to be resolved by putting more software from a
central repository in a clean, solid, scriptable core image.

> Many companies are caught in their own jail of huge masses of GUI code. They can't go with other smalltalks. Will they ever change to a "supported Pharo"? I think: No.
>
> Morphic ... no MVC, no MVP. What has happened to Tweak code? ETOYS was ported to that GUI. That code was quite ok. Why haven't the code autors spent that code for Squeak/Pharo?
>
> So please ... don't tell me you haven't enough hands at the moment. Do the right things, not just some few things right, beautifying GUI, implemeting the 5th version of closures and well ... traits.
>

Well, some weeks ago we have the smalltalk blog guy screaming in the
seaside list. At the end, no code or "hands" to solve all the thing
"he" saw as imperfections in seaside. This mail appears to me that
that the pharo list has now the same nemesis.

> Do 'crowdsourceing', invite people to contribute, learn community organizing first. Give them a reason to contribute. Give them a future, a business modell to participate.
>

The reasons have many times been exposed. Read the squeak list.

> Your egoistic path to make a commercial supported free smalltalk ... good idea, but you are lightyears far from that.
>

I think that all the people here knows that pharo has a long path to
walk before this happens, but a long journey begins with the first
step.

> Leo Penta wrote a nice book about that 'crowdsourceing' stuff, or reread "Eric Raymond - Cathedral and the basaar" again and again and again. *PARTICIPATION* Bring people to participate your business model.
>

They won't be begging for support. They have a goal, and working and
steady releases of working code that give the impresion that the
effort will be successful. If by looking in their results you are
motivated to participate, you're welcome. If you aren't motivated,
well, they will continue like every day.

> LEARN from the mistakes, many, many good programmers did. See TWEAK bad fate. Dead development process. Good sourcecode, lost in space ... like many squeak packages.
>
> *Defective development process*. I posted that as issue, it was deleted by someone not really understanding, what i meant.
>
> thanx for understanding.

Really, I tried to understand you, but I only see complains and no code or help.

Miguel Cobá
>
> cheers, Guido Stepken
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
>

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Pharo is getting hot.
It seems that we have our own little troll.
Champaign everybody :)

Stef



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At Tue, 26 May 2009 10:09:58 -0600,
Brian Brown wrote:
>
> > Do you really think, he really cares about his former code  
> > contribution to a system, which from the beginning was free and open?
>
> So anytime you want to, you can just decide what someone else's  
> intention for their code contribution was and do what you want? Each  
> person owns his own code, and Pharo has to be careful and have actual  
> permission to use the code they distribute.

  I have nothing important to add here. and like the idea of having
Pharo 1.0 clean and be careful.  But in my humble opinion, yes,
*probably* Richard's intention was to make his code be free and open,
as he released it under the Squeak License, which is fairly liberal,
and he didn't complain when it is distributed in that way for a long
time.

  The sad part is that we as the developers are made to think that
being overly defensive is the right position...

-- Yoshiki

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David, congrats, would you share some screenshots or website?

-----Mensaje original-----
De: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]]En nombre de
Stephane Ducasse
Enviado el: Martes, 26 de Mayo de 2009 12:56 p.m.
Para: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
Asunto: Re: [Pharo-project] Crypt ... Libraries ...



On May 26, 2009, at 3:45 PM, David Mitchell wrote:

> I use Pharo for commercial work TODAY!

This is cool.
Can you tell us a bit more :)

> Thank you Pharo team!

Stef


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--
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.12.11/2089 - Release Date: 30/04/2009
05:53 p.m.



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Yes I agree.

Stef

On May 29, 2009, at 12:02 AM, Yoshiki Ohshima wrote:


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