Dear Santa ...
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Only a few days until christmas. You should tell Santa your wishes for Pharo here on the list - who knows maybe in one of the next releases or announcements...
Let me be the first: - easy to use foreign interface including callback support for all major platforms - reliable (new) squeaksource which includes a one-click image so one can easy setup an own (internal) server Thx T. -- Neu: GMX De-Mail - Einfach wie E-Mail, sicher wie ein Brief! Jetzt De-Mail-Adresse reservieren: http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/demail |
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On 18 December 2010 20:16, Torsten Bergmann <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Only a few days until christmas. You should tell Santa your wishes for Pharo here on the list - who knows maybe in one of the next releases or announcements... > > Let me be the first: > - easy to use foreign interface including callback support for > all major platforms > - reliable (new) squeaksource which includes a one-click image > so one can easy setup an own (internal) server > +1 Santa i want it too. > Thx > T. > > > -- > Neu: GMX De-Mail - Einfach wie E-Mail, sicher wie ein Brief! > Jetzt De-Mail-Adresse reservieren: http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/demail > > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig. |
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In reply to this post by Torsten Bergmann
Am 18.12.2010 um 20:16 schrieb Torsten Bergmann: > Only a few days until christmas. You should tell Santa your wishes for Pharo here on the list - who knows maybe in one of the next releases or announcements... > > Let me be the first: > - easy to use foreign interface including callback support for > all major platforms > - reliable (new) squeaksource which includes a one-click image > so one can easy setup an own (internal) server > I want a smalltalksource for all Smalltalk dialects. And I don't want to fear that any company or manager gone wild could cancel it. Really, the Smalltalk community is small and fragmented, and every dialect is trying to have its own version management and project hosting. This is really bad IMHO. So many things got already lost or are fallen into oblivion because they were hosted somewhere nobody knows or cares anymore. Sigh, Andreas |
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let's start to get more political here:
- first did VW ever considered any community? - second does it make sense not to change? - third what is a better smalltalk? Yes of course been fragmented is bad but this is like that. Stef On Dec 18, 2010, at 8:38 PM, Andreas Wacknitz wrote: > > Am 18.12.2010 um 20:16 schrieb Torsten Bergmann: > >> Only a few days until christmas. You should tell Santa your wishes for Pharo here on the list - who knows maybe in one of the next releases or announcements... >> >> Let me be the first: >> - easy to use foreign interface including callback support for >> all major platforms >> - reliable (new) squeaksource which includes a one-click image >> so one can easy setup an own (internal) server >> > I want a smalltalksource for all Smalltalk dialects. And I don't want to fear that any company or manager gone wild could cancel it. > Really, the Smalltalk community is small and fragmented, and every dialect is trying to have its own version management and project hosting. > This is really bad IMHO. So many things got already lost or are fallen into oblivion because they were hosted somewhere nobody knows or cares anymore. > > Sigh, > Andreas > > > |
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In reply to this post by Torsten Bergmann
Only that? :)
I was really a nice boy and I want more :) But I have the impression that santa is busy and we will have to do it ourselves. For my wish list I sent it a while ago as an answer to andres. Stef > Only a few days until christmas. You should tell Santa your wishes for Pharo here on the list - who knows maybe in one of the next releases or announcements... > > Let me be the first: > - easy to use foreign interface including callback support for > all major platforms > - reliable (new) squeaksource which includes a one-click image > so one can easy setup an own (internal) server > > Thx > T. > > > -- > Neu: GMX De-Mail - Einfach wie E-Mail, sicher wie ein Brief! > Jetzt De-Mail-Adresse reservieren: http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/demail > |
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On 18 December 2010 22:04, Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Only that? :) > > I was really a nice boy and I want more :) > But I have the impression that santa is busy and we will have to do it ourselves. hey, don't spoil the play :) (sure we can be Santa for ourselves) > For my wish list I sent it a while ago as an answer to andres. > Yes, Santa, read Stef's wish list please! > Stef > >> Only a few days until christmas. You should tell Santa your wishes for Pharo here on the list - who knows maybe in one of the next releases or announcements... >> >> Let me be the first: >> - easy to use foreign interface including callback support for >> all major platforms >> - reliable (new) squeaksource which includes a one-click image >> so one can easy setup an own (internal) server >> >> Thx >> T. >> >> >> -- >> Neu: GMX De-Mail - Einfach wie E-Mail, sicher wie ein Brief! >> Jetzt De-Mail-Adresse reservieren: http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/demail >> > > > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig. |
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In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse
On 18. 12. 2010 22:02, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: > let's start to get more political here: > > - first did VW ever considered any community? Yep, in 90's and start of new millenium. but this is unrelated question. > - second does it make sense not to change? This is also unrelated question to Andreas observations. > - third what is a better smalltalk? This is again unrelated question to Andreas observations. I any case, struggling to take care about a Smalltalk wide communty while working in our narrower subcommunities like Pharo, Aida, Seaside etc. is certainly a good and noble goal. Isn't that so? Best regards Janko > Yes of course been fragmented is bad but this is like that. > Stef > On Dec 18, 2010, at 8:38 PM, Andreas Wacknitz wrote: >>> - reliable (new) squeaksource which includes a one-click image >>> so one can easy setup an own (internal) server >>> >> I want a smalltalksource for all Smalltalk dialects. And I don't want to fear that any company or manager gone wild could cancel it. >> Really, the Smalltalk community is small and fragmented, and every dialect is trying to have its own version management and project hosting. >> This is really bad IMHO. So many things got already lost or are fallen into oblivion because they were hosted somewhere nobody knows or cares anymore. >> >> Sigh, >> Andreas -- Janko Mivšek AIDA/Web Smalltalk Web Application Server http://www.aidaweb.si |
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In reply to this post by Andreas Wacknitz
On 18. 12. 2010 20:38, Andreas Wacknitz wrote:
> > Am 18.12.2010 um 20:16 schrieb Torsten Bergmann: > >> Only a few days until christmas. You should tell Santa your wishes for Pharo here on the list - who knows maybe in one of the next releases or announcements... >> >> Let me be the first: >> - easy to use foreign interface including callback support for >> all major platforms >> - reliable (new) squeaksource which includes a one-click image >> so one can easy setup an own (internal) server >> > I want a smalltalksource for all Smalltalk dialects. And I don't want to fear that any company or manager gone wild could cancel it. > Really, the Smalltalk community is small and fragmented, and every dialect is trying to have its own version management and project hosting. > This is really bad IMHO. So many things got already lost or are fallen into oblivion because they were hosted somewhere nobody knows or cares anymore. I second Andreas and Torsten wishes and adds few mine: - Namespaces - Breakpoints - Monticello/Metacello directly from browser - portable async FFI - SOAP/WSDL with object mapping and one-click tool - even more usability enhancements - rock solid image and VM for image-only persistency - more Eliot :) Best regards Janko -- Janko Mivšek AIDA/Web Smalltalk Web Application Server http://www.aidaweb.si |
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In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse
Stef,
Do you mean better than VW or Pharo? Dolphin is damn good; the problem there is Windows itself. On technical grounds, VW is excellent. Its feature set is bigger than Dolphin's, and so is its price tag. When I first started getting very concerned about Microsoft's whims knocking me out of business, I contacted Cincom (or perhaps it was a predecessor??) and asked for a price. They literally asked me "what's it worth to you?" Whether that is scary or innovative, I'm not sure. It was not something I was ready to take the accountant du jour. Perhaps VW would have a community grow around it were it not for the runtime fees?? Just asking. The pricing model certainly stopped me from even trying to adopt it on Linux several years ago. Smalltalk/X and MT both have their followers, or at least had strong ones when I last looked: I didn't get it. X was unstable, and MT wasn't finished, IMHO. Again, that is old news at this point and would need to be re-evaluated. Bill ________________________________________ From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse [[hidden email]] Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2010 4:02 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Dear Santa ... let's start to get more political here: - first did VW ever considered any community? - second does it make sense not to change? - third what is a better smalltalk? Yes of course been fragmented is bad but this is like that. Stef On Dec 18, 2010, at 8:38 PM, Andreas Wacknitz wrote: |
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In reply to this post by Janko Mivšek
Janko Mivšek wrote:
> - Namespaces +1 - that would be a very nice present. |
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In reply to this post by Janko Mivšek
A global Information System for Smalltalk, a system directed towards smalltalk projects and **people** (I mean smalltalkers whether dev or user) :).
Ideally directed towards all smalltalk flavors (because more than the code, design discussions, algorithms are the most valuable information and this is just too sparse now) but that could be just Pharo/Squeak as a start, or even just Pharo to avoid too much hassle... I might not be really clear below but here's what I'd love as a central repository/system for smalltalkers (if Santa exists, he will understand me anyway ;o) ). This system will be before all oriented towards community, people, developpers so people can discuss design, see the profile of other smalltalkers, have an overall view on a project, its state, what people think about, etc etc... We need a better VISIBILITY on the existing (projects and people), and retrieval according to our taste... We need to characterize projets and above all people (that's the difficult point because this could led to offensive remarks. We should think a lot on how to objectively characterize developpers and then projects to stay polite and nice) Here are some examples of the kind of mechanisms I'd like in such a tool: (1) I like a lot Mr. R. developing style. Far more professional than what I can do, so I trust his project if I need to reuse. For some people, this might be too much engineered (any resemblance to persons living or programming in smalltalk is purely coincidental ). Anyway, I **trust** his projects and what he thinks on others. So I'd like to get the appropriate feedback (ie. what are the projects he cares about). (2) Mr C. has a similar profile as me, so I'm "automatically" interested in what he does and what he thinks (comments, discussion), etc... (3) Automatic discovery and notifications on "pieces of interest" -> project, dicussions, etc... (for instance, I'm not that interested right now in VM stuffs...) To me, it's just a discussion on how to characterize a project and a smalltalker (I don't say it's easy), then how to compare them (I can help there - on comparison on fuzzy entities). All the rest is UI and Tool stuffs. ***One simple subset and starting point would be to have a simple web page by smalltalkers*** Each user/developper will be automatically registered on that system (be the page be private by default) This page (url - maybe just the fragment) could be the unique identifier of the developer. No more initials, or combination of names, instead we have a classic login/password. Then it could be the entry point for a larger system... why not in squeaksource 2 ? Thanks Santa, I hope you get the idea :) YAD Cédrick (Yet Another Dreamer) ps: to finish some random thoughts: -Organised by projets -- project (code + comments by other + vote + blog) -- platforms (backup for legacy ones - ex: works for squeak 3.8, so we keep a **working** one click version somewhere) -- documentation (for a specific version) - again blog + interactive documentation (video associated to specific versions, **list of Deubug It methods in certain context***) -- code indicators (number of...) -- code (bleeding) + RC versions (+comments from others) (metacello ? only pharo... metametacello :) ) - dependancies... -- have a clear "time scale" of the project (when started, when released, still developped...) -Organized by people/group --profile/group description, interest, ... --automatic mailing list for groups --all projects done, even just started |
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In reply to this post by Stephen Taylor
Stephen Taylor <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Janko Mivšek wrote: > >> - Namespaces > > +1 - that would be a very nice present. > +1 - this is a longstanding wish for many people. is it too controversial to wonder if Pharo/Squeak namespaces can be compatible with VisualWorks? I also miss the days of a compatible chunk format. Monticello is nice when it works, but it's always been a bit frustrating to chase a moving target when all you want to do is load some code... |
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In reply to this post by Janko Mivšek
Hi Janko,
2010/12/18 Janko Mivšek <[hidden email]>
:) But this could mean lots of things. a) I'm not doing enough, b) I need to put on weight, c) my jokes are great, d) you want specific things done in the VM area. So while this made me laugh and so far is inspiring (I mean, if you really do mean a) I'm going to have a miserable xmas, and my wife is going to be miserable if you mean b) ) I'd love for you to make some specific suggestions as to what more Eliot might mean (besides eating a /lot/ over xmas to try and create a few more kilos of Eliot).
best Eliot
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In reply to this post by Torsten Bergmann
I would like a Pharo Core image running nicely 16 core on the RoarVM.
That requires just to fix a few more concurrency bugs, should not be to hard. On 18 Dec 2010, at 20:16, Torsten Bergmann wrote: > Only a few days until christmas. You should tell Santa your wishes for Pharo here on the list - who knows maybe in one of the next releases or announcements... > > Let me be the first: > - easy to use foreign interface including callback support for > all major platforms > - reliable (new) squeaksource which includes a one-click image > so one can easy setup an own (internal) server > > Thx > T. > > > -- > Neu: GMX De-Mail - Einfach wie E-Mail, sicher wie ein Brief! > Jetzt De-Mail-Adresse reservieren: http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/demail > -- Stefan Marr Software Languages Lab Vrije Universiteit Brussel Pleinlaan 2 / B-1050 Brussels / Belgium http://soft.vub.ac.be/~smarr Phone: +32 2 629 2974 Fax: +32 2 629 3525 |
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> I would like a Pharo Core image running nicely 16 core on the RoarVM.
> That requires just to fix a few more concurrency bugs, should not be to hard. "I would like a Pharo Core image running nicely 16 core on the RoarVM. That requires just to fix a few more concurrency bugs, should not be to hard." Wow... What's a quote! :-) Alexandre > > > On 18 Dec 2010, at 20:16, Torsten Bergmann wrote: > >> Only a few days until christmas. You should tell Santa your wishes for Pharo here on the list - who knows maybe in one of the next releases or announcements... >> >> Let me be the first: >> - easy to use foreign interface including callback support for >> all major platforms >> - reliable (new) squeaksource which includes a one-click image >> so one can easy setup an own (internal) server >> >> Thx >> T. >> >> >> -- >> Neu: GMX De-Mail - Einfach wie E-Mail, sicher wie ein Brief! >> Jetzt De-Mail-Adresse reservieren: http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/demail >> > > -- > Stefan Marr > Software Languages Lab > Vrije Universiteit Brussel > Pleinlaan 2 / B-1050 Brussels / Belgium > http://soft.vub.ac.be/~smarr > Phone: +32 2 629 2974 > Fax: +32 2 629 3525 > > -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. |
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Hi Alexandre:
On 20 Dec 2010, at 23:54, Alexandre Bergel wrote: > "I would like a Pharo Core image running nicely 16 core on the RoarVM. > That requires just to fix a few more concurrency bugs, should not be to hard." > > Wow... What's a quote! All kidding aside, the amount of concurrency related constructs in Smalltalk is very manageable. And interestingly, form what I have seen so far, there are a number of problematic idioms which make things fast on the standard VM, but rely on scheduling guarantees. My gut tells me, that a significant number of those bugs which are still bugging me, could be found with pattern detection, code smell analysis or what ever you want to call it. They should be formalizable and detectable. We would have people with the right tools and knowledge at the lab, unfortunately with the wrong interests... And there should be a paper in there. Any volunteers? ;) Best regards Stefan > > :-) > > Alexandre > > >> >> >> On 18 Dec 2010, at 20:16, Torsten Bergmann wrote: >> >>> Only a few days until christmas. You should tell Santa your wishes for Pharo here on the list - who knows maybe in one of the next releases or announcements... >>> >>> Let me be the first: >>> - easy to use foreign interface including callback support for >>> all major platforms >>> - reliable (new) squeaksource which includes a one-click image >>> so one can easy setup an own (internal) server >>> >>> Thx >>> T. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Neu: GMX De-Mail - Einfach wie E-Mail, sicher wie ein Brief! >>> Jetzt De-Mail-Adresse reservieren: http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/demail >>> >> >> -- >> Stefan Marr >> Software Languages Lab >> Vrije Universiteit Brussel >> Pleinlaan 2 / B-1050 Brussels / Belgium >> http://soft.vub.ac.be/~smarr >> Phone: +32 2 629 2974 >> Fax: +32 2 629 3525 >> >> > > -- > _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: > Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu > ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. > > > > > > -- Stefan Marr Software Languages Lab Vrije Universiteit Brussel Pleinlaan 2 / B-1050 Brussels / Belgium http://soft.vub.ac.be/~smarr Phone: +32 2 629 2974 Fax: +32 2 629 3525 |
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I remember to have seen a presentation from Intel when they opened their center in Ireland. They are targeting a 64 core CPU. I am not expert in concurrency, but there is clearly more than a paper to write about.
Alexandre On 20 Dec 2010, at 20:29, Stefan Marr wrote: > Hi Alexandre: > > On 20 Dec 2010, at 23:54, Alexandre Bergel wrote: >> "I would like a Pharo Core image running nicely 16 core on the RoarVM. >> That requires just to fix a few more concurrency bugs, should not be to hard." >> >> Wow... What's a quote! > All kidding aside, the amount of concurrency related constructs in Smalltalk is very manageable. > And interestingly, form what I have seen so far, there are a number of problematic idioms which make things fast on the standard VM, but rely on scheduling guarantees. > > My gut tells me, that a significant number of those bugs which are still bugging me, could be found with pattern detection, code smell analysis or what ever you want to call it. > They should be formalizable and detectable. > > We would have people with the right tools and knowledge at the lab, unfortunately with the wrong interests... > And there should be a paper in there. Any volunteers? ;) > > Best regards > Stefan > >> >> :-) >> >> Alexandre >> >> >>> >>> >>> On 18 Dec 2010, at 20:16, Torsten Bergmann wrote: >>> >>>> Only a few days until christmas. You should tell Santa your wishes for Pharo here on the list - who knows maybe in one of the next releases or announcements... >>>> >>>> Let me be the first: >>>> - easy to use foreign interface including callback support for >>>> all major platforms >>>> - reliable (new) squeaksource which includes a one-click image >>>> so one can easy setup an own (internal) server >>>> >>>> Thx >>>> T. >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Neu: GMX De-Mail - Einfach wie E-Mail, sicher wie ein Brief! >>>> Jetzt De-Mail-Adresse reservieren: http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/demail >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> Stefan Marr >>> Software Languages Lab >>> Vrije Universiteit Brussel >>> Pleinlaan 2 / B-1050 Brussels / Belgium >>> http://soft.vub.ac.be/~smarr >>> Phone: +32 2 629 2974 >>> Fax: +32 2 629 3525 >>> >>> >> >> -- >> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: >> Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu >> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. >> >> >> >> >> >> > > -- > Stefan Marr > Software Languages Lab > Vrije Universiteit Brussel > Pleinlaan 2 / B-1050 Brussels / Belgium > http://soft.vub.ac.be/~smarr > Phone: +32 2 629 2974 > Fax: +32 2 629 3525 > > -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. |
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Dear Santa,
You suck, I don't believe in you. I'm sure you don't even know how to program. PS: But if you're reading this, I just want more time, so I can help to program the others' wishes :P. That'll be fun :) On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 11:06 PM, Alexandre Bergel <[hidden email]> wrote: I remember to have seen a presentation from Intel when they opened their center in Ireland. They are targeting a 64 core CPU. I am not expert in concurrency, but there is clearly more than a paper to write about. |
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In reply to this post by Stefan Marr-4
Stefan
do you have the fixes? Stef On Dec 20, 2010, at 11:27 PM, Stefan Marr wrote: > I would like a Pharo Core image running nicely 16 core on the RoarVM. > That requires just to fix a few more concurrency bugs, should not be to hard. > > > On 18 Dec 2010, at 20:16, Torsten Bergmann wrote: > >> Only a few days until christmas. You should tell Santa your wishes for Pharo here on the list - who knows maybe in one of the next releases or announcements... >> >> Let me be the first: >> - easy to use foreign interface including callback support for >> all major platforms >> - reliable (new) squeaksource which includes a one-click image >> so one can easy setup an own (internal) server >> >> Thx >> T. >> >> >> -- >> Neu: GMX De-Mail - Einfach wie E-Mail, sicher wie ein Brief! >> Jetzt De-Mail-Adresse reservieren: http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/demail >> > > -- > Stefan Marr > Software Languages Lab > Vrije Universiteit Brussel > Pleinlaan 2 / B-1050 Brussels / Belgium > http://soft.vub.ac.be/~smarr > Phone: +32 2 629 2974 > Fax: +32 2 629 3525 > > |
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No, maybe Santa has them already...
Bye the way, the last discussion I started on that topic was completely ignored, and I am not sure whether fixing it in your images is worth it, since it will impact performance on standard VMs. Best regards Stefan On 21 Dec 2010, at 11:53, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: > Stefan > do you have the fixes? > Stef > > > On Dec 20, 2010, at 11:27 PM, Stefan Marr wrote: > >> I would like a Pharo Core image running nicely 16 core on the RoarVM. >> That requires just to fix a few more concurrency bugs, should not be to hard. >> >> >> On 18 Dec 2010, at 20:16, Torsten Bergmann wrote: >> >>> Only a few days until christmas. You should tell Santa your wishes for Pharo here on the list - who knows maybe in one of the next releases or announcements... >>> >>> Let me be the first: >>> - easy to use foreign interface including callback support for >>> all major platforms >>> - reliable (new) squeaksource which includes a one-click image >>> so one can easy setup an own (internal) server >>> >>> Thx >>> T. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Neu: GMX De-Mail - Einfach wie E-Mail, sicher wie ein Brief! >>> Jetzt De-Mail-Adresse reservieren: http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/demail >>> >> >> -- >> Stefan Marr >> Software Languages Lab >> Vrije Universiteit Brussel >> Pleinlaan 2 / B-1050 Brussels / Belgium >> http://soft.vub.ac.be/~smarr >> Phone: +32 2 629 2974 >> Fax: +32 2 629 3525 >> >> > > -- Stefan Marr Software Languages Lab Vrije Universiteit Brussel Pleinlaan 2 / B-1050 Brussels / Belgium http://soft.vub.ac.be/~smarr Phone: +32 2 629 2974 Fax: +32 2 629 3525 |
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