Default code browser
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Hi!
I saw many people using the package browser instead of OBSystemBrowserAdaptor, even if this last is faster and has less bug. I am just wondering whether reverting the default browser to O2PackageBrowser is not something we should consider. Cheers, Alexandre -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: Default code browser
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On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 9:32 PM, Alexandre Bergel <[hidden email]> wrote: Hi! I don't use it, and I think all the people that don't use it is for the same reason, and it is because it is REALLY slow. Even in good machines. Cheers, _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
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> I don't use it, and I think all the people that don't use it is for
> the same reason, and it is because it is REALLY slow. Even in good > machines. I do not know what you mean by REALLY slow, but I find the latency of the package browser perfectly acceptable. If people prefer the system browser, then fine with me. I just saw a number of people systematically switching to the package browser. Alexandre -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: Default code browser
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On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 10:12 PM, Alexandre Bergel <[hidden email]> wrote:
More than one second to open the brower. More than one second to go to another method, etc. Anyway, for me its the same as I can change it when I download an image. We can do a poll if you want, but I think someone (david, lukas or I don't know who) is working in a better browser with a faster package. If people prefer the system browser, then fine with me. I just saw a _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
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> More than one second to open the brower. More than one second to go
> to another method, etc. Anyway, for me its the same as I can change > it when I download an image. We can do a poll if you want, but I > think someone (david, lukas or I don't know who) is working in a > better browser with a faster package. ?? There should be something wrong with your config. I have the following result: [O2PackageBrowser openOnClass: MOGraphElement selector: #displayOn] timeToRun => 810 [O2PackageBrowser openOnClass: Object selector: #printString] timeToRun => 1380 I have a macbook pro. I am more concerned with the user aspect point of view of Pharo. All my students prefer the package browser. This says something I feel. Alexandre -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
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In reply to this post by Alexandre Bergel
Hi,
What about a survey? Let's learn something from strategic marketing and actually find out what users prefer :) -What browser do you prefer? --OBSystemBrowser --OBPackageBrowser --Classic System Browser --Classic Package Browser -Do you want syntax colorising enabled by default? -Do you use refactoring tools? -Do you use code completion? -What tool do you consider a must for Pharo in your daily work? etc. Hernán 2009/12/17 Alexandre Bergel <[hidden email]>: > Hi! > > I saw many people using the package browser instead of > OBSystemBrowserAdaptor, even if this last is faster and has less bug. > I am just wondering whether reverting the default browser to > O2PackageBrowser is not something we should consider. > > Cheers, > Alexandre > > -- > _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: > Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu > ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
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> -What browser do you prefer?
> --OBPackageBrowser Yes, david's browser > -Do you want syntax colorising enabled by default? Yes. (strange question by the way, someone will say no?) > -Do you use refactoring tools? Of course. > -Do you use code completion? Yes. > -What tool do you consider a must for Pharo in your daily work? Package Browser :-) Mondrian, Moose, Glamour, MC, Metacello. Alexandre > > 2009/12/17 Alexandre Bergel <[hidden email]>: >> Hi! >> >> I saw many people using the package browser instead of >> OBSystemBrowserAdaptor, even if this last is faster and has less bug. >> I am just wondering whether reverting the default browser to >> O2PackageBrowser is not something we should consider. >> >> Cheers, >> Alexandre >> >> -- >> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: >> Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu >> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: Default code browser
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In reply to this post by Alexandre Bergel
On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 10:34 PM, Alexandre Bergel <[hidden email]> wrote:
you put the same browser twice and I don't have the class MOGraphElement ;) Anyway, I tried with the class GraphMorph same selector: O2PackageBrowser: 1407 O2SystemBrowser: 422 OBSystemBrowser: 487 Cheers Mariano I have a macbook pro. _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
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In reply to this post by hernanmd
Ok, then my own answers, although I thought a survey is a nice thing
to have in the web site (people love to take surveys :) > -What browser do you prefer? OBSystemBrowser > -Do you want syntax colorising enabled by default? Yes (it's a question I ask myself everytime I just open a Pharo-Core image :) > -Do you use refactoring tools? Yes > -Do you use code completion? No > -What tool do you consider a must for Pharo in your daily work? -ScriptManager -KeyMapper -Code Coverage -CHB with Hierarchy Integration -Resources Browser -Memory Monitor -MessageSpy Hernán _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
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In reply to this post by Mariano Martinez Peck
> > More than one second to open the brower. More than one second to go
> > to another method, etc. > There should be something wrong with your config. I have the following > result: > [O2PackageBrowser openOnClass: MOGraphElement selector: #displayOn] > timeToRun > => 810 > > [O2PackageBrowser openOnClass: Object selector: #printString] > timeToRun > => 1380 > > > you put the same browser twice and I don't have the class > MOGraphElement ;) I was checking whether the package browser takes more than 1 sec to open. This is the case for a very big class only (Object) [O2PackageBrowser openOnClass: GraphMorph selector: #clear] timeToRun => 1117 > Anyway, I tried with the class GraphMorph same selector: > > O2PackageBrowser: 1407 > O2SystemBrowser: 422 > OBSystemBrowser: 487 I am not saying that package browser is fast. I am just saying that its features overcome its slowness for some people (and more than 3 or 4). I am just a bit concerned about the fact that O2SystemBrowser is the default browser. But if I am the only one, no problem at all then. Cheers, Alexandre -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
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In reply to this post by Alexandre Bergel
Re Shout, someone _could_ say no, but Shout is generally not a bottleneck that I can see. It is a must.
Refactoring tools: I use what works and works well. Sorry, but that's not much of it. I just had it let me down today on a pull-up operation. I probably could have fiddled and gotten it to work, but it was just plain easier to do it myself. I "never" use refactorings that lead to reformatting of my code. There has long been talk of getting to a point of respecting existing formatting, but I have nothing on hold over it. Code completion: no. I type very fast, and it just gets in the way. I _might_ use it in the debugger where there is more context to help it make good decisions, but for now, turning it off is one of the first things in my build script. Re the various browsers, they are not terribly well identified, so it takes work to figure out what I am using. I found the package browser to be VERY slow - too slow for normal use. I select the standard toolset. Bill -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Alexandre Bergel Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 4:46 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Default code browser > -What browser do you prefer? > --OBPackageBrowser Yes, david's browser > -Do you want syntax colorising enabled by default? Yes. (strange question by the way, someone will say no?) > -Do you use refactoring tools? Of course. > -Do you use code completion? Yes. > -What tool do you consider a must for Pharo in your daily work? Package Browser :-) Mondrian, Moose, Glamour, MC, Metacello. Alexandre > > 2009/12/17 Alexandre Bergel <[hidden email]>: >> Hi! >> >> I saw many people using the package browser instead of >> OBSystemBrowserAdaptor, even if this last is faster and has less bug. >> I am just wondering whether reverting the default browser to >> O2PackageBrowser is not something we should consider. >> >> Cheers, >> Alexandre >> >> -- >> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: >> Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu >> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
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In reply to this post by Alexandre Bergel
I use Package Browser, because I find it more confortable, but anyway:
[O2PackageBrowser openOnClass: Object selector: #printString] timeToRun. 1236 [O2SystemBrowser openOnClass: Object selector: #printString] timeToRun. 578 So, there is a big difference. I'm on a macbook aluminium Cheers, Esteban On 2009-12-17 18:34:20 -0300, Alexandre Bergel <[hidden email]> said: > [O2PackageBrowser openOnClass: Object selector: #printString] timeToRun _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
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In reply to this post by Alexandre Bergel
I would like a mix of the three ;). For me O2PackageBrowserAdaptor is great for - monticello integration
- package, hier. groups views, - history navigation - explicit icons OBSystemBrowserAdaptor for
- speed - the toolbar (browse, hierarchie, variables, ...) and especially "versions" button
Browser for: - speed - class comment panel To explore the system I use O2PackageBrowserAdaptor, to write code I use OBSystemBrowserAdaptor.
For Christmas, I would like :) - tab support because my laptop has a small screen - split code panel like emacs/vi to edit/view several methods at once
Cheers, Laurent On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 9:32 PM, Alexandre Bergel <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi! _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
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Exactly!
Alexandre On 18 Dec 2009, at 08:02, laurent laffont wrote: > I would like a mix of the three ;). For me > > O2PackageBrowserAdaptor is great for > - monticello integration > - package, hier. groups views, > - history navigation > - explicit icons > > OBSystemBrowserAdaptor for > - speed > - the toolbar (browse, hierarchie, variables, ...) and especially > "versions" button > > Browser for: > - speed > - class comment panel > > To explore the system I use O2PackageBrowserAdaptor, to write code > I use OBSystemBrowserAdaptor. > > For Christmas, I would like :) > - tab support because my laptop has a small screen > - split code panel like emacs/vi to edit/view several methods at once > > Cheers, > > Laurent > > On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 9:32 PM, Alexandre Bergel > <[hidden email]> wrote: > Hi! > > I saw many people using the package browser instead of > OBSystemBrowserAdaptor, even if this last is faster and has less bug. > I am just wondering whether reverting the default browser to > O2PackageBrowser is not something we should consider. > > Cheers, > Alexandre > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
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In reply to this post by EstebanLM
Concerning the speed. I've measured the same things you did, and on Pharo 1.1, its about 25% faster than Pharo 1.0. Which is nice, very nice. Regards, Bart On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 11:27 PM, Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]> wrote: I use Package Browser, because I find it more confortable, but anyway: -- imagination is more important than knowledge - Albert Einstein Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere - Albert Einstein Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning. - Albert Einstein The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination. - Albert Einstein Gravitation is not responsible for people falling in love. - Albert Einstein _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
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In reply to this post by laurent laffont
> For Christmas, I would like :)
> - tab support because my laptop has a small screen How are tabs different to the taskbar with all windows maximized? I implemented tabs for OB a few years back, but then came the taskbar which i found more useful (and faster). Lukas -- Lukas Renggli http://www.lukas-renggli.ch _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
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In reply to this post by Schwab,Wilhelm K
+1 here Other than that, I find that none of the browsers are at this stage great yet from an intuitive, usability point of view (mind you, I consider myself to be very 'newbie'). I am also looking at Pharo + Seaside or AIDAWeb mainly as an IDE tool to create web apps as I am not that interested (or skilled for that matter) in tinkering with the core. I am hoping that the new package management system (MetaCello in Pharo 1.1?) will streamline some of the confusion and allow the user to have the option to somehow hide "system" or Pharo-Core packages from the IDE. I could be wrong here, but methods of a class can be nicely organized using protocols ... and then there is this whole vague, confusing world of how classes are managed in categories and packages ... but the term package could actually also refer to a category, which is actually a package, but a package can also be a Monticello package, which could be different than the category or should I say package? All this may make perfect sense to the gurus but it is extremely confusing, because packages also need to be able to be grouped into projects (is this the term?) and have dependencies on other packages and/or projects? I haven't even mentioned the confusion of SqueakMap/PharoMap, SqueakSouce/PharoSource, Monticello and Universes. |
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In reply to this post by Mariano Martinez Peck
On Dec 17, 2009, at 10:23 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > > > On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 10:12 PM, Alexandre Bergel <[hidden email]> wrote: > > I don't use it, and I think all the people that don't use it is for > > the same reason, and it is because it is REALLY slow. Even in good > > machines. > > I do not know what you mean by REALLY slow, but I find the latency of > the package browser perfectly acceptable. > > More than one second to open the brower. More than one second to go to another method, etc. Anyway, for me its the same as I can change it when I download an image. We can do a poll if you want, but I think someone (david, lukas or I don't know who) is working in a better browser with a faster package. I'm slowly making progress on the new package support I have some red tests that I should fix. After I will be able to start thinking about the integration within MC convention. And there will be a lot of bugs... so I will need help. > If people prefer the system browser, then fine with me. I just saw a > number of people systematically switching to the package browser. > > Alexandre > > -- > _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: > Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu > ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
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In reply to this post by Lukas Renggli
On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 9:32 AM, Lukas Renggli <[hidden email]> wrote:
I want to see Transcript / Workspace / .... at the same time. But I will try to work the way you do. I've also played with layouts trying to have windows behave like Ion (http://modeemi.fi/~tuomov/ion/intro.html)...
OK Laurent
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In reply to this post by Lukas Renggli
2009/12/18 Lukas Renggli <[hidden email]>:
> How are tabs different to the taskbar with all windows maximized? I think it's a common practice to have more than one browser opened with different methods in each. I usually have three or more. One for a test. One or more for the method being tested. And one or more for the system navigation. I also usually have workspaces, debugger and so one. So I think it is helpful to be in the context of one tool (Browser) when jumping from one method to another and leave the taskbar to hold other tools. Though I think WhiskerBrowser still covers the above use case better. Unfortunately it doesn't run on Pharo. Cheers, George _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
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