Developer guide ... ?
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On Wed, 30 Dec 2009, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
> You're twisting what I said; I did not put CORBA at the top, I simply acknowledged that it has some value. SSL is useful to the point that I find NO excuse for its not having been wrapped long ago by Sqeuak. The cryptography team _insisted_ on building their own stack vs. using OpenSSL. They managed it; then they burned out. If I have the facts wrong and am missing code, please tell me. > SSL is useful, though most of the time it's used for HTTPS, and we have the cURL plugin to handle that. And you're right, the Cryptography team doesn't exists anymore, the code was abandoned, but the Croquet guys picked it up and fixed a few bugs in it, though it still has some. The code is available here: http://croquet-src-01.oit.duke.edu:8886/Contributions.html (Note that without the DESPlugin the implementation is really slooooooooooow) Levente > Bill > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Levente Uzonyi > Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 8:16 PM > To: [hidden email] > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Developer guide ... ? > > On Wed, 30 Dec 2009, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > >> Levente, >> >> I'll give you a pass on RPC, on SOAP for sure, and _almost_ on CORBA :) However, a culture of dismissing important things as crap lead us to a point approaching 15 years into Squeak's existence where it does not have ready access to SSL. I know about stunnel, but that is more cheat than fix. Pharo needs to embrace the worthy or we will still be on the fringe 15 years from now, and that would be tragic. > > There's an SSL implementation in the Cryptography package, though I don't know if it works or not. > If CORBA is so important then why doesn't exist a free smalltalk implementation after 18 years? > > > Levente > >> >> Bill >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [hidden email] >> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of >> Levente Uzonyi >> Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 7:14 PM >> To: [hidden email] >> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Developer guide ... ? >> >> On Wed, 30 Dec 2009, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: >> >>> Levente, >>> >>> I have to call you out on something: SSL is **definitely** not crap, and we should have a clean interface to it, probably via OpenSSL. I will eventually create same if not beaten to it. >> >> That's true, I was thinking about the rpc stuff. >> >>> >>> CORBA is also not crap. To be blunt, none of the listed technologies are crap if one has an externally defined problem (aka something that pay$ the bill$) that requires communicating with something that uses them. I will grant you that most of them have a pretty high crap coefficient, and I would not go out of my way to use them unless "forced" to do so. >>> >> >> Crap may not be the best word (but fits really well IMO), so overcomplicated bloatware. >> >> >> Levente >> >>> Bill >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: [hidden email] >>> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of >>> Levente Uzonyi >>> Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 5:45 PM >>> To: [hidden email] >>> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Developer guide ... ? >>> >>> On Wed, 30 Dec 2009, Guido Stepken wrote: >>> >>> [snip] >>> >>> As others pointed out, these are implemented with blocks. What would you do if, say you wanted to know how to do threading in java? Reading a book or googling is helpful: >>> - http://www.google.com/search?q=squeak+threads >>> (I guess a chapter on processes would be useful in PBE/SBE.) >>> >>>> 5. Standards: XML-RPC, SOAP, RMI, CORBA, .... encryption (SSL) ... >>>> Without having a precise idea, where to find working examples to >>>> exchance data with other systems, i would hesitate to begin to do projects with Pharo/Squeak... >>> >>> Some of this crap is available at squeaksource/squeakmap. >>> >>> Levente >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pharo-project mailing list >>> [hidden email] >>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
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Levente,
Please mention curl early and often. However, there are more uses for SSL than just https, and I've already run aground on limitations of the plugin: access to http(s) headers. Bill -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Levente Uzonyi Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 11:12 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Developer guide ... ? On Wed, 30 Dec 2009, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > You're twisting what I said; I did not put CORBA at the top, I simply acknowledged that it has some value. SSL is useful to the point that I find NO excuse for its not having been wrapped long ago by Sqeuak. The cryptography team _insisted_ on building their own stack vs. using OpenSSL. They managed it; then they burned out. If I have the facts wrong and am missing code, please tell me. > SSL is useful, though most of the time it's used for HTTPS, and we have the cURL plugin to handle that. And you're right, the Cryptography team doesn't exists anymore, the code was abandoned, but the Croquet guys picked it up and fixed a few bugs in it, though it still has some. The code is available here: http://croquet-src-01.oit.duke.edu:8886/Contributions.html (Note that without the DESPlugin the implementation is really slooooooooooow) Levente > Bill > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [hidden email] > [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of > Levente Uzonyi > Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 8:16 PM > To: [hidden email] > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Developer guide ... ? > > On Wed, 30 Dec 2009, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > >> Levente, >> >> I'll give you a pass on RPC, on SOAP for sure, and _almost_ on CORBA :) However, a culture of dismissing important things as crap lead us to a point approaching 15 years into Squeak's existence where it does not have ready access to SSL. I know about stunnel, but that is more cheat than fix. Pharo needs to embrace the worthy or we will still be on the fringe 15 years from now, and that would be tragic. > > There's an SSL implementation in the Cryptography package, though I don't know if it works or not. > If CORBA is so important then why doesn't exist a free smalltalk implementation after 18 years? > > > Levente > >> >> Bill >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [hidden email] >> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of >> Levente Uzonyi >> Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 7:14 PM >> To: [hidden email] >> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Developer guide ... ? >> >> On Wed, 30 Dec 2009, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: >> >>> Levente, >>> >>> I have to call you out on something: SSL is **definitely** not crap, and we should have a clean interface to it, probably via OpenSSL. I will eventually create same if not beaten to it. >> >> That's true, I was thinking about the rpc stuff. >> >>> >>> CORBA is also not crap. To be blunt, none of the listed technologies are crap if one has an externally defined problem (aka something that pay$ the bill$) that requires communicating with something that uses them. I will grant you that most of them have a pretty high crap coefficient, and I would not go out of my way to use them unless "forced" to do so. >>> >> >> Crap may not be the best word (but fits really well IMO), so overcomplicated bloatware. >> >> >> Levente >> >>> Bill >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: [hidden email] >>> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of >>> Levente Uzonyi >>> Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 5:45 PM >>> To: [hidden email] >>> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Developer guide ... ? >>> >>> On Wed, 30 Dec 2009, Guido Stepken wrote: >>> >>> [snip] >>> >>> As others pointed out, these are implemented with blocks. What would you do if, say you wanted to know how to do threading in java? Reading a book or googling is helpful: >>> - http://www.google.com/search?q=squeak+threads >>> (I guess a chapter on processes would be useful in PBE/SBE.) >>> >>>> 5. Standards: XML-RPC, SOAP, RMI, CORBA, .... encryption (SSL) ... >>>> Without having a precise idea, where to find working examples to >>>> exchance data with other systems, i would hesitate to begin to do projects with Pharo/Squeak... >>> >>> Some of this crap is available at squeaksource/squeakmap. >>> >>> Levente >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pharo-project mailing list >>> [hidden email] >>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
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In reply to this post by Levente Uzonyi-2
Hi levente
In VW there is the ObjectMemory class and its policy for doing that. Now what were your setup in Squeak. Passing argument to the vm as parameter or something more elaborated? On Dec 30, 2009, at 11:45 PM, Levente Uzonyi wrote: > Tuning the garbage collector (which one should do when deploying an image) may help here. Btw I didn't experience such problems with seaside (2.8 & 3.0). Stef _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
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In reply to this post by johnmci
John
why not call do a call in the seaside mailing-list to see if we could gather some money for that? I think that this is a good to have functionality. Stef On Dec 31, 2009, at 2:49 AM, John M McIntosh wrote: > > On 2009-12-30, at 4:54 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > >> Levente, >> >> I'll give you a pass on RPC, on SOAP for sure, and _almost_ on CORBA :) However, a culture of dismissing important things as crap lead us to a point approaching 15 years into Squeak's existence where it does not have ready access to SSL. I know about stunnel, but that is more cheat than fix. Pharo needs to embrace the worthy or we will still be on the fringe 15 years from now, and that would be tragic. >> >> Bill > > Well someone needs to sit for a week(s) (an oversimplification?) and write the OpenSSL FFI interface. > > You have funding for that? > > -- > =========================================================================== > John M. McIntosh <[hidden email]> Twitter: squeaker68882 > Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd. http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com > =========================================================================== > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
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In reply to this post by Levente Uzonyi-2
>
> SSL is useful, though most of the time it's used for HTTPS, and we have > the cURL plugin to handle that. And you're right, the Cryptography team > doesn't exists anymore, the code was abandoned, but the Croquet guys > picked it up and fixed a few bugs in it, though it still has some. The > code is available here: > http://croquet-src-01.oit.duke.edu:8886/Contributions.html > (Note that without the DESPlugin the implementation is really > slooooooooooow) thanks for the pointer. May be we should package it again and make it available. Stef _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
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In reply to this post by Guido Stepken
I have to agree that the whole, project, component, categories, packages, versioning, monticello, metacello thing is still a bit complicated, however I do believe the Pharo team is working hard on this and I think it will get straightened out a bit soon. Assuming you are considering web apps too I would have a look at seaside (which has been ported to a number of smalltalk dialects) or AIDAWeb. From what I understand so far seaside (AIDAWeb will have something similar) has a nice concept of canvas and brushes. It does still lack some sort of nice 4GL GUI WYSIWYG painter .... but I guess you can build one yourself :) I believe there is more than just Magma though ... how about GOODS, SqueakDBX project, SandstoneDB, GemStone's GLASS ... For a serious (if that refers to big?) project I think you ought to look at GemStone. I agree the Pharo team has come a long way in a fairly short time! Go Pharo :) |
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In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse
Stef,
This would certainly be a good thing to have, but I don't think we should rest until we can work through OpenSSL to benefit from their maintenance efforts. Bill -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 5:16 AM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Developer guide ... ? > > SSL is useful, though most of the time it's used for HTTPS, and we > have the cURL plugin to handle that. And you're right, the > Cryptography team doesn't exists anymore, the code was abandoned, but > the Croquet guys picked it up and fixed a few bugs in it, though it > still has some. The code is available here: > http://croquet-src-01.oit.duke.edu:8886/Contributions.html > (Note that without the DESPlugin the implementation is really > slooooooooooow) thanks for the pointer. May be we should package it again and make it available. Stef _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
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In reply to this post by Schwab,Wilhelm K
Bill,
Perhaps what I wrote wasn't so clear and I thought I'd put a context when I commented that my ramblings were not about the 'systems' parts which is how I see your observation, and I agree on that. In fact, save some specifics which a plugin makes sense, probably doing in Smalltalk could make the platform more competitive and not only another 'weird syntax' for gluing some other's else libraries. Now, what I was thinking about we have not resources is the big echo systems we need to connect to, for example large packages (ERP/CRM systems), nowadays a hot subject is "Sharepoint integration" but there many others. I believe we should not attempt to write competitive replacements for these as we don't have the resources (not only technical but marketing as well). -- Cesar Rabak Em 31/12/2009 00:17, Schwab,Wilhelm K <[hidden email]> escreveu: Cesar, Sometimes rewriting is exactly the right thing to do. For example, Object Arts wrapped the Microsoft XML library. First, there is the question of untrusted input and MS binaries (yikes!!!), but also, any time bad input went into it, it would fire off an error with no indication of where it got into trouble. For some reason, MS did not think to take an IStream pointer that would have allowed one to check the position. For an http client, OA again wrapped MS binaries, complete with the typical punishing timeouts under MS control, and being hobbled if IE had been set (or set itself) to work offline. Dolphin is a wonderful product, but users would have been better served with home-grown code in those cases. Bottom line: I think we should rewrite when it makes sense to do so, and wrap just about anything that makes sense for interoperability. Clearly there is a lot to wrap, and priorities must be set, as it will often fall on an individual to do the dirty work. SSL is a no-brainer. Bill -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of [hidden email] Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 8:59 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Developer guide ... ? Bill, I think you nailed it precisely! Although all 'systems' working in Pharo will not be enough if we cannot connect and integrate with the leading technologies that we cannot afford to displace/emulate/write in Pharo smalltalk. -- Cesar Rabak Em 30/12/2009 22:54, Schwab,Wilhelm K escreveu: Levente, I'll give you a pass on RPC, on SOAP for sure, and _almost_ on CORBA :) However, a culture of dismissing important things as crap lead us to a point approaching 15 years into Squeak's existence where it does not have ready access to SSL. I know about stunnel, but that is more cheat than fix. Pharo needs to embrace the worthy or we will still be on the fringe 15 years from now, and that would be tragic. Bill _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
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In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse
On Thu, 31 Dec 2009, Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
> Hi levente > > In VW there is the ObjectMemory class and its policy for doing that. Now what were your setup in Squeak. > Passing argument to the vm as parameter or something more elaborated? Just changing vm parameters via SmalltalkImage >> #vmParameterAt:put:. Levente > > On Dec 30, 2009, at 11:45 PM, Levente Uzonyi wrote: > >> Tuning the garbage collector (which one should do when deploying an image) may help here. Btw I didn't experience such problems with seaside (2.8 & 3.0). > > Stef > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
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