Do you want to accept???????? Discard???????

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Re: Do you want to accept???????? Discard???????

Sean P. DeNigris
Administrator
On Jan 12, 2014, at 1:49 PM, "Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 [via Smalltalk]" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Sorry, but it feels there are two discussion mixed:
> - if there is an unaccepted edit, it should not be lost, so we need a dialog, undo or history
Clearly

> - if you explicitly cancel an edit, there should not be a dialog, because you just said you want to cancel
Yes, and it's the "explicit" where the disagreement comes in. People are saying that closeThisBrowserWindow ~= explicitlyDiscardEdits. Therefore, for them, removing the popup without providing a way to get the code back doesn't work.
Cheers,
Sean
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Re: Do you want to accept???????? Discard???????

sebastianconcept@gmail.co
In reply to this post by Sven Van Caekenberghe-2

On Jan 12, 2014, at 4:48 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote:

- if there is an unaccepted edit, it should not be lost, so we need a dialog, undo or history

- if you explicitly cancel an edit, there should not be a dialog, because you just said you want to cancel

Yes, that's the goal.

And as far as I can see the cheapest solution (to get the best of both worlds*) is implementing a setting option to prevent dialogs on focus loss.

It might be another better more costly solutions though.


* by both worlds I mean

A) newcomers
B) veterans

if you reward too much only veterans you'll make Pharo a sub-sub-sub-niche environment (one that assumes you already are addicted to compensate the UI vices of it)



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Re: Do you want to accept???????? Discard???????

Igor Stasenko
In reply to this post by Sven Van Caekenberghe-2



On 12 January 2014 19:48, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote:
Sorry, but it feels there are two discussion mixed:

- if there is an unaccepted edit, it should not be lost, so we need a dialog, undo or history

- if you explicitly cancel an edit, there should not be a dialog, because you just said you want to cancel

Logic.
 
That is how I understand what Igor says, and that is also my opinion.


Exactly. I pressing Cmd-L, because i *want* all changes to be lost.

 
On 12 Jan 2014, at 19:43, Sean P. DeNigris <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Igor Stasenko wrote
>> I am ranting against approach of using modal popups as way to improve or
>> fill gaps in UI.
>
> I understand and agree. And that position is not revolutionary - it's a
> clear case of poor UI design.
>
> And, in this case, I think it's easy enough to lose code ( albeit a maximum
> of 7 lines, right ;-) ) by accidentally closing a browser. Say cleaning the
> world of multiple unneeded tools and repeatedly typing cmd+w, forgetting
> that there is unsaved code in 1. Or (which has happened to me) trying to
> close a bunch of error windows that appeared, and accidentally closing
> another window because the window order is not what I expected
> chronologically.
>
> So, only in the absence of undo for what IMHO is a likely error, especially
> for new users, am I suggesting to keep the pop-ups (which I personally hate
> and would rather lose code occasionally then be interrupted all the time)
> available for those who want them.
>
>
>
> -----
> Cheers,
> Sean
> --
> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Do-you-want-to-accept-Discard-tp4735220p4736163.html
> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>





--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.
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Re: Do you want to accept???????? Discard???????

Igor Stasenko
In reply to this post by sebastianconcept@gmail.co



On 12 January 2014 20:05, Sebastian Sastre <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Jan 12, 2014, at 2:54 PM, Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]> wrote:

Which goes in front collision course with the usability principle "Don't make me think" for designing great user interfaces

How do you see it? Like:
Pharo - programming language that don't makes you think?

Did I mention usability principle and user interfaces?
 
 
i'm not sure i understand now, in relation to what you mentioned it..
because .. (read below)
 
That's pushing the argument Igor.

A) is the UI that makes you think (or not) 
B) that's good because you have more energy to think in what you actually are trying to achieve 


And modal popups is clearly against this principle.
Because they
a) make you think
b) draw your energy from what you really should be thinking on..

so please explain, how adding yes/no popup to cmd-L command handling helps maintaining this principle better.

--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.
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Re: Do you want to accept???????? Discard???????

Igor Stasenko
In reply to this post by sebastianconcept@gmail.co



On 12 January 2014 20:11, Sebastian Sastre <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Jan 12, 2014, at 4:48 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote:

- if there is an unaccepted edit, it should not be lost, so we need a dialog, undo or history

- if you explicitly cancel an edit, there should not be a dialog, because you just said you want to cancel

Yes, that's the goal.

And as far as I can see the cheapest solution (to get the best of both worlds*) is implementing a setting option to prevent dialogs on focus loss.


I don't care about cost of solution because this is secondary to long standing principles:
 - do not mode me in (c). ever.
 
because principles should come first.

It might be another better more costly solutions though.

Not at all.. all you need is to change single method:

MorphicUIManager>>confirm: aStringOrText
    "Answer true.
    This was a modal question dialog, to which user was always responding yes."
   
    ^ true
 

* by both worlds I mean

A) newcomers
B) veterans

if you reward too much only veterans you'll make Pharo a sub-sub-sub-niche environment (one that assumes you already are addicted to compensate the UI vices of it)

 



--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.
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Re: Do you want to accept???????? Discard???????

sebastianconcept@gmail.co
In reply to this post by Igor Stasenko

On Jan 12, 2014, at 5:53 PM, Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]> wrote:

And modal popups is clearly against this principle. 
Because they
a) make you think
b) draw your energy from what you really should be thinking on..

so please explain, how adding yes/no popup to cmd-L command handling helps maintaining this principle better. 

Some designers think that dialogs (stateful interfaces) are the enemy of usability, and I'm in favor of using them as last resort. Also because users in general, not only programmers, have hard feelings about dialogs

What I wasn't checking (lack of usability tests I'm watching you... yet.. again...) was which workflow exactly were you talking about.

The cmd-L contains explicit information about discarding changes so asking confirmation is unnecessary.

(I thought you were talking about changing focus or the selected method on a browser and discarding changes without asking, sorry if I confused you).

Usability tests solves all this and a lot more in half a second.

Ok, I'm experimenting a little here and 

A) Cmd-L is something hidden enough to not be seen by newcomers and
B) I get that you can produce an interesting workflow if you are used to do something and use cmd-L as a fast way to undo changes

I wasn't even knowing about cmd-L existence, how anybody knows about it?

If you ask me what I do for the same case, I'm used to go to method versions and revert to the desired one


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Re: Do you want to accept???????? Discard???????

Igor Stasenko



On 12 January 2014 21:07, Sebastian Sastre <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Jan 12, 2014, at 5:53 PM, Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]> wrote:

And modal popups is clearly against this principle. 
Because they
a) make you think
b) draw your energy from what you really should be thinking on..

so please explain, how adding yes/no popup to cmd-L command handling helps maintaining this principle better. 

Some designers think that dialogs (stateful interfaces) are the enemy of usability, and I'm in favor of using them as last resort. Also because users in general, not only programmers, have hard feelings about dialogs

What I wasn't checking (lack of usability tests I'm watching you... yet.. again...) was which workflow exactly were you talking about.

The cmd-L contains explicit information about discarding changes so asking confirmation is unnecessary.

Thanks!
:)
 
(I thought you were talking about changing focus or the selected method on a browser and discarding changes without asking, sorry if I confused you).

Usability tests solves all this and a lot more in half a second.

Ok, I'm experimenting a little here and 

A) Cmd-L is something hidden enough to not be seen by newcomers and
B) I get that you can produce an interesting workflow if you are used to do something and use cmd-L as a fast way to undo changes

I wasn't even knowing about cmd-L existence, how anybody knows about it?

i don't know. i discovered this function back when i met the squeak in 2006..
which btw, frees me from dealing with popups when i start editing the method, but then realizing that this is wrong method or no change is required.
Pressing Cmd-L marks text as unmodified, which is important, because if it is modified,
then it will throw yes/no popup into your face if you try to navigate away from it.

how i discovered it? by holding cmd key and pressing all keys in order.

 
If you ask me what I do for the same case, I'm used to go to method versions and revert to the desired one





--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.
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Re: Do you want to accept???????? Discard???????

sebastianconcept@gmail.co

On Jan 12, 2014, at 6:57 PM, Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]> wrote:

how i discovered it? by holding cmd key and pressing all keys in order.

LOL  

XD
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Re: Do you want to accept???????? Discard???????

Sven Van Caekenberghe-2

On 12 Jan 2014, at 22:42, Sebastian Sastre <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Jan 12, 2014, at 6:57 PM, Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]> wrote:

how i discovered it? by holding cmd key and pressing all keys in order.

LOL  

XD

Cancel is next to Accept in almost any Edit menu, with the command keys L and S respectively. You should have seen this the moment you started coding:


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Re: Do you want to accept???????? Discard???????

Benjamin Van Ryseghem (Pharo)
Also, if you open Squeak by example, the first pages (if not written directly on the cover) are the list of the shortcuts
Some disappeared, but most of them still exists (and are hidden :P)

The latest I discovered (will refactoring the text editor shortcuts): cmd+y
It the equivalent of ctrl+t in emacs, aka transposing two characters

(if you ask why $y, I would say why not :P)

Ben

On 12 Jan 2014, at 18:59, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote:


On 12 Jan 2014, at 22:42, Sebastian Sastre <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Jan 12, 2014, at 6:57 PM, Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]> wrote:

how i discovered it? by holding cmd key and pressing all keys in order.

LOL  

XD

Cancel is next to Accept in almost any Edit menu, with the command keys L and S respectively. You should have seen this the moment you started coding:

<Screen Shot 2014-01-12 at 22.57.00.png>


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Re: Do you want to accept???????? Discard???????

sebastianconcept@gmail.co
In reply to this post by Sven Van Caekenberghe-2

On Jan 12, 2014, at 7:59 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote:

Cancel is next to Accept in almost any Edit menu, with the command keys L and S respectively. You should have seen this the moment you started coding:

This comment brings something interesting to add to the discussion and, Sven, you might not have said that in this way but, with your permission, I want to point out this only to leave a record for all of us to reflect.

you see... the problem with what should or shouldn't have the user seen, is that it suggest the user is under evaluation.

Worst, it suggest a dualistic way to evaluate it.

Is not the user who is under evaluation.

It's your product's success in helping the user to do some task with less resistance.

The way you evaluate usability is in observing the resistance points (UI fails), or absence of it (UI successes) on tasks the user is trying to achieve.

Of course our challenge and opportunity is in embracing this and take a deep breath to resist the temptation to appeal to any of these:

Pharo rocks and, as all products, has space for improvements (I can give quite some feedback about that menu BTW)

What we have here, is an opportunity to put some love in its user experience to make it more awesome for more people

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Re: Do you want to accept???????? Discard???????

Igor Stasenko
In reply to this post by Sven Van Caekenberghe-2
why you showing me pharo menu? at time i discovered and started using this command menu was looking
completely different and it was Squeak :)

but thanks.. right. actually cmd-L is shortcut for cancel command, which always been there :)


On 12 January 2014 22:59, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 12 Jan 2014, at 22:42, Sebastian Sastre <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Jan 12, 2014, at 6:57 PM, Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]> wrote:

how i discovered it? by holding cmd key and pressing all keys in order.

LOL  

XD

Cancel is next to Accept in almost any Edit menu, with the command keys L and S respectively. You should have seen this the moment you started coding:





--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.
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Re: Do you want to accept???????? Discard???????

Sven Van Caekenberghe-2
In reply to this post by sebastianconcept@gmail.co

On 13 Jan 2014, at 01:12, Sebastian Sastre <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On Jan 12, 2014, at 7:59 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Cancel is next to Accept in almost any Edit menu, with the command keys L and S respectively. You should have seen this the moment you started coding:
>
> This comment brings something interesting to add to the discussion and, Sven, you might not have said that in this way but, with your permission, I want to point out this only to leave a record for all of us to reflect.
>
> you see... the problem with what should or shouldn't have the user seen, is that it suggest the user is under evaluation.
>
> Worst, it suggest a dualistic way to evaluate it.
>
> Is not the user who is under evaluation.
>
> It's your product's success in helping the user to do some task with less resistance.
>
> The way you evaluate usability is in observing the resistance points (UI fails), or absence of it (UI successes) on tasks the user is trying to achieve.
>
> Of course our challenge and opportunity is in embracing this and take a deep breath to resist the temptation to appeal to any of these:
> http://www.satinderrana.com/blog/2010/07/top-20-excuses-for-broken-code-by-a-software-engineer/
>
> Pharo rocks and, as all products, has space for improvements (I can give quite some feedback about that menu BTW)
>
> What we have here, is an opportunity to put some love in its user experience to make it more awesome for more people
>
> sebastian
>
> o/

Please do, Sebastian, start discussing about ways to improve the basic UI, you seem to have an interest in the subject. It will of course be quite hard with so many opinions.

Sven



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Re: Do you want to accept???????? Discard???????

philippeback
Cmd-L... of course one has to know why it is there in the first place. 

And no dialog or undo is needed. Why not put the content in the clipboard and be done with it? I am doing select all and copy before some Cmd-L. 

Oops didn't wanted to spawn further discussion... Just that it is the way I use it now. 

On Monday, January 13, 2014, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote:

On 13 Jan 2014, at 01:12, Sebastian Sastre <<a href="javascript:;" onclick="_e(event, &#39;cvml&#39;, &#39;sebastian@flowingconcept.com&#39;)">sebastian@...> wrote:

>
> On Jan 12, 2014, at 7:59 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <<a href="javascript:;" onclick="_e(event, &#39;cvml&#39;, &#39;sven@stfx.eu&#39;)">sven@...> wrote:
>
>> Cancel is next to Accept in almost any Edit menu, with the command keys L and S respectively. You should have seen this the moment you started coding:
>
> This comment brings something interesting to add to the discussion and, Sven, you might not have said that in this way but, with your permission, I want to point out this only to leave a record for all of us to reflect.
>
> you see... the problem with what should or shouldn't have the user seen, is that it suggest the user is under evaluation.
>
> Worst, it suggest a dualistic way to evaluate it.
>
> Is not the user who is under evaluation.
>
> It's your product's success in helping the user to do some task with less resistance.
>
> The way you evaluate usability is in observing the resistance points (UI fails), or absence of it (UI successes) on tasks the user is trying to achieve.
>
> Of course our challenge and opportunity is in embracing this and take a deep breath to resist the temptation to appeal to any of these:
> http://www.satinderrana.com/blog/2010/07/top-20-excuses-for-broken-code-by-a-software-engineer/
>
> Pharo rocks and, as all products, has space for improvements (I can give quite some feedback about that menu BTW)
>
> What we have here, is an opportunity to put some love in its user experience to make it more awesome for more people
>
> sebastian
>
> o/

Please do, Sebastian, start discussing about ways to improve the basic UI, you seem to have an interest in the subject. It will of course be quite hard with so many opinions.

Sven





--
---
Philippe Back
Dramatic Performance Improvements
Mob: +32(0) 478 650 140 | Fax: +32 (0) 70 408 027
Blog: http://philippeback.be | Twitter: @philippeback

High Octane SPRL
rue cour Boisacq 101 | 1301 Bierges | Belgium

Pharo Consortium Member - http://consortium.pharo.org/
Featured on the Software Process and Measurement Cast - http://spamcast.libsyn.com
Sparx Systems Enterprise Architect and Ability Engineering EADocX Value Added Reseller
 


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Re: Do you want to accept???????? Discard???????

sebastianconcept@gmail.co
In reply to this post by Sven Van Caekenberghe-2
On Jan 13, 2014, at 4:21 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote:

Please do, Sebastian, start discussing about ways to improve the basic UI, you seem to have an interest in the subject. It will of course be quite hard with so many opinions.

Yeah, I get what you mean but that's hard only if we stay speculating on opinions instead of experiments and tests and data.

One or two experiments solves any UI dispute in an afternoon (ok maybe two).

The least I can do is to help our community to get our discussion started.

Probably as a naive attempt towards those experiments.

So question, I am the only one interested in an improved Pharo user experience?

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Re: Do you want to accept???????? Discard???????

EstebanLM

On 13 Jan 2014, at 12:56, Sebastian Sastre <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Jan 13, 2014, at 4:21 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote:

Please do, Sebastian, start discussing about ways to improve the basic UI, you seem to have an interest in the subject. It will of course be quite hard with so many opinions.

Yeah, I get what you mean but that's hard only if we stay speculating on opinions instead of experiments and tests and data.

One or two experiments solves any UI dispute in an afternoon (ok maybe two).

The least I can do is to help our community to get our discussion started.

Probably as a naive attempt towards those experiments.

So question, I am the only one interested in an improved Pharo user experience?

of course not :)


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Re: Do you want to accept???????? Discard???????

Marcus Denker-4
In reply to this post by sebastianconcept@gmail.co

On 13 Jan 2014, at 12:56, Sebastian Sastre <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Jan 13, 2014, at 4:21 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote:

Please do, Sebastian, start discussing about ways to improve the basic UI, you seem to have an interest in the subject. It will of course be quite hard with so many opinions.

Yeah, I get what you mean but that's hard only if we stay speculating on opinions instead of experiments and tests and data.

One or two experiments solves any UI dispute in an afternoon (ok maybe two).

The least I can do is to help our community to get our discussion started.

Probably as a naive attempt towards those experiments.

So question, I am the only one interested in an improved Pharo user experience?


No….  but what I have learned is that any change, even to the good, will be very hard
to do because people are very much defined by habits. So do not expect the existing users to be 
happy… it’s sad but it is like that.

The way to make progress is (to somme extend) listen to these complaints and then to just ignore them ;-)
(Else Pharo browsers would be eye-cancer inducing green… and there are I am sure still people who
would argue that this was better with green windows ;-)

Marcus

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Re: Do you want to accept???????? Discard???????

sebastianconcept@gmail.co

On Jan 13, 2014, at 10:25 AM, Marcus Denker <[hidden email]> wrote:

No….  but what I have learned is that any change, even to the good, will be very hard
to do because people are very much defined by habits. So do not expect the existing users to be 
happy… it’s sad but it is like that.

The way to make progress is (to somme extend) listen to these complaints and then to just ignore them ;-)
(Else Pharo browsers would be eye-cancer inducing green… and there are I am sure still people who
would argue that this was better with green windows ;-)

haha yeah  XD

the good thing about the tests is that you can listen to the complains of who doesn't like it and still have you A/B test results to backup your UI design decisions and...

A) they don't or
B) they do (so they're transformed in a helping effort) <- unlikely but cool if happens

So yeah, you won't conform everybody's taste but you'll improve the general User Experience in a demonstrable way

So how do we start?

:D



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Re: Do you want to accept???????? Discard???????

Sven Van Caekenberghe-2

On 13 Jan 2014, at 13:54, Sebastian Sastre <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On Jan 13, 2014, at 10:25 AM, Marcus Denker <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> No….  but what I have learned is that any change, even to the good, will be very hard
>> to do because people are very much defined by habits. So do not expect the existing users to be
>> happy… it’s sad but it is like that.
>>
>> The way to make progress is (to somme extend) listen to these complaints and then to just ignore them ;-)
>> (Else Pharo browsers would be eye-cancer inducing green… and there are I am sure still people who
>> would argue that this was better with green windows ;-)
>
> haha yeah  XD
>
> the good thing about the tests is that you can listen to the complains of who doesn't like it and still have you A/B test results to backup your UI design decisions and...
>
> A) they don't or
> B) they do (so they're transformed in a helping effort) <- unlikely but cool if happens
>
> So yeah, you won't conform everybody's taste but you'll improve the general User Experience in a demonstrable way
>
> So how do we start?

One small step at a time.

Pick one aspect and try to fix it.
Highlight the problem, propose a solution, get some consensus, apply.

Repeat.


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Re: Do you want to accept???????? Discard???????

Goubier Thierry


Le 13/01/2014 13:58, Sven Van Caekenberghe a écrit :

>>
>> So how do we start?
>
> One small step at a time.
>
> Pick one aspect and try to fix it.
> Highlight the problem, propose a solution, get some consensus, apply.
>
> Repeat.
>

If you don't get consensus, still try it. If it works for you and is
good enough, someone else may find a way to use it in another way or in
another place. You may also be exercizing the underlying framework in
different ways and improve the base code we're all relying on.

Thierry
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