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On Jan 12, 2014, at 1:49 PM, "Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 [via Smalltalk]" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Sorry, but it feels there are two discussion mixed: > - if there is an unaccepted edit, it should not be lost, so we need a dialog, undo or history Clearly > - if you explicitly cancel an edit, there should not be a dialog, because you just said you want to cancel Yes, and it's the "explicit" where the disagreement comes in. People are saying that closeThisBrowserWindow ~= explicitlyDiscardEdits. Therefore, for them, removing the popup without providing a way to get the code back doesn't work.
Cheers,
Sean |
In reply to this post by Sven Van Caekenberghe-2
On Jan 12, 2014, at 4:48 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote: - if there is an unaccepted edit, it should not be lost, so we need a dialog, undo or history Yes, that's the goal. And as far as I can see the cheapest solution (to get the best of both worlds*) is implementing a setting option to prevent dialogs on focus loss. It might be another better more costly solutions though. * by both worlds I mean A) newcomers B) veterans if you reward too much only veterans you'll make Pharo a sub-sub-sub-niche environment (one that assumes you already are addicted to compensate the UI vices of it) |
In reply to this post by Sven Van Caekenberghe-2
On 12 January 2014 19:48, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote: Sorry, but it feels there are two discussion mixed: That is how I understand what Igor says, and that is also my opinion. Exactly. I pressing Cmd-L, because i *want* all changes to be lost.
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko. |
In reply to this post by sebastianconcept@gmail.co
On 12 January 2014 20:05, Sebastian Sastre <[hidden email]> wrote: Because they
i'm not sure i understand now, in relation to what you mentioned it.. because .. (read below)
And modal popups is clearly against this principle. a) make you think b) draw your energy from what you really should be thinking on.. so please explain, how adding yes/no popup to cmd-L command handling helps maintaining this principle better. -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko. |
In reply to this post by sebastianconcept@gmail.co
On 12 January 2014 20:11, Sebastian Sastre <[hidden email]> wrote:
I don't care about cost of solution because this is secondary to long standing principles: - do not mode me in (c). ever. because principles should come first.
Not at all.. all you need is to change single method: MorphicUIManager>>confirm: aStringOrText "Answer true. This was a modal question dialog, to which user was always responding yes." ^ true
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko. |
In reply to this post by Igor Stasenko
On Jan 12, 2014, at 5:53 PM, Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]> wrote:
Some designers think that dialogs (stateful interfaces) are the enemy of usability, and I'm in favor of using them as last resort. Also because users in general, not only programmers, have hard feelings about dialogs What I wasn't checking (lack of usability tests I'm watching you... yet.. again...) was which workflow exactly were you talking about. The cmd-L contains explicit information about discarding changes so asking confirmation is unnecessary. (I thought you were talking about changing focus or the selected method on a browser and discarding changes without asking, sorry if I confused you). Usability tests solves all this and a lot more in half a second. Ok, I'm experimenting a little here and A) Cmd-L is something hidden enough to not be seen by newcomers and B) I get that you can produce an interesting workflow if you are used to do something and use cmd-L as a fast way to undo changes I wasn't even knowing about cmd-L existence, how anybody knows about it? If you ask me what I do for the same case, I'm used to go to method versions and revert to the desired one |
On 12 January 2014 21:07, Sebastian Sastre <[hidden email]> wrote:
Thanks! :)
i don't know. i discovered this function back when i met the squeak in 2006.. which btw, frees me from dealing with popups when i start editing the method, but then realizing that this is wrong method or no change is required. Pressing Cmd-L marks text as unmodified, which is important, because if it is modified, then it will throw yes/no popup into your face if you try to navigate away from it. how i discovered it? by holding cmd key and pressing all keys in order.
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko. |
On Jan 12, 2014, at 6:57 PM, Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]> wrote: how i discovered it? by holding cmd key and pressing all keys in order. LOL XD
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On 12 Jan 2014, at 22:42, Sebastian Sastre <[hidden email]> wrote: On Jan 12, 2014, at 6:57 PM, Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]> wrote:how i discovered it? by holding cmd key and pressing all keys in order. Cancel is next to Accept in almost any Edit menu, with the command keys L and S respectively. You should have seen this the moment you started coding: |
Also, if you open Squeak by example, the first pages (if not written directly on the cover) are the list of the shortcuts
Some disappeared, but most of them still exists (and are hidden :P) The latest I discovered (will refactoring the text editor shortcuts): cmd+y It the equivalent of ctrl+t in emacs, aka transposing two characters (if you ask why $y, I would say why not :P) Ben On 12 Jan 2014, at 18:59, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote:
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In reply to this post by Sven Van Caekenberghe-2
On Jan 12, 2014, at 7:59 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote: Cancel is next to Accept in almost any Edit menu, with the command keys L and S respectively. You should have seen this the moment you started coding: This comment brings something interesting to add to the discussion and, Sven, you might not have said that in this way but, with your permission, I want to point out this only to leave a record for all of us to reflect. you see... the problem with what should or shouldn't have the user seen, is that it suggest the user is under evaluation. Worst, it suggest a dualistic way to evaluate it. Is not the user who is under evaluation. It's your product's success in helping the user to do some task with less resistance. The way you evaluate usability is in observing the resistance points (UI fails), or absence of it (UI successes) on tasks the user is trying to achieve. Of course our challenge and opportunity is in embracing this and take a deep breath to resist the temptation to appeal to any of these: Pharo rocks and, as all products, has space for improvements (I can give quite some feedback about that menu BTW) What we have here, is an opportunity to put some love in its user experience to make it more awesome for more people |
In reply to this post by Sven Van Caekenberghe-2
why you showing me pharo menu? at time i discovered and started using this command menu was looking completely different and it was Squeak :)On 12 January 2014 22:59, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote:
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko. |
In reply to this post by sebastianconcept@gmail.co
On 13 Jan 2014, at 01:12, Sebastian Sastre <[hidden email]> wrote: > > On Jan 12, 2014, at 7:59 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote: > >> Cancel is next to Accept in almost any Edit menu, with the command keys L and S respectively. You should have seen this the moment you started coding: > > This comment brings something interesting to add to the discussion and, Sven, you might not have said that in this way but, with your permission, I want to point out this only to leave a record for all of us to reflect. > > you see... the problem with what should or shouldn't have the user seen, is that it suggest the user is under evaluation. > > Worst, it suggest a dualistic way to evaluate it. > > Is not the user who is under evaluation. > > It's your product's success in helping the user to do some task with less resistance. > > The way you evaluate usability is in observing the resistance points (UI fails), or absence of it (UI successes) on tasks the user is trying to achieve. > > Of course our challenge and opportunity is in embracing this and take a deep breath to resist the temptation to appeal to any of these: > http://www.satinderrana.com/blog/2010/07/top-20-excuses-for-broken-code-by-a-software-engineer/ > > Pharo rocks and, as all products, has space for improvements (I can give quite some feedback about that menu BTW) > > What we have here, is an opportunity to put some love in its user experience to make it more awesome for more people > > sebastian > > o/ Please do, Sebastian, start discussing about ways to improve the basic UI, you seem to have an interest in the subject. It will of course be quite hard with so many opinions. Sven |
Cmd-L... of course one has to know why it is there in the first place.
And no dialog or undo is needed. Why not put the content in the clipboard and be done with it? I am doing select all and copy before some Cmd-L.
Oops didn't wanted to spawn further discussion... Just that it is the way I use it now. On Monday, January 13, 2014, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote:
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In reply to this post by Sven Van Caekenberghe-2
On Jan 13, 2014, at 4:21 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote: Please do, Sebastian, start discussing about ways to improve the basic UI, you seem to have an interest in the subject. It will of course be quite hard with so many opinions. Yeah, I get what you mean but that's hard only if we stay speculating on opinions instead of experiments and tests and data. One or two experiments solves any UI dispute in an afternoon (ok maybe two). The least I can do is to help our community to get our discussion started. Probably as a naive attempt towards those experiments. So question, I am the only one interested in an improved Pharo user experience? |
On 13 Jan 2014, at 12:56, Sebastian Sastre <[hidden email]> wrote:
of course not :) |
In reply to this post by sebastianconcept@gmail.co
On 13 Jan 2014, at 12:56, Sebastian Sastre <[hidden email]> wrote:
No…. but what I have learned is that any change, even to the good, will be very hard to do because people are very much defined by habits. So do not expect the existing users to be happy… it’s sad but it is like that. The way to make progress is (to somme extend) listen to these complaints and then to just ignore them ;-) (Else Pharo browsers would be eye-cancer inducing green… and there are I am sure still people who would argue that this was better with green windows ;-) Marcus |
On Jan 13, 2014, at 10:25 AM, Marcus Denker <[hidden email]> wrote:
haha yeah XD the good thing about the tests is that you can listen to the complains of who doesn't like it and still have you A/B test results to backup your UI design decisions and... A) they don't or B) they do (so they're transformed in a helping effort) <- unlikely but cool if happens So yeah, you won't conform everybody's taste but you'll improve the general User Experience in a demonstrable way So how do we start? :D |
On 13 Jan 2014, at 13:54, Sebastian Sastre <[hidden email]> wrote: > > On Jan 13, 2014, at 10:25 AM, Marcus Denker <[hidden email]> wrote: > >> No…. but what I have learned is that any change, even to the good, will be very hard >> to do because people are very much defined by habits. So do not expect the existing users to be >> happy… it’s sad but it is like that. >> >> The way to make progress is (to somme extend) listen to these complaints and then to just ignore them ;-) >> (Else Pharo browsers would be eye-cancer inducing green… and there are I am sure still people who >> would argue that this was better with green windows ;-) > > haha yeah XD > > the good thing about the tests is that you can listen to the complains of who doesn't like it and still have you A/B test results to backup your UI design decisions and... > > A) they don't or > B) they do (so they're transformed in a helping effort) <- unlikely but cool if happens > > So yeah, you won't conform everybody's taste but you'll improve the general User Experience in a demonstrable way > > So how do we start? One small step at a time. Pick one aspect and try to fix it. Highlight the problem, propose a solution, get some consensus, apply. Repeat. |
Le 13/01/2014 13:58, Sven Van Caekenberghe a écrit : >> >> So how do we start? > > One small step at a time. > > Pick one aspect and try to fix it. > Highlight the problem, propose a solution, get some consensus, apply. > > Repeat. > If you don't get consensus, still try it. If it works for you and is good enough, someone else may find a way to use it in another way or in another place. You may also be exercizing the underlying framework in different ways and improve the base code we're all relying on. Thierry -- Thierry Goubier CEA list Laboratoire des Fondations des Systèmes Temps Réel Embarqués 91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex France Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92 / 83 95 |
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