Do you want to accept???????? Discard???????

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Do you want to accept???????? Discard???????

Sean P. DeNigris
Administrator
I still have these un-interact-able pop ups following me around endlessly when I have unaccepted edits in Nautilus. It seems intermittent. Not sure how exactly to reproduce… Anyone else?

b.t.w. the secret seems to be to bring up halos on the pop-up and clicking the (x) halo. Trying to click its buttons only makes it angry
Cheers,
Sean
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Re: Do you want to accept???????? Discard???????

Sean P. DeNigris
Administrator
Pharo3.0
Latest update: #30678

This seems reproducible:
1. In Nautilus, browse a class that has a class comment
2. Bring up the comment pane
3. Edit the comment
4. Click the "Class side" checkbox

Also (don't know if it's related):
1. In Nautilus, browse a class that has a class comment
2. Bring up the comment pane
3. Edit the comment
4. Click the "Comment" button
5. Choose discard
6. Click the "Comment" button again *** It seems as if the changes were accepted instead of discarded, but…
7. Click the "Class side" checkbox *** Now the comment is reverted to the original, so it seems the changes were indeed discarded. I guess the problem is keeping the comment pane in sync with the model…

Ben, should I open issues for these? If so, separately or as one report?
Cheers,
Sean
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Re: Do you want to accept???????? Discard???????

Igor Stasenko
In reply to this post by Sean P. DeNigris
i want to discard. discard this modal thingies altogether..
and we did that with Ben, but then people turned their nose against it and rolled back the change.


On 8 January 2014 17:02, Sean P. DeNigris <[hidden email]> wrote:
I still have these un-interact-able pop ups following me around endlessly
when I have unaccepted edits in Nautilus. It seems intermittent. Not sure
how exactly to reproduce… Anyone else?

b.t.w. the secret seems to be to bring up halos on the pop-up and clicking
the (x) halo. Trying to click its buttons only makes it angry



-----
Cheers,
Sean
--
View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Do-you-want-to-accept-Discard-tp4735220.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.




--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.
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Re: Do you want to accept???????? Discard???????

kilon
I don't like an app that does not ask for my confirmation , because I tend to do a lot of stupid mistakes along the way and I want to be able to fix everyone of them even before they happen. Please don't remove that, that would be reason enough for me to stop using Pharo. 

Undo also wont do, because I dont always realise my mistakes until much later on. And having to undo all my work to fix a stupid mistake is a nightmare. The only thing that would make sense for removing confirmation dialogs is editable action history. Take a look at Photoshop. Some 3d apps also have something similar.  Every action is recorded at a history ( a list) and there is a gui that allow you to remove individual actions without deleting or affecting other actions. Very cool stuff. 


On Wednesday, 8 January 2014, 11:44, Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]> wrote:
i want to discard. discard this modal thingies altogether..
and we did that with Ben, but then people turned their nose against it and rolled back the change.


On 8 January 2014 17:02, Sean P. DeNigris <[hidden email]> wrote:
I still have these un-interact-able pop ups following me around endlessly
when I have unaccepted edits in Nautilus. It seems intermittent. Not sure
how exactly to reproduce… Anyone else?

b.t.w. the secret seems to be to bring up halos on the pop-up and clicking
the (x) halo. Trying to click its buttons only makes it angry



-----
Cheers,
Sean
--
View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Do-you-want-to-accept-Discard-tp4735220.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.




--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.


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Re: Do you want to accept???????? Discard???????

Sean P. DeNigris
Administrator
kilon wrote
The only thing that would make sense for removing confirmation dialogs is editable action history. Take a look at Photoshop. Some 3d apps also have something similar.  Every action is recorded at a history ( a list) and there is a gui that allow you to remove individual actions without deleting or affecting other actions. Very cool stuff. 
Yes! That would be a dream. I was thinking last night that undo could be a tree from high level concepts down to individual actions. Something like:
- edit #aMethod
  - paste
  - delete
    - backspace
    - backspace
- edit #anotherMethod
  - …

kilon wrote
Undo also wont do, because I dont always realise my mistakes until much later on. And having to undo all my work to fix a stupid mistake is a nightmare.
Certainly it seems too harsh to throw away without any notification. For now, I think the sweet spot for most people would be undo + non-instrusive notification. Maybe an undo list like "Workspace previous contents" and a Growl notification. If someone reaaaally needs the confirmation, we could have a setting, but we're talking about a single method pane's edits - overkill IMHO...
Cheers,
Sean
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Re: Do you want to accept???????? Discard???????

Goubier Thierry
Sean, kilon,

in fact Pharo has some of that, through RB and it's ability to undo / redo code change actions and combine them. I did for AltBrowser move to RB actions instead of the usual ones for some code related commands (class remove, class rename) and added a generic "undo" command with the RB related one, but I stopped halfway through it with totally unfriendly names for the undo commands (not fun to have a 100 characters + description of the undo in a menu item !) and lazyness in reworking some operations (method change) so as to integrate them as a RB operation transparently. My knowledge of the RB commands isn't good enough also to understand all the possibilities if we have a GUI associated.

At least I do have a class remove without a confirmation dialog ;) and a possible undo.

Once we'll have something like EPICEA integrated, I guess we will be able to do that in most cases for code related actions as well.

Sean, I like what you described with Growl. This could prove very nice and sleek to have.

Thierry
________________________________________
De : Pharo-dev [[hidden email]] de la part de Sean P. DeNigris [[hidden email]]
Date d'envoi : mercredi 8 janvier 2014 22:22
À : [hidden email]
Objet : Re: [Pharo-dev] Do you want to accept???????? Discard???????

kilon wrote
> The only thing that would make sense for removing confirmation dialogs is
> editable action history. Take a look at Photoshop. Some 3d apps also have
> something similar.  Every action is recorded at a history ( a list) and
> there is a gui that allow you to remove individual actions without
> deleting or affecting other actions. Very cool stuff.

Yes! That would be a dream. I was thinking last night that undo could be a
tree from high level concepts down to individual actions. Something like:
- edit #aMethod
  - paste
  - delete
    - backspace
    - backspace
- edit #anotherMethod
  - …


kilon wrote
> Undo also wont do, because I dont always realise my mistakes until much
> later on. And having to undo all my work to fix a stupid mistake is a
> nightmare.

Certainly it seems too harsh to throw away without any notification. For
now, I think the sweet spot for most people would be undo + non-instrusive
notification. Maybe an undo list like "Workspace previous contents" and a
Growl notification. If someone reaaaally needs the confirmation, we could
have a setting, but we're talking about a single method pane's edits -
overkill IMHO...



-----
Cheers,
Sean
--
View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Do-you-want-to-accept-Discard-tp4735220p4735268.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


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Re: Do you want to accept???????? Discard???????

kilon
In reply to this post by Sean P. DeNigris
I am willing to compromise with Growl notifications, only , of course, if everything is undoable. 

Goubier , I am glad to hear that. That means we are closer than I thought to such very nice feature. I would love to implement such feature but currently I am learning Roassal and vector graphics and it would not be much use to jump from one idea to another :) Who knows , maybe in the future, maybe not.  


On Wednesday, 8 January 2014, 13:22, Sean P. DeNigris <[hidden email]> wrote:
kilon wrote
> The only thing that would make sense for removing confirmation dialogs is
> editable action history. Take a look at Photoshop. Some 3d apps also have
> something similar.  Every action is recorded at a history ( a list) and
> there is a gui that allow you to remove individual actions without
> deleting or affecting other actions. Very cool stuff. 

Yes! That would be a dream. I was thinking last night that undo could be a
tree from high level concepts down to individual actions. Something like:
- edit #aMethod
  - paste
  - delete
    - backspace
    - backspace
- edit #anotherMethod
  - …


kilon wrote
> Undo also wont do, because I dont always realise my mistakes until much
> later on. And having to undo all my work to fix a stupid mistake is a
> nightmare.

Certainly it seems too harsh to throw away without any notification. For
now, I think the sweet spot for most people would be undo + non-instrusive
notification. Maybe an undo list like "Workspace previous contents" and a
Growl notification. If someone reaaaally needs the confirmation, we could
have a setting, but we're talking about a single method pane's edits -
overkill IMHO...



-----
Cheers,
Sean
--
View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Do-you-want-to-accept-Discard-tp4735220p4735268.html

Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


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Re: Do you want to accept???????? Discard???????

Nicolai Hess
In reply to this post by Sean P. DeNigris
2014/1/8 Sean P. DeNigris <[hidden email]>
Pharo3.0
Latest update: #30678

This seems reproducible:
1. In Nautilus, browse a class that has a class comment
2. Bring up the comment pane
3. Edit the comment
4. Click the "Class side" checkbox

Also (don't know if it's related):
1. In Nautilus, browse a class that has a class comment
2. Bring up the comment pane
3. Edit the comment
4. Click the "Comment" button
5. Choose discard
6. Click the "Comment" button again *** It seems as if the changes were
accepted instead of discarded, but…
7. Click the "Class side" checkbox *** Now the comment is reverted to the
original, so it seems the changes were indeed discarded. I guess the problem
is keeping the comment pane in sync with the model…

Ben, should I open issues for these? If so, separately or as one report?



-----
Cheers,
Sean
--
View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Do-you-want-to-accept-Discard-tp4735220p4735221.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


The same happens on editing code, without comment pane.
Select a method, change some code. Click the "Class-side" button.
The Question dialog appears.
I don't know exaclty why it opens another one if you click any buttons,
but maybe it is related to activ focus. If you drag the Question window,
the dialog buttons are working!

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Re: Do you want to accept???????? Discard???????

Igor Stasenko
In reply to this post by kilon



On 8 January 2014 22:04, dimitris chloupis <[hidden email]> wrote:
I don't like an app that does not ask for my confirmation , because I tend to do a lot of stupid mistakes along the way and I want to be able to fix everyone of them even before they happen. Please don't remove that, that would be reason enough for me to stop using Pharo. 

for stupid mistakes, there's (or should be , if missing) - undo.

Another recipe: just don't make mistakes :)
 
Undo also wont do, because I dont always realise my mistakes until much later on.

sorry.. but then perhaps you should find different occupation? :)
computers (and software systems we writing) will never be smart enough to predict or prevent you from doing mistakes. putting 'are you really really sure?' popups everywhere doesn't helps but just serves as a distraction.. because at certain point, your reaction on these popups become completely mechanical and just cost you extra time and no cognitive load only a distraction.

at the end, it is just silly: the point is that i am always sure about things i do, when interacting with my computer. if i'm not, i simply don't (or i save and then proceed with caution).. and in any case, i don't need stupid UI asking me about things i already decided to do (yes i am sort of man, who disables file deletion warning, if it provided).
 
when you pushing gas pedal in your car, or brakes, are there also popups which freezes your feet and asks to press yes or no before proceed?
because wrong decision could cost you much more - your own life.

And having to undo all my work to fix a stupid mistake is a nightmare. The only thing that would make sense for removing confirmation dialogs is editable action history. Take a look at Photoshop. Some 3d apps also have something similar.  Every action is recorded at a history ( a list) and there is a gui that allow you to remove individual actions without deleting or affecting other actions. Very cool stuff. 

that what we did with Ben: there is navigation history, where you can find unsaved changes. but people prefer popping up red herrings instead.


 

On Wednesday, 8 January 2014, 11:44, Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]> wrote:
i want to discard. discard this modal thingies altogether..
and we did that with Ben, but then people turned their nose against it and rolled back the change.


On 8 January 2014 17:02, Sean P. DeNigris <[hidden email]> wrote:
I still have these un-interact-able pop ups following me around endlessly
when I have unaccepted edits in Nautilus. It seems intermittent. Not sure
how exactly to reproduce… Anyone else?

b.t.w. the secret seems to be to bring up halos on the pop-up and clicking
the (x) halo. Trying to click its buttons only makes it angry



-----
Cheers,
Sean
--
View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Do-you-want-to-accept-Discard-tp4735220.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.




--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.





--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.
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Re: Do you want to accept???????? Discard???????

sebastianconcept@gmail.co
In reply to this post by kilon

+1

you simply don't get onboard boats that doesn't have lifesaver boats


On Jan 8, 2014, at 7:04 PM, dimitris chloupis <[hidden email]> wrote:

I don't like an app that does not ask for my confirmation , because I tend to do a lot of stupid mistakes along the way and I want to be able to fix everyone of them even before they happen. Please don't remove that, that would be reason enough for me to stop using Pharo. 

Undo also wont do, because I dont always realise my mistakes until much later on. And having to undo all my work to fix a stupid mistake is a nightmare. The only thing that would make sense for removing confirmation dialogs is editable action history. Take a look at Photoshop. Some 3d apps also have something similar.  Every action is recorded at a history ( a list) and there is a gui that allow you to remove individual actions without deleting or affecting other actions. Very cool stuff. 


On Wednesday, 8 January 2014, 11:44, Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]> wrote:
i want to discard. discard this modal thingies altogether..
and we did that with Ben, but then people turned their nose against it and rolled back the change.


On 8 January 2014 17:02, Sean P. DeNigris <[hidden email]> wrote:
I still have these un-interact-able pop ups following me around endlessly
when I have unaccepted edits in Nautilus. It seems intermittent. Not sure
how exactly to reproduce… Anyone else?

b.t.w. the secret seems to be to bring up halos on the pop-up and clicking
the (x) halo. Trying to click its buttons only makes it angry



-----
Cheers,
Sean
--
View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Do-you-want-to-accept-Discard-tp4735220.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.




--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.



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Re: Do you want to accept???????? Discard???????

Nicolai Hess
In reply to this post by Igor Stasenko

2014/1/9 Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]>



On 8 January 2014 22:04, dimitris chloupis <[hidden email]> wrote:
I don't like an app that does not ask for my confirmation , because I tend to do a lot of stupid mistakes along the way and I want to be able to fix everyone of them even before they happen. Please don't remove that, that would be reason enough for me to stop using Pharo. 

for stupid mistakes, there's (or should be , if missing) - undo.

Another recipe: just don't make mistakes :)
 
Undo also wont do, because I dont always realise my mistakes until much later on.

sorry.. but then perhaps you should find different occupation? :)
computers (and software systems we writing) will never be smart enough to predict or prevent you from doing mistakes. putting 'are you really really sure?' popups everywhere doesn't helps but just serves as a distraction.. because at certain point, your reaction on these popups become completely mechanical and just cost you extra time and no cognitive load only a distraction.

at the end, it is just silly: the point is that i am always sure about things i do, when interacting with my computer. if i'm not, i simply don't (or i save and then proceed with caution).. and in any case, i don't need stupid UI asking me about things i already decided to do (yes i am sort of man, who disables file deletion warning, if it provided).
 
when you pushing gas pedal in your car, or brakes, are there also popups which freezes your feet and asks to press yes or no before proceed?
because wrong decision could cost you much more - your own life.

And having to undo all my work to fix a stupid mistake is a nightmare. The only thing that would make sense for removing confirmation dialogs is editable action history. Take a look at Photoshop. Some 3d apps also have something similar.  Every action is recorded at a history ( a list) and there is a gui that allow you to remove individual actions without deleting or affecting other actions. Very cool stuff. 

that what we did with Ben: there is navigation history, where you can find unsaved changes. but people prefer popping up red herrings instead.


 

On Wednesday, 8 January 2014, 11:44, Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]> wrote:
i want to discard. discard this modal thingies altogether..
and we did that with Ben, but then people turned their nose against it and rolled back the change.


On 8 January 2014 17:02, Sean P. DeNigris <[hidden email]> wrote:
I still have these un-interact-able pop ups following me around endlessly
when I have unaccepted edits in Nautilus. It seems intermittent. Not sure
how exactly to reproduce… Anyone else?

b.t.w. the secret seems to be to bring up halos on the pop-up and clicking
the (x) halo. Trying to click its buttons only makes it angry



-----
Cheers,
Sean
--
View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Do-you-want-to-accept-Discard-tp4735220.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.




--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.





--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.


I don't think we have to discuss what would be the better alternative. People have different preferences and different workflows.
Why don't we make a setting for this? Something like "Codepanes can discard edits", and let Nautilus and other
codepanes behave like the Workspace (I remember a  time when workspaces asked too before discarding edits)

About the editing history, most people said it is a good idea. The reason I reverted this back was not someone
doesn't like it. It just didn't worked.
As commented in the  bug case:
1. not alll interactions created an editing history entry.
2. throwing away the history on window closing was at leas unexpected for some users.
3. the history that was used for both, navigation and editing, is limited to 15 entries

Nicolai

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Re: Do you want to accept???????? Discard???????

Igor Stasenko



On 9 January 2014 08:50, Nicolai Hess <[hidden email]> wrote:

2014/1/9 Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]>



On 8 January 2014 22:04, dimitris chloupis <[hidden email]> wrote:
I don't like an app that does not ask for my confirmation , because I tend to do a lot of stupid mistakes along the way and I want to be able to fix everyone of them even before they happen. Please don't remove that, that would be reason enough for me to stop using Pharo. 

for stupid mistakes, there's (or should be , if missing) - undo.

Another recipe: just don't make mistakes :)
 
Undo also wont do, because I dont always realise my mistakes until much later on.

sorry.. but then perhaps you should find different occupation? :)
computers (and software systems we writing) will never be smart enough to predict or prevent you from doing mistakes. putting 'are you really really sure?' popups everywhere doesn't helps but just serves as a distraction.. because at certain point, your reaction on these popups become completely mechanical and just cost you extra time and no cognitive load only a distraction.

at the end, it is just silly: the point is that i am always sure about things i do, when interacting with my computer. if i'm not, i simply don't (or i save and then proceed with caution).. and in any case, i don't need stupid UI asking me about things i already decided to do (yes i am sort of man, who disables file deletion warning, if it provided).
 
when you pushing gas pedal in your car, or brakes, are there also popups which freezes your feet and asks to press yes or no before proceed?
because wrong decision could cost you much more - your own life.

And having to undo all my work to fix a stupid mistake is a nightmare. The only thing that would make sense for removing confirmation dialogs is editable action history. Take a look at Photoshop. Some 3d apps also have something similar.  Every action is recorded at a history ( a list) and there is a gui that allow you to remove individual actions without deleting or affecting other actions. Very cool stuff. 

that what we did with Ben: there is navigation history, where you can find unsaved changes. but people prefer popping up red herrings instead.


 

On Wednesday, 8 January 2014, 11:44, Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]> wrote:
i want to discard. discard this modal thingies altogether..
and we did that with Ben, but then people turned their nose against it and rolled back the change.


On 8 January 2014 17:02, Sean P. DeNigris <[hidden email]> wrote:
I still have these un-interact-able pop ups following me around endlessly
when I have unaccepted edits in Nautilus. It seems intermittent. Not sure
how exactly to reproduce… Anyone else?

b.t.w. the secret seems to be to bring up halos on the pop-up and clicking
the (x) halo. Trying to click its buttons only makes it angry



-----
Cheers,
Sean
--
View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Do-you-want-to-accept-Discard-tp4735220.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.




--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.





--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.


I don't think we have to discuss what would be the better alternative. People have different preferences and different workflows.
Why don't we make a setting for this? Something like "Codepanes can discard edits", and let Nautilus and other
codepanes behave like the Workspace (I remember a  time when workspaces asked too before discarding edits)

About the editing history, most people said it is a good idea. The reason I reverted this back was not someone
doesn't like it. It just didn't worked.
As commented in the  bug case:
1. not alll interactions created an editing history entry.
2. throwing away the history on window closing was at leas unexpected for some users.
3. the history that was used for both, navigation and editing, is limited to 15 entries

.. and instead of fixing the above things was thrown away.
We will never have good UI if we will use such strategy to develop it.

Nicolai




--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.
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Re: Do you want to accept???????? Discard???????

Sven Van Caekenberghe-2
The history hack did totally not work for end users, many people, including myself, lost code, often without noticing or understanding it at first.

This 'warning, you did not accept' is/was important and solid, if you want to replace that the solution should be really good - it was not.

Don't shoot on Nicolai, he tried to fix it, after asking around.

On 09 Jan 2014, at 10:27, Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
>
> On 9 January 2014 08:50, Nicolai Hess <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> 2014/1/9 Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]>
>
>
>
> On 8 January 2014 22:04, dimitris chloupis <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I don't like an app that does not ask for my confirmation , because I tend to do a lot of stupid mistakes along the way and I want to be able to fix everyone of them even before they happen. Please don't remove that, that would be reason enough for me to stop using Pharo.
>
> for stupid mistakes, there's (or should be , if missing) - undo.
>
> Another recipe: just don't make mistakes :)
>  
> Undo also wont do, because I dont always realise my mistakes until much later on.
>
> sorry.. but then perhaps you should find different occupation? :)
> computers (and software systems we writing) will never be smart enough to predict or prevent you from doing mistakes. putting 'are you really really sure?' popups everywhere doesn't helps but just serves as a distraction.. because at certain point, your reaction on these popups become completely mechanical and just cost you extra time and no cognitive load only a distraction.
>
> at the end, it is just silly: the point is that i am always sure about things i do, when interacting with my computer. if i'm not, i simply don't (or i save and then proceed with caution).. and in any case, i don't need stupid UI asking me about things i already decided to do (yes i am sort of man, who disables file deletion warning, if it provided).
>  
> when you pushing gas pedal in your car, or brakes, are there also popups which freezes your feet and asks to press yes or no before proceed?
> because wrong decision could cost you much more - your own life.
>
> And having to undo all my work to fix a stupid mistake is a nightmare. The only thing that would make sense for removing confirmation dialogs is editable action history. Take a look at Photoshop. Some 3d apps also have something similar.  Every action is recorded at a history ( a list) and there is a gui that allow you to remove individual actions without deleting or affecting other actions. Very cool stuff.
>
> that what we did with Ben: there is navigation history, where you can find unsaved changes. but people prefer popping up red herrings instead.
>
>
>  
>
> On Wednesday, 8 January 2014, 11:44, Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]> wrote:
> i want to discard. discard this modal thingies altogether..
> and we did that with Ben, but then people turned their nose against it and rolled back the change.
>
>
> On 8 January 2014 17:02, Sean P. DeNigris <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I still have these un-interact-able pop ups following me around endlessly
> when I have unaccepted edits in Nautilus. It seems intermittent. Not sure
> how exactly to reproduce… Anyone else?
>
> b.t.w. the secret seems to be to bring up halos on the pop-up and clicking
> the (x) halo. Trying to click its buttons only makes it angry
>
>
>
> -----
> Cheers,
> Sean
> --
> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Do-you-want-to-accept-Discard-tp4735220.html
> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Igor Stasenko.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Igor Stasenko.
>
>
> I don't think we have to discuss what would be the better alternative. People have different preferences and different workflows.
> Why don't we make a setting for this? Something like "Codepanes can discard edits", and let Nautilus and other
> codepanes behave like the Workspace (I remember a  time when workspaces asked too before discarding edits)
>
> About the editing history, most people said it is a good idea. The reason I reverted this back was not someone
> doesn't like it. It just didn't worked.
> As commented in the  bug case:
> 1. not alll interactions created an editing history entry.
> 2. throwing away the history on window closing was at leas unexpected for some users.
> 3. the history that was used for both, navigation and editing, is limited to 15 entries
>
> .. and instead of fixing the above things was thrown away.
> We will never have good UI if we will use such strategy to develop it.
>
> Nicolai
>
>
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Igor Stasenko.


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Re: Do you want to accept???????? Discard???????

Igor Stasenko



On 9 January 2014 10:38, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote:
The history hack did totally not work for end users, many people, including myself, lost code, often without noticing or understanding it at first.

This 'warning, you did not accept' is/was important and solid, if you want to replace that the solution should be really good - it was not.

Don't shoot on Nicolai, he tried to fix it, after asking around.

i'm not shooting anyone, i just sad there is no progress :)
and instead even regress, because now i should also answer 'yes/no' when i press
cmd-L.. 

If some people will need to be asked are they really really really fucking sure they wanted to press a key they pressed, each time they pressing the key, why others, who don't need such stupidity should suffer?


On 09 Jan 2014, at 10:27, Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
>
> On 9 January 2014 08:50, Nicolai Hess <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> 2014/1/9 Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]>
>
>
>
> On 8 January 2014 22:04, dimitris chloupis <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I don't like an app that does not ask for my confirmation , because I tend to do a lot of stupid mistakes along the way and I want to be able to fix everyone of them even before they happen. Please don't remove that, that would be reason enough for me to stop using Pharo.
>
> for stupid mistakes, there's (or should be , if missing) - undo.
>
> Another recipe: just don't make mistakes :)
>
> Undo also wont do, because I dont always realise my mistakes until much later on.
>
> sorry.. but then perhaps you should find different occupation? :)
> computers (and software systems we writing) will never be smart enough to predict or prevent you from doing mistakes. putting 'are you really really sure?' popups everywhere doesn't helps but just serves as a distraction.. because at certain point, your reaction on these popups become completely mechanical and just cost you extra time and no cognitive load only a distraction.
>
> at the end, it is just silly: the point is that i am always sure about things i do, when interacting with my computer. if i'm not, i simply don't (or i save and then proceed with caution).. and in any case, i don't need stupid UI asking me about things i already decided to do (yes i am sort of man, who disables file deletion warning, if it provided).
>
> when you pushing gas pedal in your car, or brakes, are there also popups which freezes your feet and asks to press yes or no before proceed?
> because wrong decision could cost you much more - your own life.
>
> And having to undo all my work to fix a stupid mistake is a nightmare. The only thing that would make sense for removing confirmation dialogs is editable action history. Take a look at Photoshop. Some 3d apps also have something similar.  Every action is recorded at a history ( a list) and there is a gui that allow you to remove individual actions without deleting or affecting other actions. Very cool stuff.
>
> that what we did with Ben: there is navigation history, where you can find unsaved changes. but people prefer popping up red herrings instead.
>
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, 8 January 2014, 11:44, Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]> wrote:
> i want to discard. discard this modal thingies altogether..
> and we did that with Ben, but then people turned their nose against it and rolled back the change.
>
>
> On 8 January 2014 17:02, Sean P. DeNigris <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I still have these un-interact-able pop ups following me around endlessly
> when I have unaccepted edits in Nautilus. It seems intermittent. Not sure
> how exactly to reproduce… Anyone else?
>
> b.t.w. the secret seems to be to bring up halos on the pop-up and clicking
> the (x) halo. Trying to click its buttons only makes it angry
>
>
>
> -----
> Cheers,
> Sean
> --
> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Do-you-want-to-accept-Discard-tp4735220.html
> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Igor Stasenko.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Igor Stasenko.
>
>
> I don't think we have to discuss what would be the better alternative. People have different preferences and different workflows.
> Why don't we make a setting for this? Something like "Codepanes can discard edits", and let Nautilus and other
> codepanes behave like the Workspace (I remember a  time when workspaces asked too before discarding edits)
>
> About the editing history, most people said it is a good idea. The reason I reverted this back was not someone
> doesn't like it. It just didn't worked.
> As commented in the  bug case:
> 1. not alll interactions created an editing history entry.
> 2. throwing away the history on window closing was at leas unexpected for some users.
> 3. the history that was used for both, navigation and editing, is limited to 15 entries
>
> .. and instead of fixing the above things was thrown away.
> We will never have good UI if we will use such strategy to develop it.
>
> Nicolai
>
>
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Igor Stasenko.





--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.
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Re: Do you want to accept???????? Discard???????

Marcus Denker-4

On 09 Jan 2014, at 10:45, Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]> wrote:




On 9 January 2014 10:38, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote:
The history hack did totally not work for end users, many people, including myself, lost code, often without noticing or understanding it at first.

This 'warning, you did not accept' is/was important and solid, if you want to replace that the solution should be really good - it was not.

Don't shoot on Nicolai, he tried to fix it, after asking around.

i'm not shooting anyone, i just sad there is no progress :)
and instead even regress, because now i should also answer 'yes/no' when i press
cmd-L.. 

If some people will need to be asked are they really really really fucking sure they wanted to press a key they pressed, each time they pressing the key, why others, who don't need such stupidity should suffer?


These are two different issue:

1) CMD-L
2) Not asking in general and rely on history.

Marcus
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Re: Do you want to accept???????? Discard???????

EstebanLM
what I do not understand is why are why discussing yet once again same issue :)
there were tons of mails before the decision of rolling back…

Esteban

On 09 Jan 2014, at 10:50, Marcus Denker <[hidden email]> wrote:


On 09 Jan 2014, at 10:45, Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]> wrote:




On 9 January 2014 10:38, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote:
The history hack did totally not work for end users, many people, including myself, lost code, often without noticing or understanding it at first.

This 'warning, you did not accept' is/was important and solid, if you want to replace that the solution should be really good - it was not.

Don't shoot on Nicolai, he tried to fix it, after asking around.

i'm not shooting anyone, i just sad there is no progress :)
and instead even regress, because now i should also answer 'yes/no' when i press
cmd-L..  

If some people will need to be asked are they really really really fucking sure they wanted to press a key they pressed, each time they pressing the key, why others, who don't need such stupidity should suffer?


These are two different issue:

1) CMD-L
2) Not asking in general and rely on history.

Marcus

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Re: Do you want to accept???????? Discard???????

Sven Van Caekenberghe-2
In reply to this post by Igor Stasenko

On 09 Jan 2014, at 10:45, Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]> wrote:

> and instead even regress, because now i should also answer 'yes/no' when i press
> cmd-L..  

Ah, but that is not good, I hate double questions myself (like when you say Quit, it ask Are you sure ?)...
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Re: Do you want to accept???????? Discard???????

Marcus Denker-4
In reply to this post by Marcus Denker-4

On 09 Jan 2014, at 10:50, Marcus Denker <[hidden email]> wrote:


On 09 Jan 2014, at 10:45, Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]> wrote:




On 9 January 2014 10:38, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote:
The history hack did totally not work for end users, many people, including myself, lost code, often without noticing or understanding it at first.

This 'warning, you did not accept' is/was important and solid, if you want to replace that the solution should be really good - it was not.

Don't shoot on Nicolai, he tried to fix it, after asking around.

i'm not shooting anyone, i just sad there is no progress :)
and instead even regress, because now i should also answer 'yes/no' when i press
cmd-L.. 

If some people will need to be asked are they really really really fucking sure they wanted to press a key they pressed, each time they pressing the key, why others, who don't need such stupidity should suffer?


These are two different issue:

1) CMD-L

The real solution is to implement undo for cmd-L...

2) Not asking in general and rely on history.

This is a good idea but it needs to *work*

Marcus
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Re: Do you want to accept???????? Discard???????

kilon.alios
I was the one that worked on CMD+L dialog. I posted my slice here and it was discussed. I tried to implement undo, but trying to understand undo was a pain in the ass. 

And yes Igor I am no pro coder, I code like 30 minutes a day max. I am a lawyer that tries to become a pro 2d/3d artist.
 I enjoy coding and an IDE that punishes me for my mistakes does not make coding enjoyable for me.
I think maybe an easy solution is to set all modals to a preference setting so they can be easily disabled, thus making everyone happy. 

Igor I will be frank with you, coders have no idea how to design good GUIs. They see GUIs as nothing more than an inconvenience and extra coding effort from their part. 
They usually put out the excuse "I am no designer" yet the truth is that they dont care because they cant understand the importance of a great GUI to the user. Applications like Photoshop are rare example of good GUI design. 


On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Marcus Denker <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 09 Jan 2014, at 10:50, Marcus Denker <[hidden email]> wrote:


On 09 Jan 2014, at 10:45, Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]> wrote:




On 9 January 2014 10:38, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote:
The history hack did totally not work for end users, many people, including myself, lost code, often without noticing or understanding it at first.

This 'warning, you did not accept' is/was important and solid, if you want to replace that the solution should be really good - it was not.

Don't shoot on Nicolai, he tried to fix it, after asking around.

i'm not shooting anyone, i just sad there is no progress :)
and instead even regress, because now i should also answer 'yes/no' when i press
cmd-L.. 

If some people will need to be asked are they really really really fucking sure they wanted to press a key they pressed, each time they pressing the key, why others, who don't need such stupidity should suffer?


These are two different issue:

1) CMD-L

The real solution is to implement undo for cmd-L...

2) Not asking in general and rely on history.

This is a good idea but it needs to *work*

Marcus

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Re: Do you want to accept???????? Discard???????

Marcus Denker-4

On 09 Jan 2014, at 11:11, kilon alios <[hidden email]> wrote:

I was the one that worked on CMD+L dialog. I posted my slice here and it was discussed. I tried to implement undo, but trying to understand undo was a pain in the ass. 


I reviewed it and you are not to blame: A key combination that *loses code* is not acceptable, and as we discussed in the past, this
change was needed and good.

The people who use the (undocumented!) cmd-L can easily get rid of the warning by implementing Undo.

Marcus

And yes Igor I am no pro coder, I code like 30 minutes a day max. I am a lawyer that tries to become a pro 2d/3d artist.
 I enjoy coding and an IDE that punishes me for my mistakes does not make coding enjoyable for me.
I think maybe an easy solution is to set all modals to a preference setting so they can be easily disabled, thus making everyone happy. 

Igor I will be frank with you, coders have no idea how to design good GUIs. They see GUIs as nothing more than an inconvenience and extra coding effort from their part. 
They usually put out the excuse "I am no designer" yet the truth is that they dont care because they cant understand the importance of a great GUI to the user. Applications like Photoshop are rare example of good GUI design. 


On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Marcus Denker <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 09 Jan 2014, at 10:50, Marcus Denker <[hidden email]> wrote:


On 09 Jan 2014, at 10:45, Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]> wrote:




On 9 January 2014 10:38, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote:
The history hack did totally not work for end users, many people, including myself, lost code, often without noticing or understanding it at first.

This 'warning, you did not accept' is/was important and solid, if you want to replace that the solution should be really good - it was not.

Don't shoot on Nicolai, he tried to fix it, after asking around.

i'm not shooting anyone, i just sad there is no progress :)
and instead even regress, because now i should also answer 'yes/no' when i press
cmd-L.. 

If some people will need to be asked are they really really really fucking sure they wanted to press a key they pressed, each time they pressing the key, why others, who don't need such stupidity should suffer?


These are two different issue:

1) CMD-L

The real solution is to implement undo for cmd-L...

2) Not asking in general and rely on history.

This is a good idea but it needs to *work*

Marcus


12345