Dolphin 6 in sight?

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Dolphin 6 in sight?

Jochen Riekhof
Hi...

just wondering if there is any news on Dolphin6 availability?

(it is not that I am not happy with D5.1 anymore, but one is getting kind of
curious... :-)

Ciao

...Jochen


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Re: Dolphin 6 in sight?

hading-2
"Jochen Riekhof" <[hidden email]> writes:

>
> just wondering if there is any news on Dolphin6 availability?
>
> (it is not that I am not happy with D5.1 anymore, but one is getting kind of
> curious... :-)
>
>

And then there are those of us wondering if D5 will ever be finished
(i.e. wondering if the docs will ever materialize).

--
Howard Ding
<[hidden email]>


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Re: Dolphin 6 in sight?

Jochen Riekhof
> And then there are those of us wondering if D5 will ever be finished
> (i.e. wondering if the docs will ever materialize).

Well, I don't care so much about the docs anymore if I get D6 sooner :-).
For new users however, updated EducationCenter for D6 would be very
important to get with or soon after release, within 2 months being a maximum
IMO..

A good compilation of all the great advices from this group with a
comprehensive index (a kind of Cookbook) would be a great help for both
newbies and advanced I think.

Ciao

...Jochen


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Re: Dolphin 6 in sight?

hading-2
"Jochen Riekhof" <[hidden email]> writes:

>> And then there are those of us wondering if D5 will ever be finished
>> (i.e. wondering if the docs will ever materialize).
>
> Well, I don't care so much about the docs anymore if I get D6 sooner :-).
> For new users however, updated EducationCenter for D6 would be very
> important to get with or soon after release, within 2 months being a maximum
> IMO..
>

Obviously it's a little late in the cycle for there to be too much
worry about the D5 docs, but certainly I (no matter how much I like
Dolphin) feel at least a little cheated because they've never come.

--
Howard Ding
<[hidden email]>


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Re: Dolphin 6 in sight?

Panu Viljamaa-3
Howard Ding  wrote:

> Obviously it's a little late in the cycle for there to be too much
> worry about the D5 docs, but certainly I (no matter how much I like
> Dolphin) feel at least a little cheated because they've never come.

There's a lot of class-comments within the image. I assume it
would be relatively easy to create a script that prints them
all out in alphabetical order, with added information about
the superclass/subclass relations and public methods.

Further information might be to list all references to Globals
a given class makes and vice versa, to show possible uses of
each class.

So, how to do the above would be the kind of seed-documentation
I would most appreciate, and it might be the cheapest way
to produce useful documentation fast.

-Panu Viljamaa


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Re: Dolphin 6 in sight?

Panu Viljamaa-3
panu wrote:

> There's a lot of class-comments within the image. I assume it
> would be relatively easy to create a script that prints them
> all out in alphabetical order

Ok, I did a fast experiment with the script below in D4.
The main shortcoming of this short script I think is that
it does not separate classes in different packages.

Naturally a hypertext implementation would need to
have hyperlinks to classes in other packages when
displaying a link to the superclasses:


  Object  allSubclasses do:
  [:ec | Transcript show: ec name

; show: ' < '
; show: ec superclass name
; show: ' < '
; show: ec superclass superclass name
; show: '

'
; show: ec comment
; cr
; show: '====================================
'
  ]

> -Panu Viljamaa


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Re: Dolphin 6 in sight?

Jochen Riekhof-3
I am not shure, but I think I read something from Blair or Andy quite a
while ago that this is exactly what they are working on.

Ciao

...Jochen


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Re: Dolphin 6 in sight?

Bill Schwab-2
In reply to this post by Panu Viljamaa-3
Hello all,

> > There's a lot of class-comments within the image. I assume it
> > would be relatively easy to create a script that prints them
> > all out in alphabetical order

Have a look at the DSDN search options; I think you'll find it can take you
to pretty much anything in the image, as well as Ian's archives.

Have a good one,

Bill

--
Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D.
[hidden email]


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Re: Dolphin 6 in sight?

Nick Payne-4
In reply to this post by Panu Viljamaa-3
"panu" <[hidden email]> wrote in message
news:[hidden email]...
>
> There's a lot of class-comments within the image. I assume it
> would be relatively easy to create a script that prints them
> all out in alphabetical order, with added information about
> the superclass/subclass relations and public methods.
>

I did something very similar in the early 90s for Smalltalk/V - wrote a
class that read the image and output all classes and their comments and all
method names and their comments to a text file, which I then ran through
some macros in MSWord to turn all the class names into topics and index all
the method names when compiled into a Windows HLP file. I then added some
code to the class hierarchy browser that would position you at the help
topic for a class when you hit F1 while browsing that class.

I believe the help file may now be part of STExpress, which is the final
incarnation of Smalltalk/V.

Nick


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Re: Dolphin 6 in sight?

Panu Viljamaa-3
Nick Payne wrote:

>
> I did something very similar in the early 90s for Smalltalk/V - wrote a
> class that read the image and output all classes and their comments and all
> method names and their comments to a text file  ...

Cool. Dolphin has the added benefit of a built-in
class-comment attribute, as well as a built-in
package-comment.

Additionally it seems that in Dolphin a reasonable
amount of classes actually do have class-comments,
although not all.

I do like the Windows help format, since it has
index and search. Something similar could be
created as HTML as well.

-Panu Viljamaa


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Re: Dolphin 6 in sight?

Chris Uppal-3
panu, Nick, et al,

I'm having difficulty seeing what the point of this is.  After all, what's so
hard about firing up a CHB and looking at the comments in that ?

    -- chris


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Re: Dolphin 6 in sight?

Panu Viljamaa-3
Chris Uppal wrote:
> I'm having difficulty seeing what the point of this is.  After all, what's so
> hard about firing up a CHB and looking at the comments in that ?

The point is about extracting the documentation
into a single document which you can read on
one go, and perhaps print on paper.

CHB was not designed mainly for reading. It was
designed for reading /and/ writing, really for
'programming'. When you click on a class or package,
it doesn't automatically show you the comment-section.
And when you click on the comment-tab, you will see
the comment in a section that is only half a window high.

It's a matter of preference, but personally
I like the 'single document' -approach for
learning about a system, at least in the initial
'discovery' phase.

-Panu Viljamaa


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Re: Dolphin 6 in sight?

Jochen Riekhof
+1

"panu" <[hidden email]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:[hidden email]...
> Chris Uppal wrote:
> > I'm having difficulty seeing what the point of this is.  After all,
what's so

> > hard about firing up a CHB and looking at the comments in that ?
>
> The point is about extracting the documentation
> into a single document which you can read on
> one go, and perhaps print on paper.
>
> CHB was not designed mainly for reading. It was
> designed for reading /and/ writing, really for
> 'programming'. When you click on a class or package,
> it doesn't automatically show you the comment-section.
> And when you click on the comment-tab, you will see
> the comment in a section that is only half a window high.
>
> It's a matter of preference, but personally
> I like the 'single document' -approach for
> learning about a system, at least in the initial
> 'discovery' phase.
>
> -Panu Viljamaa
>


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Re: Dolphin 6 in sight?

Chris Uppal-3
In reply to this post by Panu Viljamaa-3
panu wrote:

> > I'm having difficulty seeing what the point of this is.  After all,
> > what's so hard about firing up a CHB and looking at the comments in
> > that ?
>
> The point is about extracting the documentation
> into a single document which you can read on
> one go, and perhaps print on paper.

Paper?  PAPER?!  Get yourself a laptop, man!

;-)


Seriously; if the CHB is less than ideal for browsing the comments then maybe
it should be improved. Even a minor change like making the class comment the
"default" tab (instead the class def, which is rarely informative), would help.
(I suggested that years ago)  Also the Package Browser shouldn't hide the
package comment away on the very last tab as if it were an afterthought...

Perhaps too, there could be an easy way to see class comments from the Package
Browser without having to fire up an entire CHB to see them ?  Or --
alternatively -- a way to see package comments from the System Browser ?

    -- chris


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Re: Dolphin 6 in sight?

Andreas Wacknitz
Chris Uppal wrote:

> panu wrote:
>
>> > I'm having difficulty seeing what the point of this is.  After all,
>> > what's so hard about firing up a CHB and looking at the comments in
>> > that ?
>>
>> The point is about extracting the documentation
>> into a single document which you can read on
>> one go, and perhaps print on paper.
>
> Paper?  PAPER?!  Get yourself a laptop, man!
>
> ;-)
>
>
> Seriously; if the CHB is less than ideal for browsing the comments then
> maybe it should be improved. Even a minor change like making the class
> comment the "default" tab (instead the class def, which is rarely
> informative), would help.
> (I suggested that years ago)  Also the Package Browser shouldn't hide the
> package comment away on the very last tab as if it were an afterthought...
>
> Perhaps too, there could be an easy way to see class comments from the
> Package
> Browser without having to fire up an entire CHB to see them ?  Or --
> alternatively -- a way to see package comments from the System Browser ?
>
>     -- chris
For me this is just a advantage of a Smalltalk system over non-image-based
systems. But it is not a replacement for real documentation. From this I
expect more: introductions, overviews, and concepts!
The class comments are IMO not enough, even a printed extract of them are
only a neat addition. Especially beginners are left alone without
introductions and overviews!

Andreas
(Still waiting for proposed Dolphin XP documentation!)


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Re: Dolphin 6 in sight?

Chris Uppal-3
Andreas Wacknitz wrote:

> > Perhaps too, there could be an easy way to see class comments from
> > the Package
> > Browser without having to fire up an entire CHB to see them ?  Or --
> > alternatively -- a way to see package comments from the System
> > Browser ?

> For me this is just a advantage of a Smalltalk system over
> non-image-based systems. But it is not a replacement for real
> documentation. From this I expect more: introductions, overviews, and
> concepts!

Yes, that was (I think) more what I was trying to get at in my original post.
The real need is for *more* help, not the *same* help no matter how slickly
repackaged.

Not that it's easy, of course.  I am still breathing hard from the effort of
"completing" the documentation for my JNIPort, and that was *months* ago...
Even harder to produce the high quality documentation that OA typically have
provided.

    -- chris


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Re: Dolphin 6 in sight?

hading-2
In reply to this post by Andreas Wacknitz
Andreas Wacknitz <[hidden email]> writes:


>>     -- chris
> For me this is just a advantage of a Smalltalk system over non-image-based
> systems. But it is not a replacement for real documentation. From this I
> expect more: introductions, overviews, and concepts!
> The class comments are IMO not enough, even a printed extract of them are
> only a neat addition. Especially beginners are left alone without
> introductions and overviews!
>
> Andreas
> (Still waiting for proposed Dolphin XP documentation!)

That's really what I was getting after when I started this whole
subthread.  Of course there's lots of documentation in the image and
the D4 Education Center.  So the documentation that would have been (well,
still is) of interest to me is how things fit together (which is not
always apparent from the individual parts), and, especially, how to
use the new tools included in Dolphin 5.  

--
Howard Ding
<[hidden email]>


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Re: Dolphin 6 in sight?

Stefan Schmiedl
In reply to this post by Panu Viljamaa-3
On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 01:35:22 -0400,
panu <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Chris Uppal wrote:
>> I'm having difficulty seeing what the point of this is.  After all, what's so
>> hard about firing up a CHB and looking at the comments in that ?
>
> CHB was not designed mainly for reading. It was
> designed for reading /and/ writing, really for
> 'programming'. When you click on a class or package,
> it doesn't automatically show you the comment-section.
> And when you click on the comment-tab, you will see
> the comment in a section that is only half a window high.

Judging from previous posts I think it would be easy enough to
morph the CHB into a DocBrowser by removing and repositioning
parts of it.

A seriously cool thing would be to make this DocBrowser observe
a CHB to automatically switch to the comment of the currently
active class.

s.
--
Stefan Schmiedl
Approximity GmbH                                      http://www.approximity.com
Research & Development                             mailto:[hidden email]


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Re: Dolphin 6 in sight?

Panu Viljamaa-3
Stefan Schmiedl wrote:
...
> A seriously cool thing would be to make this DocBrowser observe
> a CHB to automatically switch to the comment of the currently
> active class.

That would be helpful indeed. Yet there's something
more to being able to read a body of knowledge in a
*linear* sequence, like in a book. So the DocBrowser
should have the mode of going through all of the
documentation one page at a time, and keeping track
of which sections I have already visited, perhaps
marked as 'completed' or as 'revisit later'. Another
cool feature would be to be able to add my own annotations
and bookmarks. Annotations might include 'see also'
-hyperlinks to other sections  of the documentation.

Perhaps it's just psychological but I somehow can't get
myself to deciding on "Now I'm going to click through
every class in the image, and read their comment".

I'd much prefer a system where I can simply click  on 'Next',
or simply scroll down to the next page. Having a pre-built
linear sequence spares me the mental effort of deciding which
class to look at next; it also  gives me an easy way to track
my progress and make sure I haven't /accidentally/ overlooked
anything when I'm at the end of the book. I can always *skip*
a section if I want to, but then I'm at least aware that I'm
doing so.


-Panu Viljamaa


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Re: Dolphin 6 in sight?

Jochen Riekhof
In reply to this post by Jochen Riekhof
> just wondering if there is any news on Dolphin6 availability?
>
> (it is not that I am not happy with D5.1 anymore, but one is getting kind
of
> curious... :-)

Hum, thanks for all your answers to this question, but the ones I would have
like to hear were not among them (sigh) ;-).

Ciao

...Jochen