Dolphin Smalltalk Professional Edition

We are in the process of choosing a smalltalk product for
development of commercial software applications on the
Windows 2000 platform. To this end, the Dolphin Smalltalk
Professional Edition appears to meet our needs. On the
other hand, we do have experience from using VisualAge
Smalltalk on other platforms (together with other
development programs - mainly C and C++). However, before
we commit ourselves (commitment is far more than just
investment), it would be interesting to hear what the
Dolphin community has to say about this product, including
its interfacing to foreign language features (in particular
our existing C/C++ base) and the quality of its support.
In short, "why Dolphin Smalltalk Professional?"

- Daniel

"Daniel Dudley" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Best online support you can get, Low cost, Fun to work with. Not
bloated, nice integration with Windows. The interface and controls
feel like Windows. Very responsive. Integrates well with COM and
external DLLs.

I can go on but then you may think I work for them <g>. The only
downside is that there is no one single document describing everything
so you have to go on their site or the Wiki site and read. Someone
said that they are working on a book due out in July. We'll see.  But
if you can't find something you can get great support here or through
their support plan.

There are also some add ons for Dolphin such as a source code manager
and even a an Object Database written totally in Smalltalk called
Omnibase.

I did not try it myself on Windows 2000 yet so I don't know if there
are any issues.  And don't know about the foreign language aspect
although I know it has auto detection of Locale.

Costas

"Daniel Dudley" <[hidden email]> wrote in message
news:ZXK_5.1025$[hidden email]...
> ... choosing a smalltalk product ... Windows 2000 platform.
 ...
> On the other hand, we do have experience from using VisualAge
> Smalltalk on other platforms (together with other
> development programs - mainly C and C++).
 ...
> Dolphin community has to say about this product, including
> its interfacing to foreign language features (in particular
> our existing C/C++ base) and the quality of its support.
> In short, "why Dolphin Smalltalk Professional?"

I'm glad you asked.  I'm running Dolphin 4 Professional on W2K.  I have been
pleased with Dolphin support, both from its owners and from the volunteers.
For example, Ian was kind enough to add some of the GUI builder features to
Dolphin that I had liked from WindowBuilder Pro.  They have all put up with
my struggles and occasional griping with extremely good humor.  Just looking
over the list of improvements/fixes for version 4 brought a smile to my face
as I considered all they had done for me.

I am in the process of beta testing ("beta" testing, at least), a medical
accounting software product I have ported to Dolphin.  It started life in VW
as I began to build my persistence frame work, moved to VA as I considered
it, but I've done the bulk of the work on it in Dolphin.  A pleasant
surprise was that all of my (non-GUI) code from VA more or less dropped into
Dolphin and ran the first time -- that is, there was almost no porting work
involved in converting from VA to Dolphin.

I have not yet accessed any C or C++ libraries from Dolphin (I'm accessing
the database server via TCP/IP), but it looks like you have full access to
such, with plenty of examples in the image.  But, since I haven't done it
personally yet, I hope we will hear from some others about this point.

I should go around the circle again, re-porting to VW and then VA, in order
to give a proper comparison (but, there are limits to what I will do in the
name of Science!), as the first time around I was learning and learning and
learning Smalltalk itself.  I wouldn't have had nearly the trouble getting
into Dolphin if I had had even the Smalltalk experience then that I have
now.

All in all, I liked all three Smalltalks.  VW was my favorite, but I
couldn't stand (or understand) the Cincom deal.  It still irritates me
everytime I think about the difficulty of getting an answer as to what the
product costs and/or what the actual licensing terms are for VW.  Apparently
I had misunderstood some of the terms (but, since I was fairly vocal about
how I understood them, why didn't a Cincom salesman try to correct my
misunderstanding?) and at least one insane term is routinely waived if the
prospect objects strongly enough.  Well, I still think that is a hell of a
lousy way to start off a relationship with a Smalltalk vendor.

VA was completely impersonal, but at least they quote prices!  I figured I
would need to buy not only VA but also VA Assist and WindowBuilder Pro and
felt that the overall price was too high.

So, Dolphin won largely on price and being "good enough".  Object Arts being
a small company probably also contributes to their responsiveness, a
responsiveness you don't get with IBM or Cincom, as far as I can tell.

I hope this helps and that you will post your impressions of how Dolphin
compares with VA if you get the chance.  Since you have experience with VA,
yet are considering Dolphin, there must be some aspects of VA that displease
you?

-- Frank
[hidden email]

"Daniel Dudley" <[hidden email]> wrote in message
news:ZXK_5.1025$[hidden email]...
> In short, "why Dolphin Smalltalk Professional?"

And furthermore, ...

I forgot to mention two points.  I have some concerns about tieing myself so
closely to Windows by using Dolphin, but I couldn't see that VA would be any
better.  That is, Windows and Linux would be the only platforms of interest
to me, and Dolphin and VA may be equally likely to run on Linux one day.

Also, I have some concerns about Dolphin intermingling so thoroughly with
Windows.  My feeling is that this exposes me to more of Windows than I would
like to have to see, and that I might prefer the nasty details be abstracted
away more thoroughly.  Of course, my understanding of this may grow to a
point where I better appreciate Dolphin's approach.


-- Frank
[hidden email]

I haven't really used Dolphin in anger yet (just for a couple of
prototypes).

However, I must say that over the last month I have received the best
support
that I have ever experienced for any piece of software.

I say this from the context of being the technical architect of a major
software development effort, using many software tools from many vendors
with some very big names.

Object Arts are my favourite supplier, period.

Phil Lewis
Chief Technical Architect
Knowledge Management Software plc
[hidden email]





"Daniel Dudley" <[hidden email]> wrote in message
news:ZXK_5.1025$[hidden email]...

Daniel,

> We are in the process of choosing a smalltalk product for
> development of commercial software applications on the
> Windows 2000 platform. To this end, the Dolphin Smalltalk
> Professional Edition appears to meet our needs.

I think it's correct to say that I haven't even _seen_ a Windows 2000 box,
though I know people who have taken the plunge.  Given that OA does their
development on it, you should find that it runs well.


> On the
> other hand, we do have experience from using VisualAge
> Smalltalk on other platforms (together with other
> development programs - mainly C and C++). However, before
> we commit ourselves (commitment is far more than just
> investment), it would be interesting to hear what the
> Dolphin community has to say about this product, including
> its interfacing to foreign language features (in particular
> our existing C/C++ base)

Do you mean "foreign" in the carbon (French, German, etc.) or silicon
(C/C++, Cobol, etc.) sense?  I can't speak to the carbon languages other
than US English.  You'll find that Dolphin does a great job calling DLLs and
COM interfaces.


> and the quality of its support.
> In short, "why Dolphin Smalltalk Professional?"

You'll note other replies including statements such as "best support
anywhere", and I agree!  Dolphin provides a great mix of price and
performance.  It's very stable, and keeps getting better.

Bill

--
Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D.
[hidden email]

On the win2k front, I have used Dolphin 2.1 and 4.0 with no problems.

Well, none from Dolphin anyway ;-)


> > We are in the process of choosing a smalltalk product for
> > development of commercial software applications on the
> > Windows 2000 platform. To this end, the Dolphin Smalltalk
> > Professional Edition appears to meet our needs.
>
> I think it's correct to say that I haven't even _seen_ a Windows 2000 box,
> though I know people who have taken the plunge.  Given that OA does their
> development on it, you should find that it runs well.
>
<SNIP>

Daniel Dudley <[hidden email]> wrote in message
news:ZXK_5.1025$[hidden email]...
> We are in the process of choosing a smalltalk product for
> development of commercial software applications on the
> Windows 2000 platform. To this end, the Dolphin Smalltalk
> Professional Edition appears to meet our needs. On the
> other hand, we do have experience from using VisualAge
> Smalltalk on other platforms (together with other
> development programs - mainly C and C++). However, before

We have been using Dolphin to develop some commercial applications.  One of
our development machines is Windows 2000, another is Windows NT, Dolphin
works well on both.

I have not done a great deal of calling external code in Dolphin, but for
what I have done (calling a few functions from some DLL's) it works well and
seems reliable.  You might take a look at the education center for more
information :
http://www.object-arts.com/EducationCentre/Overviews/ExternalInterfacing.htm

We previously used IBM VAST but switched to Dolphin.  We used very little of
the complexity offered by VAST and found that the simplicity and elegance of
Dolphin fit our needs better.  The Dolphin development system has a very
attractive and productive UI.

There is a very active and friendly Dolphin community.  The OA developers
are responsive, and committed to the positive evolution of Dolphin.  I am
glad we are using Dolphin, I think it is a good place to be.

Christopher J. Demers
Applications Developer
==========================
Mitchell Scientific, Inc.
Web: http://www.mitchellscientific.com
Voice: 908-654-9779
Fax: 908-232-2216