I've recently downloaded Visual Studio .NET beta 2 and I am
very impressed by it. Especially the Common Language Infrastructure seems to me the way to the future of programming (finally!). Moreover, this looks like a future that Smalltalks can latch on to, to step into the limelight again. Our favorite Smalltalk, Dolphin, has the best cards to to this of course, because of it's tight Windows integration. So, Andy, Blair, are there developments in progress along these lines for the next version of Dolphin? Thanks, Richard |
Richard,
> I've recently downloaded Visual Studio .NET beta 2 and I am > very impressed by it. > > Especially the Common Language Infrastructure seems to me > the way to the future of programming (finally!). Moreover, this looks like > a future that Smalltalks can latch on to, to step into the limelight again. > > Our favorite Smalltalk, Dolphin, has the best cards to to this of course, > because of it's tight Windows integration. > > So, Andy, Blair, are there developments in progress along these > lines for the next version of Dolphin? OA mentioned this before, and I'll refer you to the archives to form your own opinion as to whether there was a conscensous. I'm very much against the idea of switching to .NET because I think that MS has proven they are not worthy of that kind of trust. PenWindows, DirectX RM, and to a lesser extent MDI (there are no doubt others) stand as dusty reminders that signing on for what MS says is cool can leave you working without a .NET in the future. It's too risky IMHO. Have a good one, Bill -- Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. [hidden email] |
"Bill Schwab" <[hidden email]> wrote in
news:9iql7c$9pi$[hidden email]: > OA mentioned this before, and I'll refer you to the archives to form > your own opinion as to whether there was a conscensous. I'm very much > against the idea of switching to .NET because I think that MS has > proven they are not worthy of that kind of trust. PenWindows, DirectX > RM, and to a lesser extent MDI (there are no doubt others) stand as > dusty reminders that signing on for what MS says is cool can leave you > working without a .NET in the future. It's too risky IMHO. I think the bet MS is making in .Net is much bigger than any of those examples, and so .Net is much less likely to disappear. I'm not sure _switching_ to .Net is a good idea, but not having anything for .Net is a very risky strategy in itself. P. |
In reply to this post by Richard Ronteltap
"Richard Ronteltap" <[hidden email]> wrote in message
news:9iqaj1$r68$[hidden email]... > I've recently downloaded Visual Studio .NET beta 2 and I am > very impressed by it. > > Especially the Common Language Infrastructure seems to me > the way to the future of programming (finally!). Moreover, this looks like > a future that Smalltalks can latch on to, to step into the limelight again. > > Our favorite Smalltalk, Dolphin, has the best cards to to this of course, > because of it's tight Windows integration. I personally agree that Dolphin is a better candidate, but I'm still curious. How do you compare Dolphin windows integration/capabilities with those of Smalltalk/MT? -- -- Dave S. [ http://www.smallscript.net ] > > So, Andy, Blair, are there developments in progress along these > lines for the next version of Dolphin? > > Thanks, > Richard |
"David Simmons" <[hidden email]> wrote in message
news:qQc47.210238$%[hidden email]... > "Richard Ronteltap" <[hidden email]> wrote in message > news:9iqaj1$r68$[hidden email]... > > I've recently downloaded Visual Studio .NET beta 2 and I am > > very impressed by it. > > > > Especially the Common Language Infrastructure seems to me > > the way to the future of programming (finally!). Moreover, this looks like > > a future that Smalltalks can latch on to, to step into the limelight > again. > > > > Our favorite Smalltalk, Dolphin, has the best cards to to this of course, > > because of it's tight Windows integration. > > I personally agree that Dolphin is a better candidate, but I'm still > curious. > > How do you compare Dolphin windows integration/capabilities with those of > Smalltalk/MT? > To be honest, I didn't really think about MT when writing this. I'm not much of an MT expert, but I would guess porting to .NET would be harder because the MT is of a much lower level than Dolphin. It's a thin wrapper around the Win32 API so there would be more to rewrite. Maybe somebody more knowledgeable could comment on it. Richard |
In reply to this post by Paul Hudson
"Paul Hudson" <[hidden email]> wrote in message
news:Xns90DF5F264848Bphudsonpoboxcom@127.0.0.1... > "Bill Schwab" <[hidden email]> wrote in > news:9iql7c$9pi$[hidden email]: > > > OA mentioned this before, and I'll refer you to the archives to form > > your own opinion as to whether there was a conscensous. I'm very much > > against the idea of switching to .NET because I think that MS has > > proven they are not worthy of that kind of trust. PenWindows, DirectX > > RM, and to a lesser extent MDI (there are no doubt others) stand as > > dusty reminders that signing on for what MS says is cool can leave you > > working without a .NET in the future. It's too risky IMHO. > > I think the bet MS is making in .Net is much bigger than any of those > examples, and so .Net is much less likely to disappear. I agree with this. IMHO, Language wise, Microsoft has put all of its eggs in the .NET basket. They really want this to succeed. Of Bill's examples above, I can only concur that PenWindows was a malicious diversion. (Read Microserfs on how this came about. Very interesting reading.) The rest has just naturally evolved in some 'better' replacement, which should be followed by languages and end user software. Regards, Richard |
Richard,
> I agree with this. IMHO, Language wise, Microsoft has put all of its eggs in > the .NET basket. They really want this to succeed. > > Of Bill's examples above, I can only concur that PenWindows was > a malicious diversion. (Read Microserfs on how this came about. > Very interesting reading.) I'll check it out. From having connected to the 2.0 Pen API, I have a strong suspicion that it was cancelled during development, and they probably back-tracked to a previous stable beta version. There are many confusions between HANDLE and various ways of saying DWORD that give the appearance that they were starting to clean it up and then quit. BTW, all they'd have to do to largely un-scum themselves on this is release some source code for the ink handling functions, and put the electronic copy of the book that's now out of print on an FTP server. The fact that MS WILL NOT DO IT should tell us something. I'll grant that MDI is a weak example (hence the "lesser extent" phrase), but, it was still something they were telling us to do, and at a time when they were creating the first version of MS Money. We can't blame MS for the Visual J++ disaster, because that ended due to legal action by Sun. But, let's talk about Sun. I have no inside knowledge, but, it struck me at the time that MS might have conjured C# as a way to get around the rulings against them. I wouldn't put it past Sun to wait until MS is almost ready to strike and then hit them with yet another law suit. However, I also think that the way the chads fell in Florida will make them less likely to try it (sorry to inject politics, but, it's relevant). > The rest has just naturally evolved in some 'better' replacement, > which should be followed by languages and end user software. DirectX RM is more complicated - it's fall caused OA to cancel a project. They were kind enough to make the code available to us after cancelling it, so I'm saying they did anything wrong. It got too hot to handle, and they made a wise decision - it wasn't a fun decision, but, it was the right one. However, it is very easy to believe that .NET will be just as volatile. What then? Ok, it would be the guts of the VM vs. an add-on with poor sales, but, what happens if MS decides to drop support for a critical feature? What's the word on resumable exceptions for a .NET app? I heard stuff like "MS said they wanted to work with us on that" - sounds like the typical pre-sale rose-colored-glasses stuff. Does it work? I would have a tough time getting by w/o resumable exceptions. I'm down to one use of them, but, it's critical. One of my apps will use MS Agent if it's present. I chose that approach because it allowed me to avoid the more invasive requirements of getting a redistribution license. There are two troublesome conditions that MS typcially includes: (1) the redistribution license is specific to one version, so it becomes a repeating headache; (2) one has to agree to make reasonable efforts to adopt a new version when it is released. The second one is the show stopper. First, I don't have time to poll for when I need to upgrade, and more importantly, I might not _want_ to upgrade. I can't have a pre-condition to a license agreement being one of the factors in a go/no-go decision. So, just link to the MS Agent site, right? Maybe. I tried that, allowing users who wanted agents to go through the same process I did to get them. Problem: MS updated the site, and now we get something like Your search using for "download agents" returned 0 results. Makes me glad the app will start without MS Agent. Note that I haven't worked very hard at finding how to download this stuff because it's not critical, but, what happens when it is critical, time's tight, and the site just happened to change last week? Have a good one, Bill -- Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. [hidden email] |
In reply to this post by Paul Hudson
Paul,
> I think the bet MS is making in .Net is much bigger than any of those > examples, and so .Net is much less likely to disappear. > > I'm not sure _switching_ to .Net is a good idea, The original debate started with OA's announcement of their intention/consideration to use MS' universal VM as the basis for Dolphin in a future release. That sounds like a switch to me. > but not having anything > for .Net is a very risky strategy in itself. If it were more along the lines of the Automation support and type library analyzer, that would be very different. Anything that offers more options to developers while being possible to ignore w/o penalty is a good thing. Building the VM on top of a new technology from a vendor with MS' track record for dumping stuff is another matter. Have a good one, Bill -- Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. [hidden email] |
"Bill Schwab" <[hidden email]> wrote in
news:9isrp8$a5n$[hidden email]: > The original debate started with OA's announcement of their > intention/consideration to use MS' universal VM as the basis for > Dolphin in a future release. That sounds like a switch to me. Right. But not Richard Ronteltap's message that started _this_ thread... >> but not having anything >> for .Net is a very risky strategy in itself. > > If it were more along the lines of the Automation support and type > library analyzer, that would be very different. Anything that offers > more options to developers while being possible to ignore w/o penalty > is a good thing. Building the VM on top of a new technology from a > vendor with MS' track record for dumping stuff is another matter. Yes, I heard you the first time :-) However, I still maintain it's a very risky strategy to not have a .Net solution (and I'm sure you heard that the first time, too) P. |
In reply to this post by Bill Schwab
Bill,
>snip> > OA mentioned this before, and I'll refer you to the archives to form your > own opinion as to whether there was a conscensous. I'm very much against > the idea of switching to .NET because I think that MS has proven they are > not worthy of that kind of trust. PenWindows, DirectX RM, and to a lesser > extent MDI (there are no doubt others) stand as dusty reminders that signing > on for what MS says is cool can leave you working without a .NET in the > future. It's too risky IMHO. But the problem with PenWindows (and DirectX RM) is that nobody used it. The former required specialist hardware (pen machines) and was really too far ahead of it's time; about 10 years by the looks of the new push for the TabletPC. The RM mode wasn't taken up because software game programmers traditionally want to squeeze every last ounce of speed out of the processor and using a generic rendering pipeline just wasn't seen as being the best way to go. MDI was (IMO) a bad idea in the first place and the sooner it went the better. My only regret was that MS didn't trash MDI sooner. Personally, I don't think Microsoft should "do an IBM" and guarantee to support old outdated technologies in perpetuity, it's unnecessary and just too expensive. I'd rather they pumped the money into improving new technologies, for example by making the .NET VM better support dynamic languages. Best Regards Andy Bower Dolphin Support http://www.object-arts.com/Support.htm Not all Addictions are Bad for you http://www.object-arts.com/Addiction.htm |
Andy,
> Personally, I don't think Microsoft should "do an IBM" and guarantee to > support old outdated technologies in perpetuity, it's unnecessary and just > too expensive. Support can come in many forms. They could simply provide a zip file with the word docs from the book and the source code for the basic ink handling functions. One of their engineers could put it together in a day or two. I certainly don't expect them to provide device drivers and the like, but, yanking docs on stuff that was a documented part of the API is wrong. Sorry, it's just how I see it. Have a good one, Bill -- Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. [hidden email] |
In reply to this post by Andy Bower
> <snipped the past>
> I'd rather they pumped the money into improving new > technologies, for example by making the .NET VM better support dynamic > languages. But..., getting back to the original question: What are OA's Dolphin development plans in relation to .NET. Specifically for the CLI/CLR? Is support for dynamic languages (i.e. Smalltalk) too weak to produce something good? Is it considered strategic or not? Thanks, Richard |
Richard,
> But..., getting back to the original question: What are OA's Dolphin > development plans in relation to .NET. Specifically for the CLI/CLR? At some point we will have a version of Dolphin that runs on the CLR. > Is support for dynamic languages (i.e. Smalltalk) too weak to produce > something good? No but it's not excellent. > Is it considered strategic or not? Yes. We would be foolish in the extreme to ignore .NET when MS are to a certain extent "betting the farm" on it. Best Regards, Andy Bower Dolphin Support http://www.object-arts.com --- Are you trying too hard? http://www.object-arts.com/Relax.htm --- |
"Andy Bower" <[hidden email]> wrote in message
news:9j22u6$lr1mt$[hidden email]... > Yes. We would be foolish in the extreme to ignore .NET when MS are to a > certain extent "betting the farm" on it. About a year and a half ago I posted the old Indian folk story of "The Lady and the Cobra". Here it is again: A woman once had a mouse in her house which she could not get rid of. The cat had failed, the dog had failed, and the woman was very sad. A cobra which was passing by heard the woman lamenting her fate and told her he could rid her house of mice. "That seems a fine idea to me", said the woman, and invited the cobra in. Soon the mouse was gone, and the woman said, "Thank you for your help, kind cobra. At last my house is free of mice! Where will you go next?" "Oh, I think this chair is a fine place", said the cobra. "And bring me another mouse. I'm still hungry". Moral: it is easier to invite a cobra into your house than to get him to leave. -- Bob Jarvis |
"Bob Jarvis" <[hidden email]> wrote in message
news:[hidden email]... > Moral: it is easier to invite a cobra into your house than to get him to > leave. But if we're living in the cobra's house.... -- Aaron |
Aaron,
> > Moral: it is easier to invite a cobra into your house than to get him to > > leave. > > But if we're living in the cobra's house.... Then learn to think like a mongoose - beat the cobra at his own game. Have a good one, Bill -- Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. [hidden email] |
In reply to this post by Andy Bower
IMHO, it is not possible to port Smalltalk to CLR without a
substantial VM redisign. The main obstacle is that CLR doens't support tagged pointers. So every creation of SmallInteger instance would take at least 8 bytes of heap. Imagine how slow and memory-hungry the following code would be: 1 to: 10000 do: [ :i | sum := sum + i ] -- Uladzimir. |
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