Enjoyed the reading..

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Enjoyed the reading..

Igor Stasenko
According to this guy, we're using 3rd most powful programming
language (or, well one of 4.. to not insult anyone ;).

http://www.paulgraham.com/icad.html

So, we're not that bad, eh? :)

A very good explanation to 'pointy-haired' why 'mainstream' language
are not best choice..
as well as good illustration that in order to compete and stay
popular, all mainstream languages
will slowly converge to lisp.

--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.

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Re: Enjoyed the reading..

Eliot Miranda-2


On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at 3:02 PM, Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]> wrote:
According to this guy, we're using 3rd most powful programming
language (or, well one of 4.. to not insult anyone ;).

http://www.paulgraham.com/icad.html

So, we're not that bad, eh? :)

I like what he says about patterns:

"If you try to solve a hard problem, the question is not whether you will use a powerful enough language, but whether you will (a) use a powerful language, (b) write a de facto interpreter for one, or (c) yourself become a human compiler for one. We see this already begining to happen in the Python example, where we are in effect simulating the code that a compiler would generate to implement a lexical variable.

This practice is not only common, but institutionalized. For example, in the OO world you hear a good deal about "patterns". I wonder if these patterns are not sometimes evidence of case (c), the human compiler, at work. When I see patterns in my programs, I consider it a sign of trouble. The shape of a program should reflect only the problem it needs to solve. Any other regularity in the code is a sign, to me at least, that I'm using abstractions that aren't powerful enough-- often that I'm generating by hand the expansions of some macro that I need to write."
 

A very good explanation to 'pointy-haired' why 'mainstream' language
are not best choice..
as well as good illustration that in order to compete and stay
popular, all mainstream languages
will slowly converge to lisp.

--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.




--
best,
Eliot

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Re: Enjoyed the reading..

Igor Stasenko
On 10 March 2012 00:33, Eliot Miranda <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at 3:02 PM, Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> According to this guy, we're using 3rd most powful programming
>> language (or, well one of 4.. to not insult anyone ;).
>>
>> http://www.paulgraham.com/icad.html
>>
>> So, we're not that bad, eh? :)
>
>
> I like what he says about patterns:
>
> "If you try to solve a hard problem, the question is not whether you will
> use a powerful enough language, but whether you will (a) use a powerful
> language, (b) write a de facto interpreter for one, or (c) yourself become a
> human compiler for one. We see this already begining to happen in the Python
> example, where we are in effect simulating the code that a compiler would
> generate to implement a lexical variable.
>
> This practice is not only common, but institutionalized. For example, in the
> OO world you hear a good deal about "patterns". I wonder if these patterns
> are not sometimes evidence of case (c), the human compiler, at work. When I
> see patterns in my programs, I consider it a sign of trouble. The shape of a
> program should reflect only the problem it needs to solve. Any other
> regularity in the code is a sign, to me at least, that I'm using
> abstractions that aren't powerful enough-- often that I'm generating by hand
> the expansions of some macro that I need to write."
>
Yeah.. in re: he says:


I was actually surprised at how badly Python did. I had never
realized, for example, that a Python lambda-expression couldn't
contain the same things as a named function, or that variables from
enclosing scopes are visible but not modifiable. Neither Lisp nor Perl
nor Smalltalk nor Javascript impose either restriction.

I can't see what advantage either restriction brings you. I can see
how Python's gradual, ongoing (= incomplete) evolution would have
produced them. So Occam's Razor implies that the latter is the reason
Python is this way. I.e. these restrictions are bugs, not features.

>>
>>
>> A very good explanation to 'pointy-haired' why 'mainstream' language
>> are not best choice..
>> as well as good illustration that in order to compete and stay
>> popular, all mainstream languages
>> will slowly converge to lisp.
>>
>> --
>> Best regards,
>> Igor Stasenko.
>>
>
>
>
> --
> best,
> Eliot
>



--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.

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Re: Enjoyed the reading..

laurent laffont
In reply to this post by Igor Stasenko
On Sat, Mar 10, 2012 at 12:02 AM, Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]> wrote:
According to this guy, we're using 3rd most powful programming
language (or, well one of 4.. to not insult anyone ;).

http://www.paulgraham.com/icad.html

So, we're not that bad, eh? :)

A real scientific analysis ;) proves that Smalltalk is far more powerful than Lisp (but sadly less powerful than Haskell) : http://magaloma.blogspot.com/2010/11/revenge-of-smalltalk.html

Laurent


 

A very good explanation to 'pointy-haired' why 'mainstream' language
are not best choice..
as well as good illustration that in order to compete and stay
popular, all mainstream languages
will slowly converge to lisp.

--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.


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Re: Enjoyed the reading..

Ben Coman
In reply to this post by Eliot Miranda-2
Off topic... but the following article by Paul Graham has been one of my
all time favorites for the last few years...
http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html

Eliot Miranda wrote:

> On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at 3:02 PM, Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>  
>> According to this guy, we're using 3rd most powful programming
>> language (or, well one of 4.. to not insult anyone ;).
>>
>> http://www.paulgraham.com/icad.html
>>
>> So, we're not that bad, eh? :)
>>
>>    
>
> I like what he says about patterns:
>
> "If you try to solve a hard problem, the question is not whether you will
> use a powerful enough language, but whether you will (a) use a powerful
> language, (b) write a de facto interpreter for one, or (c) yourself become
> a human compiler for one. We see this already begining to happen in the
> Python example, where we are in effect simulating the code that a compiler
> would generate to implement a lexical variable.
>
> This practice is not only common, but institutionalized. For example, in
> the OO world you hear a good deal about "patterns". I wonder if these
> patterns are not sometimes evidence of case (c), the human compiler, at
> work. When I see patterns in my programs, I consider it a sign of trouble.
> The shape of a program should reflect only the problem it needs to solve.
> Any other regularity in the code is a sign, to me at least, that I'm using
> abstractions that aren't powerful enough-- often that I'm generating by
> hand the expansions of some macro that I need to write."
>
>
>  
>> A very good explanation to 'pointy-haired' why 'mainstream' language
>> are not best choice..
>> as well as good illustration that in order to compete and stay
>> popular, all mainstream languages
>> will slowly converge to lisp.
>>
>> --
>> Best regards,
>> Igor Stasenko.
>>
>>
>>    
>
>
>  


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Re: Enjoyed the reading..

Jimmie Houchin-5
In reply to this post by Igor Stasenko
On 3/9/2012 5:02 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote:
> According to this guy, we're using 3rd most powful programming
> language (or, well one of 4.. to not insult anyone ;).
>
> http://www.paulgraham.com/icad.html
>
> So, we're not that bad, eh? :)

I think were pretty good. :)

I personally don't think anything comes close to Smalltalk when it comes
to approachability and power. Smalltalk brings power to people who
aren't necessarily "hackers". I am not a professional programmer. My day
job requires very little computer.

But, I have a vision for things outside of my day job. Smalltalk
empowers me better than anything else I've seen.

If you take someone who doesn't have their very soul invested in Emacs,
git, C/C++/Java/Python/languageOfChoice, and other tool sets. Or if they
are simply willing to come to Smalltalk on its terms and when in
Smalltalk do Smalltalk. Then you are offered great power with very
approachable tools. And I believe in Pharo's case, that approachability
is an area that will is greatly as the appearance, browsers and editors
are getting improved and polished.

There is much in the image I don't understand. That's okay. It doesn't
stop me from doing what I want to do.

Most people who find Smalltalk unapproachable, seem to want to bring a
lot of baggage with them. They don't want to start fresh. This can be a
problem for them. They need to let go, start fresh, learn what is here.
Then evaluate how they can apply Smalltalk in their set of tools. And
personally that is really how any language and tool set should be
evaluated, though that is rarely the case. I don't believe it is to our
advantage to lose our soul to try to make Pharo into the image the other
tools that are already available. Why have a Smalltalk flavored Python?
Let Pharo be Pharo.

I think the more we can empower the person who can come to Pharo afresh,
newbie or old pro, regardless of experience. The more we empower them to
create their future. The better the future for Pharo.

Pharo, power to create!
Pharo, empowering you to create!
Pharo, empowering you to create the future!

Jimmie


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Re: Enjoyed the reading..

Jimmie Houchin-5
On 3/10/2012 10:29 AM, Jimmie Houchin wrote:
[snip]
> And I believe in Pharo's case, that approachability
> is an area that will is greatly as the appearance, browsers and editors
> are getting improved and polished.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
And I believe in Pharo's case, that approachability is an area that is
being greatly improved as the appearance, browsers and editors are
getting improved and polished.

Ugh! Changed thoughts mid-sentence and forgot to correct.
I hate seeing that in my emails. Apologies.

Jimmie


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Re: Enjoyed the reading..

Igor Stasenko
On 10 March 2012 17:41, Jimmie Houchin <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 3/10/2012 10:29 AM, Jimmie Houchin wrote:
> [snip]
>
>> And I believe in Pharo's case, that approachability
>> is an area that will is greatly as the appearance, browsers and editors
>> are getting improved and polished.
>
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> And I believe in Pharo's case, that approachability is an area that is being
> greatly improved as the appearance, browsers and editors are getting
> improved and polished.
>
> Ugh! Changed thoughts mid-sentence and forgot to correct.
> I hate seeing that in my emails. Apologies.
>
No need for apologies :)
Don't feel yourself as an invited guest.
Feel yourself at home.

> Jimmie
>
>



--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.

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Re: Enjoyed the reading..

Schwab,Wilhelm K
In reply to this post by Jimmie Houchin-5
+1.  Look at fast dragging 1.4 (gorgeous!) and in 1.3, implementors and senders - much better than what we had before.

Bill


________________________________________
From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] on behalf of Jimmie Houchin [[hidden email]]
Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2012 11:41 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Enjoyed the reading..

On 3/10/2012 10:29 AM, Jimmie Houchin wrote:
[snip]
> And I believe in Pharo's case, that approachability
> is an area that will is greatly as the appearance, browsers and editors
> are getting improved and polished.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
And I believe in Pharo's case, that approachability is an area that is
being greatly improved as the appearance, browsers and editors are
getting improved and polished.

Ugh! Changed thoughts mid-sentence and forgot to correct.
I hate seeing that in my emails. Apologies.

Jimmie



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Re: Enjoyed the reading..

Igor Stasenko
On 10 March 2012 19:45, Schwab,Wilhelm K <[hidden email]> wrote:
> +1.  Look at fast dragging 1.4 (gorgeous!) and in 1.3, implementors and senders - much better than what we had before.
>
gorgeous fast-dragging? what is it?
it is hard to see the wood for people like me, who spending all the
time inside it :)

> Bill
>
>
> ________________________________________
> From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] on behalf of Jimmie Houchin [[hidden email]]
> Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2012 11:41 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Enjoyed the reading..
>
> On 3/10/2012 10:29 AM, Jimmie Houchin wrote:
> [snip]
>> And I believe in Pharo's case, that approachability
>> is an area that will is greatly as the appearance, browsers and editors
>> are getting improved and polished.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> And I believe in Pharo's case, that approachability is an area that is
> being greatly improved as the appearance, browsers and editors are
> getting improved and polished.
>
> Ugh! Changed thoughts mid-sentence and forgot to correct.
> I hate seeing that in my emails. Apologies.
>
> Jimmie
>
>
>



--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.

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Re: Enjoyed the reading..

Peter Hugosson-Miller
In reply to this post by Ben Coman
Brilliant! I shared this on Facebook this morning, and three of my nerdy friends have then shared it further, so there's a lot in that article that hits home.

Many thanks for the link!

-- 
Cheers,
Peter

On Sat, Mar 10, 2012 at 10:37 AM, Ben Coman <[hidden email]> wrote:
Off topic... but the following article by Paul Graham has been one of my all time favorites for the last few years...
http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html