Etoys developer chat log

We had a chat again:

* Etoys will follow the Sugar release schedule:
  http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/0.90/Roadmap
* should prepare a first alpha release in June, with translations and DrGeo for wider testing
* also camera support hopefully, need to simplify interface
* there is a decompiler problem, possibly because of Eliot's changes
* multi-touch working pretty well on iPad now
* need idea about how to debug missing mouse-overs

Full log below, as usual. And see you next Monday, same time:

        http://tinyurl.com/2bjpzbe

- Bert -

<bertf> hi karl
<karlram> hi
<karlram> not maye here
<karlram> many
<bertf> yep
<bertf> busy, hopefully ;)
<karlram> he he
<karlram> I had some issues with a ehancement I integrated
<karlram> enhancement
<bertf> the broken viewers?
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<bertf> ah, hi hilaire :)
<karlram> jup , it added all sort of stuff to variables categorie
<hilaire> hello
<karlram> hi
<bertf> do you think it's okay now?
<karlram> It was a one line fix
<bertf> good
<bertf> hilaire: thanks for submitting dr geo :)
<karlram> But images must get past the bad fix without opening a viewer....
<bertf> I wouldn't worry too much abouht that
<karlram> Ok
<bertf> we're just a handful people updating regularly  I think
<karlram> you are right
<bertf> do we need a do-it to fix it, if someone loaded the broken version?
<karlram> I had another issue
<karlram> deleting a etoy variable seems broken
<karlram> when  the variable is part of a etoy script
<bertf> hmm. that should be a blocker ticket
<bertf> just so it is not forgotten
<bertf> you mean when the var is already used in a script?
<karlram> I'll add it, the Decompiler complains about some issues
<bertf> ah. might have to do with eliots changes then
<karlram> Should I notify Eliot ?
<bertf> wouldn't hurt
<karlram> Ok
<bertf> in any case, we should commit to a release schedule. I think adopting the Sugar one makes sense
<karlram> and sugar release is ?
<bertf> a July release would be too rushed
<bertf> I sent mail about that, give me a second to find it
<bertf> http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/0.90/Roadmap
<karlram> July seems very close
<bertf> right. september sounds sensible
<bertf> we still should try to get an alpha release out asap
<bertf> including dr geo and the new translations
<bertf> so more people can test that stuff
<karlram> Sound good
<karlram> dr geo is big , in many ways
<karlram> :-)
<karlram> a huge framework
<karlram> and lots of classes
<karlram> and lot and lots of new stuff to learn :-)
<bertf> indeed
<bertf> but if we can get the fonts out of the image, we still will have a smaller image even with dr geo included
<bertf> richo started on that
<bertf> he pushed Andreas' font loader code
<bertf> maybe we should start freezign features a bit earlier than the Sugar schedule ...
<bertf> hilaire: did you want to talk about somethign specifically?
<karlram> what about the camera morph stuff ?
<karlram> wait another release to mature?
<hilaire> bertf: no
<bertf> karlram: no I think it would be a nice feature to have
<bertf> karlram: but I would start simple
<bertf> hilaire: okay. thanks for stopping by :)
<bertf> karlram: the current one has too many controls. we should put in just the bare minimum and then see what people find missing
<bertf> but having camera support on all platforms would be awesome
<karlram> Sounds good
<karlram> Many of the controls are a bit hard to understand :-)
<bertf> yeah
<hilaire> I need to rest
<hilaire> bye
<karlram> ye
<karlram> bye
<hilaire> add a hard time with students today..
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<karlram> Students are not always what you want them to be :-)
<karlram> I sent a mail to Eliot about http://tracker.squeakland.org/browse/SQ-710
<bertf> thanks
<bertf> I got multitouch workign this weekend :)
<bertf> on the iPad
<bertf> you can draw with more than one finger, or move multiple objects at once
<bertf> pretty cool
<bertf> now if you also could rotate and scale them with two fingers that would be awesome :)
<karlram> Oh, sound cool
<bertf> And now that I compiled the VM with enabled optimizations it's even quite usable ;)
<karlram> I remember some issues with mouse over states from earlier touch based computers
<bertf> I was using it without optimizations for like two weeks .. was rather slow
<bertf> yes, some things rely on mouse overs
<bertf> e.g. the color selector in the paint box
<bertf> I'd have thought it goes away on mouse-up, but apparently noe
<bertf> not
<bertf> hmm. your Etoys-kfr.19 looks identical ...
<karlram> I was fighting mouse over issue with SelectionMourh, very annoying....
<bertf> but there is no diff
<bertf> no changes
<karlram> Hm, very weird, my image had the wrong method still displaying...
<karlram> I got confuced...
<karlram> confused
<karlram> lol
<bertf> always check changes before committing
<karlram> I know
<karlram> Back to the mouse over issues, do you  know a good way to debug them ?
<bertf> I'd simulate at touch event
<bertf> that is, filter out all mousemove events that have button=0
<bertf> so you only get mouse down, move, and up, but no moves after mouse up
<bertf> that should recreate the problem  on a normal machine
<karlram> ok
<karlram> ipad is not a very fast machine ?
<bertf> karlram: it feels very fast
<bertf> just not in etoys
<bertf> for Etoys it's about the XO-1 speed I would say
<bertf> so not great but usable
<bertf> okay, thanks for chatting, I'll send the log as usual :)

Hi all,

very lively chat today, you should have been there :)

Topics included:

* import/export of data and objects as files
* Randy wants to send single objects by Email, not just projects
* resurrecting some network sharing code
* perhaps make it work in the local network?
* need discovery mechanism like Etoys uses under Sugar
* use VNC instead of (or to implement a new version of) Nebraska?
* and hypothetically, Croquet sharing
* finally, some book sprint talk I didn't quite catch, but there surely will be a separate mail

Full log below, as usual. And see you next Monday, same time:

        http://tinyurl.com/38fy92u

- Bert -


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<Richo2> hi
<bertf> hi
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<randycat> hi Richo
<ritaf> hi
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<randycat> hi Rita
<bertf> a few more folks than ususal here today :)
<bertf> anything specific you guys want to talk about?
<randycat> We would like to talk about Richo's next tools
<hilaire> hello
<bertf> hi Hilaire
<bertf> randycat: sure. let's start
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<randycat> do you want to start with Richo or authoring
<bertf> so what's the next steps going to be?
<bertf> 'authoring"?
<randycat> 1. to develop an object to output and input data
<randycat> the title above says the session is about authoring is always on
<Richo2> the idea would be to serialize morphs in files
<Richo2> to send them in mails
<Richo2> or somethink like that
<Richo2> I tried a naive approach using ReferenceStream
<Richo2> and it worked except for the scripts
<Richo2> because the player class was not in the image
<bertf> randycat: no, that's the general idea of Etoys :)
<Richo2> so I tried to serialize the player class
<randycat> Rita suggested that you all might have things developed or ideas about how best tp proceed
<Richo2> but it didn't worked
<randycat> Richo: are you just dealing with text data now?
<bertf> randycat: input and output of what kind of data?
<randycat> text to start with
<Richo2> I started trying to export entire morphs
<Richo2> that's more fun than just text
<randycat> then graphics and etoys like a flying airplaine (a sub project for reuse)
<bertf> Richo2: I'd think the point is more to be able to exchange data with non-Etoys systems
<ritaf> in our chat we talked about nebraska or other ways to exchange objects
<randycat> also to output data for analysis of student progress
<Richo2> yes, but also to share morphs between projects
<bertf> we can share objects between projects already
<randycat> something like Squeak Basket developed in Japan
<bertf> facilities for text input and output are pretty much missing
<randycat> I haven't had trouble sharing by putting the morph in the supplies, but Stephen has
<Richo2> how do you send a morph to an image in another computer?
<Richo2> I mean, the morph only, not the entire project
<bertf> saving objects to a file will be even more trouble
<bertf> Richo2: what's wrong with sending the project?
<bertf> under Sugar you can send an object directly
<bertf> providing the same on the local network would be cool
<Richo2> what we talked about in the education meeting was to be able to share individual morphs, not just projects
<Richo2> the idea of having a repository of objects
<Richo2> were kids would put their morphs, drawings, etc. and others would get them out for their own project
<randycat> could Richo pull out the part of Nebraska that shared projects on the network?
<Richo2> I didn't know sugar was able to do that
<bertf> nebraska is for screen sharing
<bertf> etoys is able to do that, not sugar
<Richo2> oh
<bertf> but sugar provides thediscovery mechanism
<randycat> but you could drop a morph on a badge to send it
<Richo2> yes, nebraska lets you send morphs
<bertf> you can do that on any machine, but you have to type in IP adresses
<Richo2> yes, that's why the idea of using files came out
<bertf> randycat: that badge dropping is what we use in Sugar
<bertf> Well you can save a morph in a file which should be pretty much equicvalent
<bertf> but you could check the badge sendign code
<randycat> is there a badge object in Etoys sugar?
<Richo2> I didn't know that was still working in current etoys
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<bertf> yes
<matmo> hi all
<Richo2> hi
<bertf> hi
<bertf> randycat: it's even in your image, in the object catalog under B
<bertf> or so
<randycat> I'm glad it still works
<Richo2> :P
<Richo2> I didn't even look for it
<ritaf> what do I have to do to send an object?
<bertf> get you peer's badge, drop the object onto it
<ritaf> could I type randys ip address and send him an object?
<randycat> what if you want to email the morph because the recipient is offline?
<bertf> if both you and randy had a real ip address then yes. in rality, you're both behind a NAT firewall, which broke the internet years ago
<randycat> do you want to try it Rita? I can start etoys and send you my IP
<ritaf> yes, let's try!
<bertf> home computers cannot talk to each other anymore
<bertf> randycat: you have a fixed IP adress?
<bertf> I know for sure that Rita doesn't ;)
<ritaf> so it's only working in a local network?
<bertf> everywhere you can make a direct connection
<randycat> I just checked and I don't have a fixed IP
<Richo2> well, if this still works then I can look at how it serializes objects and modify it a little to store them in a file
<bertf> Sugar uses a framewrok called "Telepathy" which hides the gory details
<Richo2> that's what the "share" button does?
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<bertf> it uses the local network or a direct connection or a server-based connection transparently
<bertf> Richo2: yes
<Richo2> I just noticed the button is not in the sugar bar anymore
<bertf> under sugar it is
<Richo2> ohh
<Richo2> I need to install sugar...
<randycat> my badge doenst show my IP as it used to - is that a bad sign? I do have an IP in my network settings, but it may not be fixed
<bertf> it puts your Etoys into the network view so others can join just by clicking on your icon. for everyone who joins, you get a badge. then you can just drop objects on a badge to send them
<bertf> randycat: hasn't been used in a long time, might have got broken. currently we don;t support it.
<bertf> but sugar uses the same badge, pretty much
<Richo2> well, I will play with it and see if it works
<randycat> bert: don't I also need a receiver + a badge?
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<bertf> randycat: as I said, the usewr interfasce is terrible. only meant for demos
<bertf> randycat: you do not need a badge for you, but for your peer
<bertf> entering the peer's ip address should work
<bertf> if you open a listener, that is
<bertf> rits: what's your ip?
<randycat> rita: what is you IP? I will try to chat via Etoys?
<bertf> randycat: you cannot
<ritaf> 192.168.178.28
<bertf> rita is behind a firewall. I'm in the same local network as she so I can try locally here
<randycat> Bert: Ok, but i'm curious - where is the listener?
<bertf> I'm trying to find it
<bertf> I think we hid it thoroughly
<bertf> try "EToyListenerMorph new open"
<randycat> can you find it in the morph list if you disable etoys friendly?
<bertf> in the "new morph ..." menu under E, yes
<bertf> rita: do you have a listener opened?
<randycat> Thanks Bert, I found it
<ritaf> yes
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<bertf> Cmd-Shift-W, new morph, alphabetical, E, EtoysListenerMorph
<bertf> then click the black head
<karlram> Hi
<ritaf> Hi Karl
<bertf> so ot starts listening
<bertf> hi karl
<bertf> ritaf: ready?
<ritaf> hihi, looks funny
<ritaf> thanks!
<ritaf> cool
<ritaf> it's still turning
<bertf> so I just sent Rita an object I painted, including a running script
<ritaf> and we chat!
<bertf> text chat works too, kind-of
<bertf> (she's in a room upstairs)
<ritaf> wow, we need to document this
<bertf> no we need to fix the UI
<randycat>  i have also used audio chat
<Richo2> great news!
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<randycat> would it be easy to modify this for email?
<bertf> the saving itself yes, I'd think
<bertf> but interfacing to your system's email client, well, trickier
<randycat> I used to use Nebraska with kids and they loved it - the hilight of their Etoys experience
<bertf> but it's just screen sharing. tv basically
<bertf> somethign way more cool, but also way more complicated, is netmorphs
<randycat> once it is saved, could it be emailed in a separate step - that would be good
<bertf> there you can steer your car to another kids' screen for example
<bertf> randycat: yes, that would be the idea
<Richo2> yes, I saw NetMorphs... it's cool
<randycat> It was a great year at Squeakfest when we had all the neat things from Japan!
<karlram> SeeTroughTalk has some network detection http://swikis.ddo.jp/SeeThroughTalk
<bertf> netmorphs have network detection too
<karlram> Ok
<bertf> So I just saved a morph including a script to a file. works.
<bertf> just when loading it, the script is not runnign anymore
<bertf> have to cklick the ticker button
<Richo2> excelent! then everything works
<Richo2> why is it hidden?
<bertf> because it's not usable
<bertf> it eill not work always
<bertf> people will get upset when we advertise a feature that does break more often than it works
<karlram> Preferred way is to ublish projects
<bertf> karlram: +1
<randycat>  It is good in a classroom where there are no firewall issues.
<bertf> yes, there broadcast could also work reasonably well
<bertf> making it work locally wouldn't be too big an effort
<bertf> though still you wouldn't be able to copy everything
<bertf> like if you have more complex arrangement of multiple objects. those might break
<randycat> I once used Nebraska to give a talk at a conference in NY from VA. It worked well - over 10 years ago.
<morphle> Is someone documenting and maintaining the NetMorphs, eeTroughTalk and Nebraska stuff in the image?
<bertf> yes, biut the others were only watching
<bertf> morphle: no
<bertf> we declared nebraska dead. if we ever want to resurrect it, VNC would be a better choice
<Richo2> VNC inside Etoys?
<morphle> Maybe asigning these things to maintainers would work better than letting it slide
<bertf> we have both a VNC client and a server, sure
<Richo2> there's so much I don't know...
<karlram> We are so few...
<morphle> Richo2: it is all documented in the mailing list
<bertf> well it's not in Etoys, but many people are using it on their Squeak servers
<Richo2> ok, I will look at that
<morphle> Yes, I run a few hundred VNC's
<bertf> morphle: we're trying to document and maintain Etoys first. As it is now.
<morphle> ok
<jecel> Matthew is working hard to get Cobalt running on Squeak 4.1 and if that can run in the same image as Etoys it will provide another way of sharing stuff
<bertf> this feature discussion is only happenign because we're lucky enough that Richo is working in his GSoC project
<morphle> the port is now almost done, it took only a few weeks
<bertf> the rest of us is busy just getting another bug fix release out
<randycat>  Rita: is the book spring this week or next?
<bertf> jecel: eventually :)
<morphle> Anyone here interested in becoming involved in the effort to use Etoys as the OpenCobalt scripting language
<ritaf> randycat: I just realised that I told you in the meeting it would be this week
<karlram> Etoys got a lot of inspiration from Alice
<bertf> karlram: that's reversing history ...
<bertf> but it's true that one of the Alice guys implemented the Wonderland system in Squeak
<randycat> Rita: will you email a time?
<ritaf> randycat: since I didn't got the meeting notes out in time, only the educators know about this plan. we could also do it next week. Or start tomorrow
<randycat> Rita: I will be available to help.
<ritaf> randycat: I will do so. we should start, and it would be so geat to have it done by Squeakfest
<ritaf> randycat: great, thanks!
<randycat> Richo: do you have enough feedback or do you have more questions?
<Richo2> no, I'm okay for now
<bertf> lots of new durections to explore ...
<Richo2> I'm glad lot of stuff still works
<bertf> anything else anyone wants to talk about today?
<randycat> Richo: can you Skype just a bit after this meeting?
<karlram> i'm ok
<Richo2> randycat: no, sorry.. I'm not at home right now
<randycat> Richo: OK, I will send am email
<randycat> Richo: Or we could chat here when everyone is done.
<Richo2> ok
<bertf> okay. thanks all for a nice chat. you're welcome to stay around, as usual. I'll broadcast the log ...
<bertf> and see you next week :)
<randycat> hanks Bert
<karlram> thanks
<ritaf> bye
<matmo> bye