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Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

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Sven Van Caekenberghe-2

Re: Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

> On 16 Mar 2018, at 17:59, Sean P. DeNigris <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Ben Coman wrote
>> it seems some people want to push PharoLauncher to *be* Pharo.
>> To me this seems a poor strategy… This seems strange to me and highly
>> likely to confuse newcomers.
>
> Yes, this was already discussed at length on the ML.
>
> The term Pharo already has a meaning: a vm + image containing both an OOP
> language (is it Smalltalk or Smalltalk inspired? Please don't actually
> answer that lol) and IDE written therein - or you could call it prototype
> Dynabook software.
>
> If we now try to redefine the above (or really overload, because the former
> definition will still coexist) to mean an app that manages images, it may
> just be the final straw to make sure that no one ever will be able to give
> any acceptable answer in less than 2038 hours to the question: What is
> Pharo? ;)
>
> But just in case we step into the quicksand even further, in this dystopian
> future you can just copy paste this definition:
> Pharo is a Pharo app that manages Pharo images, which can be used to make
> Pharo apps, which can be used to manage Pharo images, [which can be used to
> make Pharo apps, which can be used to manage Pharo images]*

Haha, yes it is so fluid it cannot be described only be experienced through prolonged exposure, it is truly magical.

Actually, that is not so far from the truth.

> -----
> Cheers,
> Sean
> --
> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Developers-f1294837.html
>

kmo

Re: Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

In reply to this post by Marcus Denker-4

I tried the default download of Pharo Launcher on my Windows 7 (32 bit) PC at
work. It installs. Runs fine - creates images and vms but when you try to
run them nothing happens. It fails to start the selected image. It just
fails to run the vm at all as far as I can see.

I tried it on my Windows 10 (32 bit) laptop and got exactly the same result.

This is not important for me as I use pharo on Linux - but I thought I'd
point it out. If having the launcher as the default download causes more
problems than the traditional vm and image download then perhaps it should
be reconsidered. A pity since I love the launcher.

--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Developers-f1294837.html

abergel

Re: Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

Yesterday we also experienced many problem when using Launcher on OSX :-(

Is the Launcher still maintained?

Alexandre

> On Mar 17, 2018, at 8:57 AM, kmo <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I tried the default download of Pharo Launcher on my Windows 7 (32 bit) PC at
> work. It installs. Runs fine - creates images and vms but when you try to
> run them nothing happens. It fails to start the selected image. It just
> fails to run the vm at all as far as I can see.
>
> I tried it on my Windows 10 (32 bit) laptop and got exactly the same result.
>
> This is not important for me as I use pharo on Linux - but I thought I'd
> point it out. If having the launcher as the default download causes more
> problems than the traditional vm and image download then perhaps it should
> be reconsidered. A pity since I love the launcher.
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Developers-f1294837.html
>

cedreek

Re: Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

In reply to this post by kmo

Little feedback too.

I was surprised by the new download as some students had to install on windows… hopefully, I had old win versions but it has disturbed me :)

Still handy and straightforward to just put an image on the VM.

But…this being said, I just tried on Mac and this works nicely and this is true that launcher makes the management of image clearer and easier..

I don’t know about windows but I have to care about as 98% of students uses Pharo on windows...

I was thinking of some adjustments:

1) maybe a default/advanced mode on the launcher to show only, as default, Mooc/PBE5/Official distributions.

2) a proper icon name to display in OS’s task bars.

When several image are opened, they should have different icons, at least different name when hovering, and not only Pharo.

A more general feedback is about cloud drive OS’s (iCloud Drive, Dropbox, …).

I have 3 mac’s (pro and personal). I put often files in a directory that are synchronized across these devices.

- sometimes I get a message that an image are in different states

- sync image might be long (+changes) depending on network conditions

I think the question is important as the launcher download in the Document folder (OSX) and this directory is synchronized by default.

What do you think about such common situation ? What are your common practices ?

- lets says on two Macs and works on both

- or I use a dropbox folder

=> cloud drive are cool and my impression is that we could take a better advantage of them for data that could be shared between (personal) images (Play-Cache ? Packages-cache ? … )

==> would it be possible to have several files for one image (chunked over time so only the last chunk is modified and then less file would be synchronized) - (I don’t know at all if possible) ?

==> same for changes… but this one should be easier I think.

=> I also find longer to share pharo system the old ways - zipping (or not) via USB - I think git integration produces a large number of files that relies slows down system copy paste (if only image this is ok)…

My 2 cents,

Cédrick

PS: my experiments to make students use Pharo are very cool… I need to adjust my presentations/lecture but already I think I succeeded in getting more attraction (and potential results) than what I tried last year with whatever technologies (Python especially). I still use AppInventor and Arduino.cc.

PS2: I just like what Sean said (but might be frightening at first for newcomers ^^) Pharo all the way down

But just in case we step into the quicksand even further, in this dystopian
future you can just copy paste this definition:
Pharo is a Pharo app that manages Pharo images, which can be used to make
Pharo apps, which can be used to manage Pharo images, [which can be used to
make Pharo apps, which can be used to manage Pharo images]*

Haha, yes it is so fluid it cannot be described only be experienced through prolonged exposure, it is truly magical.

Actually, that is not so far from the truth.

Ben Coman

Re: Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

In reply to this post by kmo

On 17 March 2018 at 19:57, kmo <[hidden email]> wrote:

I tried the default download of Pharo Launcher on my Windows 7 (32 bit) PC at
work. It installs. Runs fine - creates images and vms but when you try to
run them nothing happens. It fails to start the selected image. It just
fails to run the vm at all as far as I can see.

I tried it on my Windows 10 (32 bit) laptop and got exactly the same result.

This is not important for me as I use pharo on Linux - but I thought I'd
point it out. If having the launcher as the default download causes more
problems than the traditional vm and image download then perhaps it should
be reconsidered. A pity since I love the launcher.

We've seen before when features are promoted in visibility (e.g. each GT tool)

they come under more scrutiny and bump a wider set of environments

that cause hiccups. Ultimately this feedback is beneficial to the tool.

So I don't think there is any need to panic into a reversal.

Lets give a chance to work through the issues.

(but it might be good for the older links to be also available further down the page

while Launcher issues are sorted out)

cheers -ben

Sean P. DeNigris

Re: Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

Administrator

In reply to this post by abergel

abergel wrote
> Yesterday we also experienced many problem when using Launcher on OSX :-(

Hmm, I've been using exclusively daily for many months with minimal
glitches. Please post OS, Pharo system report, download method and any other
relevant details. The major "gotchas" of the past were: 1) The app has to be
in the "Applications" folder 2) the first time it was started you needed to
work around a signing issue e.g. via [right click]->Open->[Confirm dialog].
The app will not open, but from now on you can just open in the normal way
(e.g. double clicking the .app). HTH

-----
Cheers,
Sean
--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Developers-f1294837.html

Cheers,
Sean

Peter Uhnak

Re: Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

> Runs fine - creates images and vms but when you try to
> run them nothing happens. It fails to start the selected image. It just
> fails to run the vm at all as far as I can see.

I am also experiencing this...

With ProcessWrapper the image launches maybe 1 out of 10 times...

So I hacked for myself a solution based on Torsten's OS-Window (which uses WinAPI) ... but even then the launch success rate is below 90%...

I guess Pharo really doesn't like talking to Windows...

Peter

On Sat, Mar 17, 2018 at 5:42 PM, Sean P. DeNigris <[hidden email]> wrote:

abergel wrote
> Yesterday we also experienced many problem when using Launcher on OSX :-(

Hmm, I've been using exclusively daily for many months with minimal
glitches. Please post OS, Pharo system report, download method and any other
relevant details. The major "gotchas" of the past were: 1) The app has to be
in the "Applications" folder 2) the first time it was started you needed to
work around a signing issue e.g. via [right click]->Open->[Confirm dialog].
The app will not open, but from now on you can just open in the normal way
(e.g. double clicking the .app). HTH

-----
Cheers,
Sean

--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Developers-f1294837.html

Stephane Ducasse-3

Re: Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

In reply to this post by Sean P. DeNigris

On Fri, Mar 16, 2018 at 5:59 PM, Sean P. DeNigris <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Ben Coman wrote
>> it seems some people want to push PharoLauncher to *be* Pharo.
>> To me this seems a poor strategy… This seems strange to me and highly
>> likely to confuse newcomers.
>
> Yes, this was already discussed at length on the ML.
>
> The term Pharo already has a meaning: a vm + image containing both an OOP
> language (is it Smalltalk or Smalltalk inspired? Please don't actually
> answer that lol) and IDE written therein - or you could call it prototype
> Dynabook software.
>
> If we now try to redefine the above (or really overload, because the former
> definition will still coexist) to mean an app that manages images, it may
> just be the final straw to make sure that no one ever will be able to give
> any acceptable answer in less than 2038 hours to the question: What is
> Pharo? ;)
>
> But just in case we step into the quicksand even further, in this dystopian
> future you can just copy paste this definition:
> Pharo is a Pharo app that manages Pharo images, which can be used to make
> Pharo apps, which can be used to manage Pharo images, [which can be used to
> make Pharo apps, which can be used to manage Pharo images]*

look like smurf (Schroumpf :)

>
>
>
> -----
> Cheers,
> Sean
> --
> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Developers-f1294837.html
>

Stephane Ducasse-3

Re: Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

In reply to this post by abergel

On Sat, Mar 17, 2018 at 12:59 PM, Alexandre Bergel
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Yesterday we also experienced many problem when using Launcher on OSX :-(

Which version of Launcher?
Which version of your OS?
What problems?
Can we reproduce it?

Could we get pro in reporting problems?

> Is the Launcher still maintained?

Alexandre

Christophe spent two months fixing tons of issues.
So could you report problems in a nicer way?

>
> Alexandre
>
>
>> On Mar 17, 2018, at 8:57 AM, kmo <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I tried the default download of Pharo Launcher on my Windows 7 (32 bit) PC at
>> work. It installs. Runs fine - creates images and vms but when you try to
>> run them nothing happens. It fails to start the selected image. It just
>> fails to run the vm at all as far as I can see.
>>
>> I tried it on my Windows 10 (32 bit) laptop and got exactly the same result.
>>
>> This is not important for me as I use pharo on Linux - but I thought I'd
>> point it out. If having the launcher as the default download causes more
>> problems than the traditional vm and image download then perhaps it should
>> be reconsidered. A pity since I love the launcher.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Developers-f1294837.html
>>
>
>

Stephane Ducasse-3

Re: Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

In reply to this post by cedreek

On Sat, Mar 17, 2018 at 1:26 PM, Cédrick Béler <[hidden email]> wrote:

Little feedback too.

I was surprised by the new download as some students had to install on windows… hopefully, I had old win versions but it has disturbed me :)
Still handy and straightforward to just put an image on the VM.

But…this being said, I just tried on Mac and this works nicely and this is true that launcher makes the management of image clearer and easier..
I don’t know about windows but I have to care about as 98% of students uses Pharo on windows...

I was thinking of some adjustments:
1) maybe a default/advanced mode on the launcher to show only, as default, Mooc/PBE5/Official distributions.

did you see that the Launcher already includes this?

There is a Pharo Mooc item.

2) a proper icon name to display in OS’s task bars.
When several image are opened, they should have different icons, at least different name when hovering, and not only Pharo.

The PharoLauncher should be named Pharo Launcher :).

Now we should get a nice icon.

A more general feedback is about cloud drive OS’s (iCloud Drive, Dropbox, …).
I have 3 mac’s (pro and personal). I put often files in a directory that are synchronized across these devices.
- sometimes I get a message that an image are in different states
- sync image might be long (+changes) depending on network conditions

I think the question is important as the launcher download in the Document folder (OSX) and this directory is synchronized by default.
What do you think about such common situation ? What are your common practices ?
- lets says on two Macs and works on both
- or I use a dropbox folder

=> cloud drive are cool and my impression is that we could take a better advantage of them for data that could be shared between (personal) images (Play-Cache ? Packages-cache ? … )
==> would it be possible to have several files for one image (chunked over time so only the last chunk is modified and then less file would be synchronized) - (I don’t know at all if possible) ?
==> same for changes… but this one should be easier I think.

=> I also find longer to share pharo system the old ways - zipping (or not) via USB - I think git integration produces a large number of files that relies slows down system copy paste (if only image this is ok)…

My 2 cents,

Cédrick

PS: my experiments to make students use Pharo are very cool… I need to adjust my presentations/lecture but already I think I succeeded in getting more attraction (and potential results) than what I tried last year with whatever technologies (Python especially). I still use AppInventor and Arduino.cc.

PS2: I just like what Sean said (but might be frightening at first for newcomers ^^) Pharo all the way down

But just in case we step into the quicksand even further, in this dystopian
future you can just copy paste this definition:
Pharo is a Pharo app that manages Pharo images, which can be used to make
Pharo apps, which can be used to manage Pharo images, [which can be used to
make Pharo apps, which can be used to manage Pharo images]*

Haha, yes it is so fluid it cannot be described only be experienced through prolonged exposure, it is truly magical.

Actually, that is not so far from the truth.

akevalion

Re: Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

In reply to this post by Stephane Ducasse-3

CONTENTS DELETED

The author has deleted this message.

Stephane Ducasse-3

Re: Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

Thanks Milton!!!!!!!!!!!

Can you open issue on the bug tracker?

https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-launcher/issues

This way we are sure that it is not lost.

Stef

On Sat, Mar 17, 2018 at 11:17 PM, milton mamani <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I have issues with Pharo Launcher.
>
> Pharo Launcher version
> version 1.1.1
> http://files.pharo.org/pharo-launcher/tmp-1.1.1/
>
> version 1.1
> http://files.pharo.org/pharo-launcher/1.1/
>
> You can get these links in https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-launcher/
>
> OS Version
> Mac OS - 10.13.3
>
> Issues
>
> Issue #1, version 1.1 does not run in Mac OS - 10.13.3
> * Load P.L version 1.1
> * Copy the application in `Applications` folder
> * Try to open the program, with right-click, open
> * Current result the program P.L. does not run.
>
> Issue #2 Can not open/run downloaded images
> * Load P.L version 1.1.1
> * Copy the application in `Applications` folder
> * Open the program, first time the program does not run
> * Open again the program, now the program shows a window
> * Try to load a pharo image, In `Templates` >> `Official distributions`>>
> `Pharo 6.1 stable`.
> * Right-click in the pharo image, then select option `Create Image`
> * A popup ask for a name
> * Introduce one name, eg: `PImage`
> * A loading process appears
> * Try to run the image with button `Launch`
> * Current result the image `PImage` does not run, and P.L. 1.1.1 quit on
> that launch.
>
> Issue #3 Pharo debugger error appear when navigating in templates
> * load P.L version 1.1.1
> * Open the P.L
> * In templates area, try to load some templates
> * Then select one template
> * A debugger error window appears with the message #selectMorphList was
> sent to nil
> * Current result: Sometimes when you try to load and select some templates
> an error window appear
>
> Please tell me If you need more details about these issues
>
>
>
> 2018-03-17 16:42 GMT-03:00 Stephane Ducasse <[hidden email]>:
>>
>> On Sat, Mar 17, 2018 at 12:59 PM, Alexandre Bergel
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > Yesterday we also experienced many problem when using Launcher on OSX
>> > :-(
>>
>> Which version of Launcher?
>> Which version of your OS?
>> What problems?
>> Can we reproduce it?
>>
>> Could we get pro in reporting problems?
>>
>>
>> > Is the Launcher still maintained?
>>
>> Alexandre
>>
>> Christophe spent two months fixing tons of issues.
>> So could you report problems in a nicer way?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >
>> > Alexandre
>> >
>> >
>> >> On Mar 17, 2018, at 8:57 AM, kmo <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I tried the default download of Pharo Launcher on my Windows 7 (32 bit)
>> >> PC at
>> >> work. It installs. Runs fine - creates images and vms but when you try
>> >> to
>> >> run them nothing happens. It fails to start the selected image. It just
>> >> fails to run the vm at all as far as I can see.
>> >>
>> >> I tried it on my Windows 10 (32 bit) laptop and got exactly the same
>> >> result.
>> >>
>> >> This is not important for me as I use pharo on Linux - but I thought
>> >> I'd
>> >> point it out. If having the launcher as the default download causes
>> >> more
>> >> problems than the traditional vm and image download then perhaps it
>> >> should
>> >> be reconsidered. A pity since I love the launcher.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Sent from:
>> >> http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Developers-f1294837.html
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>

Tudor Girba-2

Re: Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

In reply to this post by Ben Coman

+1

Doru

> On Mar 17, 2018, at 2:26 PM, Ben Coman <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>
> On 17 March 2018 at 19:57, kmo <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I tried the default download of Pharo Launcher on my Windows 7 (32 bit) PC at
> work. It installs. Runs fine - creates images and vms but when you try to
> run them nothing happens. It fails to start the selected image. It just
> fails to run the vm at all as far as I can see.
>
> I tried it on my Windows 10 (32 bit) laptop and got exactly the same result.
>
> This is not important for me as I use pharo on Linux - but I thought I'd
> point it out. If having the launcher as the default download causes more
> problems than the traditional vm and image download then perhaps it should
> be reconsidered. A pity since I love the launcher.
>
> We've seen before when features are promoted in visibility (e.g. each GT tool)
> they come under more scrutiny and bump a wider set of environments
> that cause hiccups. Ultimately this feedback is beneficial to the tool.
> So I don't think there is any need to panic into a reversal.
> Lets give a chance to work through the issues.
>
> (but it might be good for the older links to be also available further down the page
> while Launcher issues are sorted out)
>
> cheers -ben

--
www.tudorgirba.com
www.feenk.com

"Yesterday is a fact.
Tomorrow is a possibility.
Today is a challenge."

Tudor Girba-2

Re: Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

In reply to this post by Stephane Ducasse-3

+1

Doru

> On Mar 18, 2018, at 10:30 AM, Stephane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Thanks Milton!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> Can you open issue on the bug tracker?
>
> https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-launcher/issues
>
> This way we are sure that it is not lost.
>
> Stef
>
> On Sat, Mar 17, 2018 at 11:17 PM, milton mamani <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I have issues with Pharo Launcher.
>>
>> Pharo Launcher version
>> version 1.1.1
>> http://files.pharo.org/pharo-launcher/tmp-1.1.1/
>>
>> version 1.1
>> http://files.pharo.org/pharo-launcher/1.1/
>>
>> You can get these links in https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-launcher/
>>
>> OS Version
>> Mac OS - 10.13.3
>>
>> Issues
>>
>> Issue #1, version 1.1 does not run in Mac OS - 10.13.3
>> * Load P.L version 1.1
>> * Copy the application in `Applications` folder
>> * Try to open the program, with right-click, open
>> * Current result the program P.L. does not run.
>>
>> Issue #2 Can not open/run downloaded images
>> * Load P.L version 1.1.1
>> * Copy the application in `Applications` folder
>> * Open the program, first time the program does not run
>> * Open again the program, now the program shows a window
>> * Try to load a pharo image, In `Templates` >> `Official distributions`>>
>> `Pharo 6.1 stable`.
>> * Right-click in the pharo image, then select option `Create Image`
>> * A popup ask for a name
>> * Introduce one name, eg: `PImage`
>> * A loading process appears
>> * Try to run the image with button `Launch`
>> * Current result the image `PImage` does not run, and P.L. 1.1.1 quit on
>> that launch.
>>
>> Issue #3 Pharo debugger error appear when navigating in templates
>> * load P.L version 1.1.1
>> * Open the P.L
>> * In templates area, try to load some templates
>> * Then select one template
>> * A debugger error window appears with the message #selectMorphList was
>> sent to nil
>> * Current result: Sometimes when you try to load and select some templates
>> an error window appear
>>
>> Please tell me If you need more details about these issues
>>
>>
>>
>> 2018-03-17 16:42 GMT-03:00 Stephane Ducasse <[hidden email]>:
>>>
>>> On Sat, Mar 17, 2018 at 12:59 PM, Alexandre Bergel
>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> Yesterday we also experienced many problem when using Launcher on OSX
>>>> :-(
>>>
>>> Which version of Launcher?
>>> Which version of your OS?
>>> What problems?
>>> Can we reproduce it?
>>>
>>> Could we get pro in reporting problems?
>>>
>>>
>>>> Is the Launcher still maintained?
>>>
>>> Alexandre
>>>
>>> Christophe spent two months fixing tons of issues.
>>> So could you report problems in a nicer way?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Alexandre
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Mar 17, 2018, at 8:57 AM, kmo <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I tried the default download of Pharo Launcher on my Windows 7 (32 bit)
>>>>> PC at
>>>>> work. It installs. Runs fine - creates images and vms but when you try
>>>>> to
>>>>> run them nothing happens. It fails to start the selected image. It just
>>>>> fails to run the vm at all as far as I can see.
>>>>>
>>>>> I tried it on my Windows 10 (32 bit) laptop and got exactly the same
>>>>> result.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is not important for me as I use pharo on Linux - but I thought
>>>>> I'd
>>>>> point it out. If having the launcher as the default download causes
>>>>> more
>>>>> problems than the traditional vm and image download then perhaps it
>>>>> should
>>>>> be reconsidered. A pity since I love the launcher.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Sent from:
>>>>> http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Developers-f1294837.html
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>

--
www.tudorgirba.com
www.feenk.com

"Every now and then stop and ask yourself if the war you're fighting is the right one."

cedreek

Re: Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

In reply to this post by Stephane Ducasse-3

On Sat, Mar 17, 2018 at 1:26 PM, Cédrick Béler <[hidden email]> wrote:
Little feedback too.

I was surprised by the new download as some students had to install on windows… hopefully, I had old win versions but it has disturbed me :)
Still handy and straightforward to just put an image on the VM.

But…this being said, I just tried on Mac and this works nicely and this is true that launcher makes the management of image clearer and easier..
I don’t know about windows but I have to care about as 98% of students uses Pharo on windows...

I was thinking of some adjustments:
1) maybe a default/advanced mode on the launcher to show only, as default, Mooc/PBE5/Official distributions.

did you see that the Launcher already includes this?
There is a Pharo Mooc item.

Yes but I was more thinking about hiding most of elements of the tree, especially Jenkins.

To me a newcomer only need to see (at first) official distributions + MOOC + PBE5.

I can’t find the official PBE5 image. It doesn’t seem to be the raw Pharo5 ?

If not present, is it possible to add it ? I think this is important (if doc cannot be updated) to keep the proper book related images.

2) a proper icon name to display in OS’s task bars.
When several image are opened, they should have different icons, at least different name when hovering, and not only Pharo.

The PharoLauncher should be named Pharo Launcher :).
Now we should get a nice icon.

Yes :)

I would go for a circle containing three circles (circle being the pharo logo like the quick pic hack below) :) => image all the way downs…

<PastedGraphic-4.png>

A more general feedback is about cloud drive OS’s (iCloud Drive, Dropbox, …).
I have 3 mac’s (pro and personal). I put often files in a directory that are synchronized across these devices.
- sometimes I get a message that an image are in different states
- sync image might be long (+changes) depending on network conditions

I think the question is important as the launcher download in the Document folder (OSX) and this directory is synchronized by default.
What do you think about such common situation ? What are your common practices ?
- lets says on two Macs and works on both
- or I use a dropbox folder

=> cloud drive are cool and my impression is that we could take a better advantage of them for data that could be shared between (personal) images (Play-Cache ? Packages-cache ? … )
==> would it be possible to have several files for one image (chunked over time so only the last chunk is modified and then less file would be synchronized) - (I don’t know at all if possible) ?
==> same for changes… but this one should be easier I think.

=> I also find longer to share pharo system the old ways - zipping (or not) via USB - I think git integration produces a large number of files that relies slows down system copy paste (if only image this is ok)…

No idea about that ?

I finally resolved to change the default image and VM dir…

Documents is syncing on Macs, and when your connection is slow… that’s quite problematics (especially when you do image experiments like trying to graphs more than 2Million objects ^^). I finally got my space low warning (I may retry on a better computer with a 64 bits image) ^^

Side note: ok image grows, but the default is about 200MB in memory for me (Launcher is 115MB here)… when you see safari tab being always more Thant 200MB (and this time I have only one opened tab which is rare)… Safari is not an exception, I find Pharo memory related concern still very reasonable (+ it will improve once the bootstrap is production ready).

Cheers,

Cédrick

Marcus Denker-4

Re: Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

In reply to this post by EstebanLM

> On 16 Mar 2018, at 16:41, Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> but thing is: default download should be the launcher.
> because this is the “newbie-friendly” approach.
>
> All the rest can be in under a link (or a subtitle, doesn’t matters).

It think that even that is a mistake: To give “newbies” a different download
than the “people that know better" is *wrong*.

Marcus

Marcus Denker-4

Re: Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

In reply to this post by Ben Coman

Hi,

I'm really glad PharoLauncher has been promoted to the download page,
but it seems some people want to push PharoLauncher to *be* Pharo.
To me this seems a poor strategy.

The README file in the PharoLauncher zip downloads says...
"Pharo 1.1-2018.01.16 This distribution was built January 16, 2018."

This seems strange to me and highly likely to confuse newcomers.
Pharo 1.1 more than a few years old. How can something built in 2018 be named "Pharo 1.1" ?

And if PharoLauncher is instead published as Pharo 7, then it seems strange to use it to run Pharo 5 images and later Pharo 8 images.
Why not have the Downloads page just say "The recommended way to manage Pharo downloads is with PharoLauncher"
and allow PharoLauncher to exist as a separate entity. This would be similar similar to those applications where you download
an initial 500kB installer, which then grabs the other 100MB from the net to complete the install.

Also, when maybe one day we can use Pharo as a command line shell, how will that relate to PharoLauncher being presented "as" Pharo.

What is clear is that people use many images anyway. And the more machines get bigger, this will happen even more.

So any download can only be “the VM + a Template image”.

=> when you just start “Pharo” it starts the template (read only)

=> drag an image (or double click) -> opens that image.

To make that work for real we would need to have one release per version (Pharo6, Pharo7, Pharo8) that you install…

The launcher is a similar scheme that I think could be even better, it adds:

- easy find images online

- manage your images (you do not need to use it, you can just use the UI of your OS instead, too).

- manage VMs in addition.

- which means that it is just one download that people need to install to be able to run all old images, too.

So I think if can be quite nice… it needs some iterations

- simplify the UI so people know what todo when they see it the first time

- make sure it works everywhere

- Sign it so installation is easier

- We need something that the images that end up on disk do not have the bit set that make drag-n-drop fail.

- integrate command line: There should be a menu to write scripts to /usr/local/bin to run pharo images easily

- Longterm: we need 1-file images… a container that has the image itself + auxiliary stuff on “disk” but that is one file.

So for me this is a bit like docker: to use docker, you install docker on the mac. There is one way, it works.

Marcus

Guillermo Polito

Re: Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

If the launcher had a command line interface, I'd use it all the time :)

On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 10:15 AM, Marcus Denker <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi,

I'm really glad PharoLauncher has been promoted to the download page,
but it seems some people want to push PharoLauncher to *be* Pharo.
To me this seems a poor strategy.

The README file in the PharoLauncher zip downloads says...
"Pharo 1.1-2018.01.16 This distribution was built January 16, 2018."

This seems strange to me and highly likely to confuse newcomers.
Pharo 1.1 more than a few years old. How can something built in 2018 be named "Pharo 1.1" ?

And if PharoLauncher is instead published as Pharo 7, then it seems strange to use it to run Pharo 5 images and later Pharo 8 images.
Why not have the Downloads page just say "The recommended way to manage Pharo downloads is with PharoLauncher"
and allow PharoLauncher to exist as a separate entity. This would be similar similar to those applications where you download
an initial 500kB installer, which then grabs the other 100MB from the net to complete the install.

Also, when maybe one day we can use Pharo as a command line shell, how will that relate to PharoLauncher being presented "as" Pharo.

What is clear is that people use many images anyway. And the more machines get bigger, this will happen even more.

So any download can only be “the VM + a Template image”.
=> when you just start “Pharo” it starts the template (read only)
=> drag an image (or double click) -> opens that image.

To make that work for real we would need to have one release per version (Pharo6, Pharo7, Pharo8) that you install…

The launcher is a similar scheme that I think could be even better, it adds:

- easy find images online
- manage your images (you do not need to use it, you can just use the UI of your OS instead, too).
- manage VMs in addition.
- which means that it is just one download that people need to install to be able to run all old images, too.

So I think if can be quite nice… it needs some iterations

- simplify the UI so people know what todo when they see it the first time
- make sure it works everywhere
- Sign it so installation is easier
- We need something that the images that end up on disk do not have the bit set that make drag-n-drop fail.
- integrate command line: There should be a menu to write scripts to /usr/local/bin to run pharo images easily
- Longterm: we need 1-file images… a container that has the image itself + auxiliary stuff on “disk” but that is one file.

So for me this is a bit like docker: to use docker, you install docker on the mac. There is one way, it works.

Marcus

Guille Polito

Research Engineer

Centre de Recherche en Informatique, Signal et Automatique de Lille

CRIStAL - UMR 9189

French National Center for Scientific Research - http://www.cnrs.fr

Web: http://guillep.github.io

Phone: +33 06 52 70 66 13

cedreek

Re: Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

CLI is cool too but it quickly becomes a mess for me ^^

Just loving the launcher on the Mac… +100 for me to push it.

Still, the CLI should be available and probably the better way to launch one specific image.

My 2 cents,

Cédrick

cedreek

Re: Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

In reply to this post by Marcus Denker-4

>
>
>
>> On 16 Mar 2018, at 16:41, Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> but thing is: default download should be the launcher.
>> because this is the “newbie-friendly” approach.
>>
>> All the rest can be in under a link (or a subtitle, doesn’t matters).
>
> It think that even that is a mistake: To give “newbies” a different download
> than the “people that know better" is *wrong*.
>
> Marcus

What about having normal/advance mode to shore more or less images ? Official bistro + documentation/book images ? Then the whole stuff.

Cheers,

Cédrick

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