Feature request poll

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Re: Feature request poll

Eliot Miranda-2



On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 10:01 AM, GOUBIER Thierry <[hidden email]> wrote:
I find this debate interesting... but a bit strange

For me, Smalltalk-80 is what is inside the 80's book, and no implementation of Smalltalk was really Smalltalk-80 but something else (some principles plus a huge amount of code)... Pharo is no more different from Smalltalk-80 than all the others were, and, compared to Self, Pharo looks like a very tame variant :)

So for me, Pharo will stay Pharo Smalltalk: a member of a large family which I had the pleasure to work in and use for a very long time, and in many different shapes but still respecting the same core principles.

+1.  Saying Pharo is not a Smalltalk is clearly absurd.  At the risk of getting into a "what have the romans done for us?" thread, I'll say the following.   The syntax is a superset of Smalltalk-80 (additions being literal ByteArrays, pragmas, class messages for creating weak arrays & ephemerons).  The class library is a superset of Smalltalk-80 plus bug fixes.  The only significant extensions are closures, exceptions and traits, but exceptions and traits, much like Dan Ingall's and Alan Borning's multiple inheritance implementation in Smalltalk-80 is done in the language.  Closures are nicer than SMalltalk-80 blocks, but they're the same essential light-weight lambda idea with somewhat improved semantics, and all that was wrong with Smalltalk-80 blocks was the lack of reentrancy.

A language like Newspeak is "Smalltalk-inspired".  It differs significantly (semantics: nested classes, lexically-scoped outer sends, mixins, syntax: ability to elide self, initialization of temps with their declaration).  I don't see the point of saying Pharo is not Smalltalk.  I see the point of saying Pharo is not Squeak, and I thoguht that was the point.  But saying Pharo is not Smalltalk is petty larceny.
 

Thierry

________________________________________
De : Pharo-dev [[hidden email]] de la part de Sean P. DeNigris [[hidden email]]
Date d'envoi : mardi 5 novembre 2013 17:53
À : [hidden email]
Objet : Re: [Pharo-dev] Feature request poll

Tudor Girba-2 wrote
> Pharo is Pharo. And we should promote it like that.

It is inherently confusing because originally "Smalltalk" meant "a
language/environment that's continually reinvented every 4 years based on
the knowledge gained by the last iteration". Then, Smalltalk-80 was frozen
and released, and "Smalltalk" was repurposed in the wider world as a
shorthand for Smalltalk-80. So, one would be correct in saying that Pharo is
Smalltalk in the original meaning, as the next iteration after 80 (although
it missed the 4 year target by a bit ha ha).

But, since the nearly universal understanding of "Smalltalk" is
Smalltalk-80, the "more true" and practical choice is to say that Pharo is
Smalltalk-inspired (i.e. inspired by Smalltalk-80, but clearly not
Smalltalk-80).

HTH.



-----
Cheers,
Sean
--
View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Feature-request-poll-tp4718993p4719415.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.





--
best,
Eliot
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Re: Feature request poll

Paul DeBruicker
For whomever wonders what "what have the romans ever done for us" is about watch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9foi342LXQE


you can stop around 2:10
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Re: Feature request poll

Goubier Thierry
Don't even need to follow the link to guess where that comes from :):):)

The text transcription: http://www.epicure.demon.co.uk/whattheromans.html

Thierry

Le 06/11/2013 01:28, Paul DeBruicker a écrit :

> For whomever wonders what "what have the romans ever done for us" is about
> watch:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9foi342LXQE
>
>
> you can stop around 2:10
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Feature-request-poll-tp4718993p4719475.html
> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>

--
Thierry Goubier
CEA list
Laboratoire des Fondations des Systèmes Temps Réel Embarqués
91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex
France
Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92 / 83 95

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Re: Feature request poll

kilon.alios
I can only speak on behalf of newcomers as I am a newcomer myself, that I dont care if Pharo is smalltalk, a dialect, a byproduct , a hybrid, alien technology. What I care is that is well supported (bug wise), friendly community (forums), actively developed (updates/ bug fixes), stable enough, a breath of fresh air (who wants to use the same stuff) and sufficiently documented. See what I did there I did not even mention the language nor the environment. 

I am happy that Pharo is all these things, the fact that is smalltalk or a dialect of it, is just a happy accident ;) 


On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 10:17 AM, Goubier Thierry <[hidden email]> wrote:
Don't even need to follow the link to guess where that comes from :):):)

The text transcription: http://www.epicure.demon.co.uk/whattheromans.html

Thierry

Le 06/11/2013 01:28, Paul DeBruicker a écrit :

For whomever wonders what "what have the romans ever done for us" is about
watch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9foi342LXQE


you can stop around 2:10



--
View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Feature-request-poll-tp4718993p4719475.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.



--
Thierry Goubier
CEA list
Laboratoire des Fondations des Systèmes Temps Réel Embarqués
91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex
France
Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92 / 83 95


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Re: Feature request poll

Janko Mivšek
Hi Kilon,

Dne 06. 11. 2013 12:00, piše kilon alios:
> I can only speak on behalf of newcomers as I am a newcomer myself, that
> I dont care if Pharo is smalltalk, a dialect, a byproduct , a hybrid,
> alien technology.

But you found Pharo because you were firstly interested in Smalltalk? If
Pharo wouldn't be Smalltalk, would you still found it the same way as
you did?

Best regards
Janko


What I care is that is well supported (bug wise),

> friendly community (forums), actively developed (updates/ bug fixes),
> stable enough, a breath of fresh air (who wants to use the same stuff)
> and sufficiently documented. See what I did there I did not even mention
> the language nor the environment.
>
> I am happy that Pharo is all these things, the fact that is smalltalk or
> a dialect of it, is just a happy accident ;)
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 10:17 AM, Goubier Thierry <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     Don't even need to follow the link to guess where that comes from :):):)
>
>     The text transcription:
>     http://www.epicure.demon.co.__uk/whattheromans.html
>     <http://www.epicure.demon.co.uk/whattheromans.html>
>
>     Thierry
>
>     Le 06/11/2013 01:28, Paul DeBruicker a écrit :
>
>         For whomever wonders what "what have the romans ever done for
>         us" is about
>         watch:
>
>         http://www.youtube.com/watch?__v=9foi342LXQE
>         <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9foi342LXQE>
>
>
>         you can stop around 2:10
>
>
>
>         --
>         View this message in context:
>         http://forum.world.st/Feature-__request-poll-__tp4718993p4719475.html
>         <http://forum.world.st/Feature-request-poll-tp4718993p4719475.html>
>         Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at
>         Nabble.com.
>
>
>
>     --
>     Thierry Goubier
>     CEA list
>     Laboratoire des Fondations des Systèmes Temps Réel Embarqués
>     91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex
>     France
>     Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92 / 83 95
>

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Re: Feature request poll

kilon.alios
Nope quite the contrary. I came to pharo because I was interested in emacs.

I am doing coding for fun for 23 years now, I have used and messed around with most popular languages out there and in that time I never heard of Smalltalk nor I heard people mention it apart from a year or so ago someone in #emacs irc channel, after my complain that I love emacs (was using it for python coding) but I prefer GUIs he replied "maybe you should try squeak". And from squeak I came to pharo.  I was python coder at the time and very happy one, so I had no intention of switching languages. I was just learning lisp because I wanted to find out what was the big deal with it since I knew several coders that made a lot of noise about it. 

I remained with it because for me Pharo unites two of my favorite development tools, python language and Delphi IDE. So no it was definitely not Smalltalk that brought me here and I suspect for most people applies the same apply since smalltalk is very unpopular.  What brought me was emacs, python and delphi. 


On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 1:08 PM, Janko Mivšek <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Kilon,

Dne 06. 11. 2013 12:00, piše kilon alios:
> I can only speak on behalf of newcomers as I am a newcomer myself, that
> I dont care if Pharo is smalltalk, a dialect, a byproduct , a hybrid,
> alien technology.

But you found Pharo because you were firstly interested in Smalltalk? If
Pharo wouldn't be Smalltalk, would you still found it the same way as
you did?

Best regards
Janko


What I care is that is well supported (bug wise),
> friendly community (forums), actively developed (updates/ bug fixes),
> stable enough, a breath of fresh air (who wants to use the same stuff)
> and sufficiently documented. See what I did there I did not even mention
> the language nor the environment.
>
> I am happy that Pharo is all these things, the fact that is smalltalk or
> a dialect of it, is just a happy accident ;)
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 10:17 AM, Goubier Thierry <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     Don't even need to follow the link to guess where that comes from :):):)
>
>     The text transcription:
>     http://www.epicure.demon.co.__uk/whattheromans.html
>     <http://www.epicure.demon.co.uk/whattheromans.html>
>
>     Thierry
>
>     Le 06/11/2013 01:28, Paul DeBruicker a écrit :
>
>         For whomever wonders what "what have the romans ever done for
>         us" is about
>         watch:
>
>         http://www.youtube.com/watch?__v=9foi342LXQE
>         <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9foi342LXQE>
>
>
>         you can stop around 2:10
>
>
>
>         --
>         View this message in context:
>         http://forum.world.st/Feature-__request-poll-__tp4718993p4719475.html
>         <http://forum.world.st/Feature-request-poll-tp4718993p4719475.html>
>         Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at
>         Nabble.com.
>
>
>
>     --
>     Thierry Goubier
>     CEA list
>     Laboratoire des Fondations des Systèmes Temps Réel Embarqués
>     91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex
>     France
>     Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92 / 83 95
>


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