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lanas

Fonts in Linux

Hello,

Is there a way to actually have solid-looking fonts when the latest
VisualWorks runs in Linux (Fedora 8 and 11, x86_64 in this case) ?

By solid-looking I mean full body fonts that are not whimperish or
wavy, but just plain fonts like all the other applications are using.

I'm aware of the virtual machine isolation from the system and how
that might complicate using native fonts. But on the other hand Squeak
does it. Using the font option in Squeak it is possible to have fonts
that are pleasing to look at, at any size, for all the environment.
For instance Bitstream Vera Sans normal 12 points which is full
and non-wavery.

Is there rather a license problem in using such fonts ? VisualWorks
would so much better with fonts that are actually nice to look at.

6 years ago I tried it and even went to the extent of interfacing
with the company's extensive C-based message passing library (thanks to
the VisualWorks documentation which is very good) in an attempt to
get people interested but the looks of the application (including the
development environment) was not that great at all as it looked
odd when compared to native apps. Even though the most important is
Smalltalk itself and OO principles, the looks are quite important IMHO.

6 years later I'm back at spending some time in Smalltalk. I
found I really like the language and the way it express
object-orientation. VisualWorks provides a professional development
solution.

So please let me know if there's a way to actually configure the
latest VisualWorks so that it can have good fonts.

Cheers.
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Alan Knight-3

Re: Fonts in Linux

It is using native fonts. Unfortunately, you use words like "just plain fonts", and there is no such thing. Fonts are complicated beasts.

The likely problem you're seeing are that, first off, VisualWorks currently uses the basic X font mechanism. That means it doesn't find anti-aliased fonts, but I wouldn't think that would lead to fonts that were "whimperish or wavy". So it might also be that it's not finding a good font match on your system. It certainly doesn't sound like what I normally see as fonts under Linux. I know that Fedora recently removed the x.org fonts. Reinstalling those might lead to better font choices. In older versions, their absence led to it not finding a font successfully at all.

At 08:26 AM 2010-02-08, lanas wrote:

Hello,

Is there a way to actually have solid-looking fonts when the latest
VisualWorks runs in Linux (Fedora 8 and 11, x86_64 in this case) ?

By solid-looking I mean full body fonts that are not whimperish or
wavy, but just plain fonts like all the other applications are using.

I'm aware of the virtual machine isolation from the system and how
that might complicate using native fonts. But on the other hand Squeak
does it. Using the font option in Squeak it is possible to have fonts
that are pleasing to look at, at any size, for all the environment.
For instance Bitstream Vera Sans normal 12 points which is full
and non-wavery.

Is there rather a license problem in using such fonts ? VisualWorks
would so much better with fonts that are actually nice to look at.

6 years ago I tried it and even went to the extent of interfacing
with the company's extensive C-based message passing library (thanks to
the VisualWorks documentation which is very good) in an attempt to
get people interested but the looks of the application (including the
development environment) was not that great at all as it looked
odd when compared to native apps. Even though the most important is
Smalltalk itself and OO principles, the looks are quite important IMHO.

6 years later I'm back at spending some time in Smalltalk. I
found I really like the language and the way it express
object-orientation. VisualWorks provides a professional development
solution.

So please let me know if there's a way to actually configure the
latest VisualWorks so that it can have good fonts.

Cheers.
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Alan Knight [|], Engineering Manager, Cincom Smalltalk

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http://www.cincom.com/smalltalk

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Travis Griggs-3

Re: Fonts in Linux

On Feb 8, 2010, at 6:29 AM, Alan Knight wrote:

> It is using native fonts. Unfortunately, you use words like "just
> plain fonts", and there is no such thing. Fonts are complicated
> beasts.

Or more particularly, in this case, font APIs (in the X11 world) are
complicated beasts. VisualWorks is one of the few remaining
applications that *is* using "just plain" font APIs, and that is why
you see jagged fonts that are not antialiased.
Over time, what has happened, is that first there was XFT (which took
advantage of xrender extensions among other X developments), which was
a separate API/library for rendering AA fonts. Font matching has been
mostly offloaded to utilities like fontconfig. And then XFT grew "old
hat" and is now replaced mostly by services within particular ADEs.
Things such as Pango, GTK, etc. IIRC, Firefox, kind of had their own.
Many of them share sub parts (either via linking or by copy/paste). In
the world of Windows and OSX, they just changed/extended the existing
APIs one night to try and do the right thing by AA text rendering.
What complicates the story for VisualWorks, is that while it runs via
an X11 interface on Linux, it does so on other *nix platforms, such as
AIX or Solaris, where the likelihood of finding these same ADE
libraries is less likely (or old misbehaven installs, like fontconfig
was on solaris for some time).

If want to read some well written (imo) treatises on the state of
affairs in font rendering in the X11 world, both of these papers are
good reads:

http://behdad.org/text/

http://freddie.witherden.org/pages/font-rasterisation/

None of this is meant as an excuse per se. More of an explanation as
to why we're in the pickle we are with X11 font rasterization. That
something needs to happen to make things better is fully agreed.

> The likely problem you're seeing are that, first off, VisualWorks
> currently uses the basic X font mechanism. That means it doesn't
> find anti-aliased fonts, but I wouldn't think that would lead to
> fonts that were "whimperish or wavy". So it might also be that it's
> not finding a good font match on your system. It certainly doesn't
> sound like what I normally see as fonts under Linux. I know that
> Fedora recently removed the x.org fonts. Reinstalling those might
> lead to better font choices. In older versions, their absence led to
> it not finding a font successfully at all.
>
> At 08:26 AM 2010-02-08, lanas wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> Is there a way to actually have solid-looking fonts when the latest
>> VisualWorks runs in Linux (Fedora 8 and 11, x86_64 in this case) ?
>>
>> By solid-looking I mean full body fonts that are not whimperish or
>> wavy, but just plain fonts like all the other applications are using.
>>
>> I'm aware of the virtual machine isolation from the system and how
>> that might complicate using native fonts. But on the other hand
>> Squeak
>> does it. Using the font option in Squeak it is possible to have
>> fonts
>> that are pleasing to look at, at any size, for all the environment.
>> For instance Bitstream Vera Sans normal 12 points which is full
>> and non-wavery.
>>
>> Is there rather a license problem in using such fonts ?
>> VisualWorks
>> would so much better with fonts that are actually nice to look at.
>>
>> 6 years ago I tried it and even went to the extent of interfacing
>> with the company's extensive C-based message passing library
>> (thanks to
>> the VisualWorks documentation which is very good) in an attempt to
>> get people interested but the looks of the application (including the
>> development environment) was not that great at all as it looked
>> odd when compared to native apps. Even though the most important is
>> Smalltalk itself and OO principles, the looks are quite important
>> IMHO.
>>
>> 6 years later I'm back at spending some time in Smalltalk. I
>> found I really like the language and the way it express
>> object-orientation. VisualWorks provides a professional development
>> solution.
>>
>> So please let me know if there's a way to actually configure the
>> latest VisualWorks so that it can have good fonts.
>>
>> Cheers.

--
Travis Griggs
Objologist
"The project was so plagued by politics and ego that when the
engineers requested technical oversight, our manager hired a
psychologist instead." -- Ron Avitzur

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lanas

Re: Fonts in Linux

Le Lundi, 8 Février 2010 12:46:08 -0800,
Travis Griggs <[hidden email]> a écrit :

> > At 08:26 AM 2010-02-08, lanas wrote:
> >> Is there a way to actually have solid-looking fonts when the
> >> latest VisualWorks runs in Linux (Fedora 8 and 11, x86_64 in this
> >> case) ?

> On Feb 8, 2010, at 6:29 AM, Alan Knight wrote:

>> It is using native fonts. Unfortunately, you use words like "just
>> plain fonts", and there is no such thing. Fonts are complicated
>> beasts.

> Or more particularly, in this case, font APIs (in the X11 world) are
> complicated beasts. VisualWorks is one of the few remaining
> applications that *is* using "just plain" font APIs, and that is why
> you see jagged fonts that are not antialiased.

Thanks for the explanation.

Is there a block on the VisualWorks roadmap where an update of the font
system is planned ? The Squeak people sure got it right (although
Pharo does not, yet).

It would be very nice to have a good-looking VW environment (and apps!)
on Linux.

Regards,

Al

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Alan Knight-3

Re: Fonts in Linux

We would like to do an update of the X11 fonts (and of various other things about the font system in general) but we do not at this point having a schedule we're willing to commit to.

I'm curious exactly what you're looking for in fonts. You cite the Squeak people as getting it right, which seems like it means you just want the basic system font to look nice, and you're not really worried about access to native fonts, or being the same as other applications. But you also talked about behaving like other applications, and using "just plain" fonts. As I understand it, Squeak has its own implementation of truetype fonts, and renders them as bitmaps pretty much by itself. So, for example, you mention "Bitstream Vera Sans" as looking good in Squeak under Fedora. That's not a font which is available on Fedora by default. At least it doesn't appear in my Fedora install. So either you've installed it as an additional font, or it's one that Squeak has entirely within itself. From what I understand it's more likely the latter.

At some level it doesn't really matter. I suspect you, and many others users, would just like the X11 fonts to be anti-aliased, and would just prefer not to have to worry too much about the details of fonts, or why that might be complicated.

At 02:32 PM 2010-02-13, lanas wrote:

Le Lundi, 8 FÃ©vrier 2010 12:46:08 -0800, Travis Griggs <[hidden email]> a Ã©crit : > > At 08:26 AM 2010-02-08, lanas wrote: > >> Is there a way to actually have solid-looking fonts when the > >> latest VisualWorks runs in Linux (Fedora 8 and 11, x86_64 in this > >> case) ? > On Feb 8, 2010, at 6:29 AM, Alan Knight wrote: >> It is using native fonts. Unfortunately, you use words like "just >> plain fonts", and there is no such thing. Fonts are complicated >> beasts. > Or more particularly, in this case, font APIs (in the X11 world) are > complicated beasts. VisualWorks is one of the few remaining > applications that *is* using "just plain" font APIs, and that is why > you see jagged fonts that are not antialiased. Thanks for the explanation. Is there a block on the VisualWorks roadmap where an update of the font system is planned ? The Squeak people sure got it right (although Pharo does not, yet). It would be very nice to have a good-looking VW environment (and apps!) on Linux. Regards, Al _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc

Alan Knight [|], Engineering Manager, Cincom Smalltalk

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http://www.cincom.com/smalltalk

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David Siegel-6

[7.7] LinuxSymlinkSupport, 32bit images and Ubuntu 64

I'm using 7.7nc 32-bit on Ubuntu 9.04 64bit.

I'd like to use the contrib package LinuxSymlinkSupport, but a call to Filename>>isSymlink fails, claiming that stat is not understood.

'stat' should be the definition of the Unix struct stat, defined in the standard Unix API.

I don't see any definition of stat in the LinuxSymlinkSupport parcel, and I don't see
any reference to any header files. So, I don't see how LinuxSymlinkSupport could have
gotten access to the stat structure definition. Unless I'm missing something, I don't
see how this version of the parcel could have been complete.

Has anybody used this parcel on 7.7?

I've modified the Class LinuxSymlinkSupport to reference the 32-bit libc.so, and confirmed that it bound to the right library, so I think I'm good to go, if I can get a definition
of the stat structure.

Any words of wisdom about using DLLCC on 64bit linux to build 32-bit structure definitions? Alternatively, is there any simple way to find out what the binary image
of the 32-bit stat structure is (once all the conditionals and macros and typedefs are resolved) -- if I knew that, I could just define the structure with DLLCC.

Thanks,
-dms

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Jan Weerts

Re: Fonts in Linux

In reply to this post by Alan Knight-3

Hi Alan!

Alan Knight wrote:
> We would like to do an update of the X11 fonts (and of various
> other things about the font system in general) but we do not at
> this point having a schedule we're willing to commit to.
>
> I'm curious exactly what you're looking for in fonts.

The question was not directed to me, but I also have one or two wishes
concerning fonts. Here the most frustrating aspect of VW font handling
on Linux: for me is its tendency to totally refuse to start up on
certain X window managers. I do not say, that these are always
configured correctly, but I have never seen a pickier primadonna
application that does not even start up, when its favorite fonts are
somehow broken. One could argue, that the environment needs to be
correct to function correctly, but I wonder, why other applications
are not so picky and why VW is not even capable of logging its problem
in a way, that indicates to a user of the app (usually not the
administrator of the machine), what the problem is.

These kinds of problems date back (at least for us) to 2003, the last
incarnation about a week ago with a 7.6 app and an Exceed X server.
One culprit seemed to be ArborTextAttributes>>updateLineGridding and
the bowels thereof. After capturing errors here, something else blew
up and we changed the X server, because we ran out of time for further
diagnosis and patching.

I consider this basics. Since I am not a regular VW-on-Linux user the
pixeled fonts do not annoy me often enough, so this point does not
make it to the same priority as startup problems. But as an indicator:
in this shop all the regular (as in every day) developers on VW use
Windows, while irregular VW developers use 40% Windows and 60% Linux.

Regards
Jan

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Alan Knight-3

Re: Fonts in Linux

Thanks. That's a good point. I think there are some improvements in 7.7 that help with this, but it's still something that could use a good deal of improvement.

At 03:49 AM 2010-02-15, Jan Weerts wrote:

Hi Alan!

Alan Knight wrote:

We would like to do an update of the X11 fonts (and of various
other things about the font system in general) but we do not at
this point having a schedule we're willing to commit to.
I'm curious exactly what you're looking for in fonts.

The question was not directed to me, but I also have one or two wishes concerning fonts. Here the most frustrating aspect of VW font handling on Linux: for me is its tendency to totally refuse to start up on certain X window managers. I do not say, that these are always configured correctly, but I have never seen a pickier primadonna application that does not even start up, when its favorite fonts are somehow broken. One could argue, that the environment needs to be correct to function correctly, but I wonder, why other applications are not so picky and why VW is not even capable of logging its problem in a way, that indicates to a user of the app (usually not the administrator of the machine), what the problem is.

These kinds of problems date back (at least for us) to 2003, the last incarnation about a week ago with a 7.6 app and an Exceed X server. One culprit seemed to be ArborTextAttributes>>updateLineGridding and the bowels thereof. After capturing errors here, something else blew up and we changed the X server, because we ran out of time for further diagnosis and patching.

I consider this basics. Since I am not a regular VW-on-Linux user the pixeled fonts do not annoy me often enough, so this point does not make it to the same priority as startup problems. But as an indicator: in this shop all the regular (as in every day) developers on VW use Windows, while irregular VW developers use 40% Windows and 60% Linux.

Regards
Jan

Alan Knight [|], Engineering Manager, Cincom Smalltalk

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http://www.cincom.com/smalltalk

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Kooyman, Les

Re: Fonts in Linux

In reply to this post by Jan Weerts

Re: [vwnc] Fonts in Linux

Are there still examples of VW 7.7 not starting at all on certain LINUX distributions (with their standard installed fonts)?

If I introduce the request that we consider only LINUX distributions no older than 3 years in our problem set, is this still an issue?

To be fair, it's more than just a question of VW being "picky" about its fonts, when it won't start up at all, it has failed various sanity checks including #C locale with US-ASCII encoding. This shouldn't be happening on modern LINUX systems at all at this point. If it is, I'd like to know about it.

Handling this issue consistently (on reasonable distributions, no SLS 0.99 please) is an important precursor to improving font support overall.

Les Kooyman

Cincom

From: [hidden email] on behalf of Jan Weerts
Sent: Mon 2/15/2010 12:49 AM
To: Knight, Alan
Cc: VWNC List
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Fonts in Linux

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Jan Weerts

Re: Fonts in Linux

Hi Les!

Kooyman, Les wrote:
> Are there still examples of VW 7.7 not starting at all on certain
> LINUX distributions (with their standard installed fonts)?

I cannot give you an example of a Linux distribution and 7.7, but I
consider similar valid an X server and in this case vw7.6. In my
previous post I mentioned Exceed, which was wrong, instead it was
Xming version 6.9.0.31 (running on Windows XP). Please note, that
after installing the package "Xming-fonts 7.5.0.11" the VW app started.

The "remote X server" scenario is quite common for us. In this case
about 2GB of data had to be converted on the remote machine and we
wanted to avoid the download/upload cycle. Since the server machine
was Linux and the local users machine was Windows, the X Server was
the choice of the day.

A side note on remoting: we sometimes debug an image on a remote
Windows machines using the RDP tools provided with Windows. A nasty
uncommon but not rare problem is, that inspecting a variable from a
debugger window raises the inspector, which covers the debugger. This
creates a damage event which somehow breaks to be processed, which
raises a debugger above the first debugger, which creates a damage
event, ... which leads to a broken image in the end.

Regards
Jan

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Kooyman, Les

FW: Fonts in Linux

In reply to this post by Kooyman, Les

From: Kooyman, Les
Sent: Tue 2/16/2010 9:43 AM
To: Knight, Alan; Kazsoki, Janos
Subject: RE: [vwnc] Fonts in Linux

The Locale setting is set at startup in both VW 7.6 and 7.7, which locale set is used differs as a default.

Setting the locale, regardless of the method used in either version, is not persistent. As Alan suggests, if you need persistent behavior, you can override at startup, either of the image or your application.

You should reasonably beware of using encodings different from what the image thinks the operating system wants. In other words, the encoding choice set by VisualWorks at startup is usually what you want even if you change the territory and/or language.

Les Kooyman

Cincom

From: Knight, Alan
Sent: Tue 2/16/2010 7:23 AM
To: Kazsoki, Janos; Kooyman, Les
Subject: RE: [vwnc] Fonts in Linux

Locale set: is deprecated, as per the release notes.

The locale is set to the machine's locale on startup. I think this is the same behaviour we would have had in previous versions, and is reasonably a feature. Otherwise, if you started an image up on another machine in a different locale, or changed the locale of your machine, the image locale would never change.

If they want to force the locale to always be something, they should probably look at forcing the locale during startup.

At 06:04 AM 2010-02-16, Kazsoki, Janos wrote:

Les,

I have a customer case:

418342 areva AR59217Locale set aborts, Locale setSystemLocaleTo: #C looses the setting when image is re-started.

Can somebody have a look?

Thanks and best regards,
Janos

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Kooyman, Les
Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 11:24 PM
To: Jan Weerts; Knight, Alan
Cc: VWNC List
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Fonts in Linux

Are there still examples of VW 7.7 not starting at all on certain LINUX distributions (with their standard installed fonts)?

If I introduce the request that we consider only LINUX distributions no older than 3 years in our problem set, is this still an issue?

To be fair, it's more than just a question of VW being "picky" about its fonts, when it won't start up at all, it has failed various sanity checks including #C locale with US-ASCII encoding. This shouldn't be happening on modern LINUX systems at all at this point. If it is, I'd like to know about it.

Handling this issue consistently (on reasonable distributions, no SLS 0.99 please) is an important precursor to improving font support overall.

Les Kooyman
Cincom

From: [hidden email] on behalf of Jan Weerts
Sent: Mon 2/15/2010 12:49 AM
To: Knight, Alan
Cc: VWNC List
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Fonts in Linux

Hi Alan!

Alan Knight wrote:
> We would like to do an update of the X11 fonts (and of various
> other things about the font system in general) but we do not at
> this point having a schedule we're willing to commit to.
>
> I'm curious exactly what you're looking for in fonts.

The question was not directed to me, but I also have one or two wishes
concerning fonts. Here the most frustrating aspect of VW font handling
on Linux: for me is its tendency to totally refuse to start up on
certain X window managers. I do not say, that these are always
configured correctly, but I have never seen a pickier primadonna
application that does not even start up, when its favorite fonts are
somehow broken. One could argue, that the environment needs to be
correct to function correctly, but I wonder, why other applications
are not so picky and why VW is not even capable of logging its problem
in a way, that indicates to a user of the app (usually not the
administrator of the machine), what the problem is.

These kinds of problems date back (at least for us) to 2003, the last
incarnation about a week ago with a 7.6 app and an Exceed X server.
One culprit seemed to be ArborTextAttributes>>updateLineGridding and
the bowels thereof. After capturing errors here, something else blew
up and we changed the X server, because we ran out of time for further
diagnosis and patching.

I consider this basics. Since I am not a regular VW-on-Linux user the
pixeled fonts do not annoy me often enough, so this point does not
make it to the same priority as startup problems. But as an indicator:
in this shop all the regular (as in every day) developers on VW use
Windows, while irregular VW developers use 40% Windows and 60% Linux.

Regards
Jan

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Alan Knight [|], Engineering Manager, Cincom Smalltalk

[hidden email]

http://www.cincom.com/smalltalk

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Kooyman, Les

Re: Fonts in Linux

In reply to this post by Jan Weerts

Re: [vwnc] Fonts in Linux

Hmm. OK, This is an interesting wrinkle, but I'm sure it has occurred to you that this use case is not the same thing as when the image fails to start natively on the local machine's X server. I suspect that's the environment that we support. It's probably not far off the mark to say that in such a case it's the user's responsibility to make sure that the font environment is suitable.

That said, it probably would be nice if we could give you some guidance as to what needs to be available to allow the image to come up under a particular X Server environment so that the customer would have a chance to structure that environment to be usable.

Since we're revising documentation for 7.8, it would be a "good thing" if guidance of this sort could be added, and I will see about that.

I'll think some more about the issues induced by remote X Server support in general, but I'm not sure you'll see that sort of thing supported at the same level as running on the native X Server of the platform.

Les Kooyman

Cincom

From: Jan Weerts [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Tue 2/16/2010 5:28 AM
To: Kooyman, Les
Cc: Knight, Alan; VWNC List
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Fonts in Linux

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thomas.hawker

Re: Fonts in Linux

Re: [vwnc] Fonts in Linux

Les,

I must disagree with this assumption and suggest a reconsideration this assessment. While it is true that running from the local X server would be an absolutely minimum requirement, be aware that such may not be possible. In our environment, I do not have access to the host X Server – I must do all my work remotely through Hummingbird Exceed as the machines involved generally have no console and the few that do are all physical-access restricted. We are currently migrating some of our capabilities from Solaris to Linux (a RedHat version, I believe), making this an important issue of potential critical concern.

I imagine this is one of those cases where the solution should be “do the right thing,” though I’m not sure that it’s possible yet to completely quantify what “right” means here.

Cheers!

Tom Hawker
Senior Framework Developer
Home	+1 (408) 274-4128	The Environment: *We take it personally*
Office	+1 (408) 576-6591
Mobile	+1 (408) 835-3643

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Kooyman, Les
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 1:28 PM
To: Jan Weerts
Cc: VWNC List; Knight, Alan
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Fonts in Linux

Since we're revising documentation for 7.8, it would be a "good thing" if guidance of this sort could be added, and I will see about that.

Les Kooyman

Cincom

From: Jan Weerts [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Tue 2/16/2010 5:28 AM
To: Kooyman, Les
Cc: Knight, Alan; VWNC List
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Fonts in Linux

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