For those who use Nabble ....

Hi randall

Squeak can copy pharo' goals. There is no problem. We have always been clear - in fact since the Squeak world
tour.... back in 1998 - I was a big fan of John Sarkela, Paul and Joseph ideas.  We started Kernel Cleaning Project
in Squeak 3.5. You know removing all the Smalltalk at: everywhere. Cleaning browser and SystemDictionary (full of crap).
We wanted a clean and lean "smalltalk" that people can learn from and invent new worlds and make business.

I'm not sure that you know that but: We created (yes we goran, marcus, mike and me) the SqueakFoundation just to make
sure that Squeak could move on. We wanted a Doitocracy. And we left the foundation when it became clear that we were losing our time.
If you think about it we only forked once: some other people forked multiple times and I'm sure that you can access
by yourself the state of their communities. We want to have fun and trust in Pharo! I thank all the submissions and I try to learn
from them every day. We feel responsible for the system.

We burned our soul with 3.9 trying to maintain Squeak and we got bashed because we wanted to change and clean.
Now the exact same people are doing what we are doing since May 2008.
Perfect! This is that we are right :) Thanks to recognize we were and are right!

Now consider that Pharo is just at its enfancy.  Let's see in 5 years what we will have. We have the luxury to be able to
work on it during the next 10 years and we will. Sometimes I'm pestering that I would like to go way faster but
we were the first one to
        run a release (3.9) with MC,
        I was one of the first to push SUnit - I wrote one chapter so that people do not get afraid,
        push refactorings - some famous squeaker ask me why I was pushing refactoring and it was in 1998
        SmallLint (check my old columns and french book).
So quality is not something trendy for us. We believe in it!
We are building a school of thought: look at Lukas, Adrian, Marcus.... code quality and attitude.

We are working on a new pharo book with truly excellent contents - Stay tuned - This is fun that I'm the author that wrote the
most Squeak books finally (not counting our new cool seaside one). So I will have to beat my own record with pharo books. :)

Our goal is to make sure people can get a clean and lean infrastructure and to have more advanced features than Smalltalk.
Now we will not have Etoy/Nebraska/tiles/Projects/. Note even reloadable not because we do not like etoy
but the current implementation of etoys does not make it possible.

Stef

PS: I know that some people always like to shine and cannot miss any opportunity to call us Etoy Haters, or Commercial Smalltalkers
We can be bashed about SmalltalkImage current too. Our vision is the one described by eliot on minimal image and
remote access. We never changed our vision. We left to make it real after all the investment we did: video, books, community.
       
        Did you ever realize that we lost a lot but win more?

PSPS: Google is working on traits for JavaScript (probably in the next standard), Perl have them too, Fortress is exclusively based on them,
Ruby people are looking at classboxes.... so this is nice to see that other communitees recognize that we are generated good ideas.


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I think, if you really want to compare, you should look closer than what the two slogans say. Just one example: bugs.squeak.org currently has 2315 open issues...

Cheers,
Adrian

On Jan 27, 2010, at 17:39 , Randal L. Schwartz wrote:


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On Jan 27, 2010, at 6:53 PM, Adrian Lienhard wrote:

> I think, if you really want to compare, you should look closer than what the two slogans say. Just one example: bugs.squeak.org currently has 2315 open issues...
>


while we have 300 open issues and 1581 closed ones. The first report was submitted Jun 05, 2008.

1581 / (Date today - 'June 05, 2008' asDate) days asFloat

--> 2.63 bug reports closed *per day*.

        Marcus

--
Marcus Denker  -- http://www.marcusdenker.de
INRIA Lille -- Nord Europe. Team RMoD.


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On Wed, 27 Jan 2010, Adrian Lienhard wrote:

> I think, if you really want to compare, you should look closer than what the two slogans say. Just one example: bugs.squeak.org currently has 2315 open issues...

Does that number apply for the current squeak developement? Or did you
just look at the number on the "view_all_bug_page" with no filter applied
(which counts all the issues of other forks, external packages,
non-developement related tasks, old branches, etc.) and thought: hey
here's a big number, this will show how professional we are compared to
squeak?


Levente

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I do not want a war or competition. This is not positive thinking.
We have enough to do and I want fun.
I think that we have the history for us so let us reinvent the future.
The competitors are ruby, lua, python, groovy and many more.
We can learn a lot from them. Squeak situation forced us to do pharo
so let us advantage of that.

Stef


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Thanks, I posted a brief message on the GNU and Squeak (beginners) mailing lists.  Acting upon Janko's great suggestion I also asked Nabble support to help me get the mailing lists of VisualWorks and Swazoo moved here too

Nice one. Is it possible to get Metacello in the mix as well?
...Stan

Hi Geert, is there a separate ESUG list that is not under your Smalltalk Nabble umbrella yet?

The Google SOC thing got very confusing very quickly; depending on who is subscribed to which list, you may or may not see bits of a thread. (less of an issue if you're viewing on Nabble). Do we need an overall Smalltalk list to be used in cases like this?

...Stan

Hi Stan, To my knowledge there is no ESUG list yet but I have to say that I was just wondering the same thing since Janko and Mariano now have to cross-post to communicate any GSoC messages for those not using Nabble.   Maybe ESUG can create a Google Group so I can add it to Nabble too?